Correct Scale Of Tow Chains
04-14-2010, 08:57 PM
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RE: Correct Scale Of Tow Chains
What if these tow chains were not use for the purpose of towing vehicles?
Would it be unrealistic that one tank in a random unit....carried one set of tow chains for a special purpose, such as dragging downed trees out of the way to clear a path for the rest of the unit? Is this not a possibility? This is what I had in mind for the reason of chains, since I've seen random photos of tanks dragging rolled up fencing and various other things.
If this is absolutely an unlikely scenario, then fine. I'd scratch the use of chains on my Tiger...but to me, it seems plausible.
Would it be unrealistic that one tank in a random unit....carried one set of tow chains for a special purpose, such as dragging downed trees out of the way to clear a path for the rest of the unit? Is this not a possibility? This is what I had in mind for the reason of chains, since I've seen random photos of tanks dragging rolled up fencing and various other things.
If this is absolutely an unlikely scenario, then fine. I'd scratch the use of chains on my Tiger...but to me, it seems plausible.
04-15-2010, 08:23 AM
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RE: Correct Scale Of Tow Chains
No chains for towing in Tigers, never, only cables and/or rigid bars, but as Pattoncommander has already stated, the chain needed for towing a vehicle of nearly 60 T would be gigantic....
Uhu
Uhu
04-15-2010, 02:52 PM
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RE: Correct Scale Of Tow Chains
ORIGINAL: pattoncommander
Chains for towing on a vehicle over 10-12 tons is extremely dangerous. Chains will break and kink unless you have chains so thick, that it would make them too heavy and ungainly to handle or to carry on an already overloaded tank. Tank retrievers always carried chains, and some smaller guage chains were used to secure heavy items such as tow bars or ditching logs. They were occasionally used to fashion a foothold on tanks that were difficult to mount. Chains seen on some German tanks were used for this purpose or for dragging smaller vehicles such as cars, trucks and guns that did not have a corresponding tow pintle and had to dragged along. A well made tow cable is much lighter, easier to handle and tougher than a chain. I have seen tow cables snap resulting in a death, and for that reason, they are always used in pairs crossed....left to right, right to left to towing hooks between towing and towed tanks. Towing is very risky, but a chain adds considerably more risk over a steel braided cable.
Chains for towing on a vehicle over 10-12 tons is extremely dangerous. Chains will break and kink unless you have chains so thick, that it would make them too heavy and ungainly to handle or to carry on an already overloaded tank. Tank retrievers always carried chains, and some smaller guage chains were used to secure heavy items such as tow bars or ditching logs. They were occasionally used to fashion a foothold on tanks that were difficult to mount. Chains seen on some German tanks were used for this purpose or for dragging smaller vehicles such as cars, trucks and guns that did not have a corresponding tow pintle and had to dragged along. A well made tow cable is much lighter, easier to handle and tougher than a chain. I have seen tow cables snap resulting in a death, and for that reason, they are always used in pairs crossed....left to right, right to left to towing hooks between towing and towed tanks. Towing is very risky, but a chain adds considerably more risk over a steel braided cable.
All,
I once got a 2 1/2 ton truck ( Deuce an Half) stuck in Louisiana clay nose first. Had a winch on the front bumper, let it out and put it around a pine tree. about 3 feet up in the hopes of lifting the nose up. Long story short. I ended up pulling that pine tree down. Yeah cable is tough. Just a foot note: When we finally did get the truck out, you could read the front differential part number in the clay. Yeah I had it that stuck.
Jim
04-15-2010, 03:40 PM
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RE: Correct Scale Of Tow Chains
ORIGINAL: 1sgt
All,
I once got a 2 1/2 ton truck ( Deuce an Half) stuck in Louisiana clay nose first. Had a winch on the front bumper, let it out and put it around a pine tree. about 3 feet up in the hopes of lifting the nose up. Long story short. I ended up pulling that pine tree down. Yeah cable is tough. Just a foot note: When we finally did get the truck out, you could read the front differential part number in the clay. Yeah I had it that stuck.
Jim
ORIGINAL: pattoncommander
Chains for towing on a vehicle over 10-12 tons is extremely dangerous. Chains will break and kink unless you have chains so thick, that it would make them too heavy and ungainly to handle or to carry on an already overloaded tank. Tank retrievers always carried chains, and some smaller guage chains were used to secure heavy items such as tow bars or ditching logs. They were occasionally used to fashion a foothold on tanks that were difficult to mount. Chains seen on some German tanks were used for this purpose or for dragging smaller vehicles such as cars, trucks and guns that did not have a corresponding tow pintle and had to dragged along. A well made tow cable is much lighter, easier to handle and tougher than a chain. I have seen tow cables snap resulting in a death, and for that reason, they are always used in pairs crossed....left to right, right to left to towing hooks between towing and towed tanks. Towing is very risky, but a chain adds considerably more risk over a steel braided cable.
Chains for towing on a vehicle over 10-12 tons is extremely dangerous. Chains will break and kink unless you have chains so thick, that it would make them too heavy and ungainly to handle or to carry on an already overloaded tank. Tank retrievers always carried chains, and some smaller guage chains were used to secure heavy items such as tow bars or ditching logs. They were occasionally used to fashion a foothold on tanks that were difficult to mount. Chains seen on some German tanks were used for this purpose or for dragging smaller vehicles such as cars, trucks and guns that did not have a corresponding tow pintle and had to dragged along. A well made tow cable is much lighter, easier to handle and tougher than a chain. I have seen tow cables snap resulting in a death, and for that reason, they are always used in pairs crossed....left to right, right to left to towing hooks between towing and towed tanks. Towing is very risky, but a chain adds considerably more risk over a steel braided cable.
All,
I once got a 2 1/2 ton truck ( Deuce an Half) stuck in Louisiana clay nose first. Had a winch on the front bumper, let it out and put it around a pine tree. about 3 feet up in the hopes of lifting the nose up. Long story short. I ended up pulling that pine tree down. Yeah cable is tough. Just a foot note: When we finally did get the truck out, you could read the front differential part number in the clay. Yeah I had it that stuck.
Jim
POST SCRIPT:
You know, now that I think of it. It was a heavy duty wrecker chain we used to pull my truck out. We connected the chain to another trucks tow pintal and backed it up to the tailgate of mine . Floored it and poped the clutch. Took three times to get it out and when it did brack free there was a loud sucking noise from the clay,now that's what you call stuck. But kind of funny concidering the topic that it was a chain in the end that got me out.
Jim
04-15-2010, 07:20 PM
#30
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RE: Correct Scale Of Tow Chains
1SG, glad you got out...yes, wreckers as well as VTRs carry chains for lighter vehicles....what was the weight of your duece & a half ...would venture to guess under 12 tons. Winches and heavy hemp rope is commonly used for pulling out stuck vehicles.
Biggtony; Tanks don't pull down trees, you nose up against them and stomp the accelerator to push it down....then back off so that you don't get both "feet" scratching air. Smaller trees 4-6 inches dia you can plow down as you roll. Tanks dragging stuff with chains very likely, but those chains did not come off the tank. Look in those pictures and you will most likely see some trucks that carried chains as issued to them. Smaller guage chains were common to snug stuff down to carry if needed, but a tank is not a cargo carrier. Such a load would pose very serious problems if the tank got into a fight. WW I tanks and early WW II "funnies" are a different matter.
The terminology tow chain implies that it was issued for such...but NOT a tank. Towing a 45+ ton tank with a chain, unless the chain came off a Cruiser or Battleship, would be extremely risky business and a setup for serious damage and injuries. For this reason, all tanks are issued one braided steel cable. Japanese lights and tankettes may well be acception.
Biggtony; Tanks don't pull down trees, you nose up against them and stomp the accelerator to push it down....then back off so that you don't get both "feet" scratching air. Smaller trees 4-6 inches dia you can plow down as you roll. Tanks dragging stuff with chains very likely, but those chains did not come off the tank. Look in those pictures and you will most likely see some trucks that carried chains as issued to them. Smaller guage chains were common to snug stuff down to carry if needed, but a tank is not a cargo carrier. Such a load would pose very serious problems if the tank got into a fight. WW I tanks and early WW II "funnies" are a different matter.
The terminology tow chain implies that it was issued for such...but NOT a tank. Towing a 45+ ton tank with a chain, unless the chain came off a Cruiser or Battleship, would be extremely risky business and a setup for serious damage and injuries. For this reason, all tanks are issued one braided steel cable. Japanese lights and tankettes may well be acception.
04-15-2010, 08:20 PM
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RE: Correct Scale Of Tow Chains
Okie dokie then, no chains it is. Kind of sucks cause it adds a more brutish look to the tank........well....maybe to the untrained eye, but apparently it'll make the tank historians puke at the sight of it! lol
Thanks alot for the info PattonC!
04-15-2010, 11:25 PM
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RE: Correct Scale Of Tow Chains
my 2 cents,
After reading this entire post, I think it is fair to say that the concensus is chains were too weak and dangerous to be used for towing tanks, and it it may be unlikely that they would use them for much else (on a tank).
But let's not forget one very important thing.......................this is still a hobby and we are all creating what appeals to us. Big Tony if you think chains look cool and add to the "brutish look" of your German armor, than I say add the chain and call it artistic license. I know I take plenty when I build my tanks. Yeah I want my tanks to look accurate but not at the sacrafice of adding what I like or think looks good, this is meant to be fun, build it and paint the way you like or think looks good.
But hey that's just MHO
Squid
After reading this entire post, I think it is fair to say that the concensus is chains were too weak and dangerous to be used for towing tanks, and it it may be unlikely that they would use them for much else (on a tank).
But let's not forget one very important thing.......................this is still a hobby and we are all creating what appeals to us. Big Tony if you think chains look cool and add to the "brutish look" of your German armor, than I say add the chain and call it artistic license. I know I take plenty when I build my tanks. Yeah I want my tanks to look accurate but not at the sacrafice of adding what I like or think looks good, this is meant to be fun, build it and paint the way you like or think looks good.
But hey that's just MHO
Squid
04-15-2010, 11:51 PM
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RE: Correct Scale Of Tow Chains
Thanks a lot for your input! By your rep, your 2 cents stretches as vast as a dollar in Thailand!
Your absolutely right and I believe I've forgotten this. I'm an artist by trade and especially with what I do, I have a license to kill in the realm of art. But making a cross utilization of the freedom in my profession with in this hobby...or at least the idea, has been quite difficult. Because much of this hobby (especially the WWII era tanks) have a burden of history and historians.
Something I'm not used to in my profession. I know how anatomy works and I know how to trick the viewers into believing that any of my crafted creatures would have this make belief anatomy. But because I'm fairly new into this hobby and quite impressionable, if someone tells me that it shouldn't be there.......I may question it, but I ultimately agree, yet want to disagree......I know, it's confusing! lol
I'm making the Initial Tiger #100 and because I am,....it should be easier for me to do what I want since there is so little historical information as well as photo's of this tank available in it's course of action. In fact...I'm not sure this tank ever had tow cables to begin with since there isn't any pictures of it with tow cable and it was one of the first three Tigers to be fielded....so maybe they did have chains. <<<<<I know, I'm still trying to rationalize it, lol!
Anyway, I may go ahead and try it with and with out the chains and leave the ultimate deciding factor of it based on the final look.
Thanks,
Tony
04-16-2010, 01:46 PM
#34
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RE: Correct Scale Of Tow Chains
Right....this is hobby after all, and one has artistic license to improvise...BUT, looking at all the posts we see regarding exact shade of a particular color (when in German armor, it totally irrelevent) proper alignment of a Tiger hatch or pistol port, positioning of smoke bomb launchers, correct camo schemes, correct turret numbers, etc etc, it seems to me that most of us are interested in replicating a model that very closely resembles or represents a tank that actually, served.
In this vain, my comments are made as a guide based upon 25 years of dealing with 1;1 scale tanks and having pulled and been pulled out of places we did not want to be. If you build a tiger and mount a 9mm parabellum as primary armament in a yellow/black stripe paint scheme and Sherman tracks, it's your tank. However if the historic accuracy bug bites you, it would probably be better to use equipment that was standard issue for vehicles of a particular weight class and use a photo of that particular tank as a guide. It would also make you look a lot more cool among historically minded modellers.
Tanks in testing stage (re tiger 100) may not carry all the standard gear, as they run in a tightly controlled area with mechanics and towing resources right there with them. They would not be immediately towed....first annalyse why and how, then tow back for mods and repair.
In this vain, my comments are made as a guide based upon 25 years of dealing with 1;1 scale tanks and having pulled and been pulled out of places we did not want to be. If you build a tiger and mount a 9mm parabellum as primary armament in a yellow/black stripe paint scheme and Sherman tracks, it's your tank. However if the historic accuracy bug bites you, it would probably be better to use equipment that was standard issue for vehicles of a particular weight class and use a photo of that particular tank as a guide. It would also make you look a lot more cool among historically minded modellers.
Tanks in testing stage (re tiger 100) may not carry all the standard gear, as they run in a tightly controlled area with mechanics and towing resources right there with them. They would not be immediately towed....first annalyse why and how, then tow back for mods and repair.
04-16-2010, 01:52 PM
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RE: Correct Scale Of Tow Chains
Good points too, PC.
The Tiger 100 unfortunately didn't making beyond......well, any mods that I'm aware of, since it was captured by the Russians shortly after it's service. There are some left over brackets visible, top side for rods and what not. But the pic is too grainy to tell if at one time it possessed tow cables. All I know is this tank is pissing me off! lol I wish I had chose one with more information attached to it, but it's too late now!
04-16-2010, 10:29 PM
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RE: Correct Scale Of Tow Chains
BiggTony,
I'm feelin' your pain. I've got a chain on the front of my PZIII that in reality would break the lights off the hull with its weight. The only photos I could locate of any tanks with hefty tow chains were French units from the late '30's. I guess at some point I'll get around to making some more tow cables and replace the chain. But I like the looks for now.
Streetsquid has good points. It's your tank so make it your way. Most people strive for some semblance of realism (or at least some level of suspended disbelief), but let's face it, there have been lots of ultra-realistic Tigers and Panthers on here with muzzle brakes so black it looked like they were dipped in the paint jar, and that's not true to life. Nor are many of the weld lines that scaled up, would be so wide and high that the crew would trip over them. Note the number of tanks with solid machine guns too. Plus my PZIII has a smoker switch just down from the side hull escape hatch! I think some chains are the least of my realism worries.
Mike.
I'm feelin' your pain. I've got a chain on the front of my PZIII that in reality would break the lights off the hull with its weight. The only photos I could locate of any tanks with hefty tow chains were French units from the late '30's. I guess at some point I'll get around to making some more tow cables and replace the chain. But I like the looks for now.
Streetsquid has good points. It's your tank so make it your way. Most people strive for some semblance of realism (or at least some level of suspended disbelief), but let's face it, there have been lots of ultra-realistic Tigers and Panthers on here with muzzle brakes so black it looked like they were dipped in the paint jar, and that's not true to life. Nor are many of the weld lines that scaled up, would be so wide and high that the crew would trip over them. Note the number of tanks with solid machine guns too. Plus my PZIII has a smoker switch just down from the side hull escape hatch! I think some chains are the least of my realism worries.
Mike.
04-17-2010, 01:01 AM
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RE: Correct Scale Of Tow Chains
Biggtony,
I'm not sure my "rep" stretches as far as a quarter et alone a dollar in Thailand, hell I didn't even know I had a rep ( I just hope it's a good rep ).
First and foremost I just want to add, that in no way was I trying to judge or attack those who choose to go for ultra realism and historical accuracy, quite the opposite honestly. I have a tremendous amount of respect for rivet counters and those who become mini historians after countless hours of research. I know many modelers who have extensive refference libraries. my good friend and DAK cofounder Ethan is like a walking -talking encyclopedia of Shermans. I just chuckle at him, he;s so locked into that one subject and me.....................well let's just say I'm a little more all over the board! (LOL)
And as stated before I like my tanks to "look" accurate, well at least for the most part, and I too think that pattoncommander has some very valid points. But based on your posts, I got the feeling that you really liked the idea of hanging a chain on your Tiger ( I get it I like the look as well - that's why I hung one on the front of my Panther G). All I was suggesting was that in the end this is still a hobby, and it's YOUR tank, so have some fun, get creative and build what appeals to your eye. We all like praise from fellow modelers and we respect input and opinions of our "peers" or those who share in this hobby, but at the end of the day you have to be happy with what you built and how it looks!
Simply put I like to adhere to 2 creeds in this hobby
1 I call the RC tankers creed - "Buy a tank, build a tank, run a tank, break a tank, fix a tank!"
2. Is my own personal motto for painting and finishing - It's my tank, and I did that because I could, and it made me happy
So whether it's accurate FS numbers, a proper camo scheme, specific markings, heavy weathering, or stowed equiptment, all of these variable make this hobby interesting and keeps each of our tanks looking somewhat unique. If you ever look at the box art of a Tamiya kit, the paint schemes depicted are accurate, and I know some who have enlarged and cut out the paper instructions then used them as masks to get the "proper" camo pattern and placement, and that's fine. I personally would NEVER paint my tank to look like the box are, let alone try to reproduce it accurately......................it's not wrong it's just not me! Hell I usually mix all of my colors cause I like to be different
Anyway that's just me! just never forget to have fun, it's why we (well at least I) do this!
Squid (Craig)
PS Just wait till you see some of my upcoming projects............................things that make you go HHmmmmm!
I'm not sure my "rep" stretches as far as a quarter et alone a dollar in Thailand, hell I didn't even know I had a rep ( I just hope it's a good rep ).
First and foremost I just want to add, that in no way was I trying to judge or attack those who choose to go for ultra realism and historical accuracy, quite the opposite honestly. I have a tremendous amount of respect for rivet counters and those who become mini historians after countless hours of research. I know many modelers who have extensive refference libraries. my good friend and DAK cofounder Ethan is like a walking -talking encyclopedia of Shermans. I just chuckle at him, he;s so locked into that one subject and me.....................well let's just say I'm a little more all over the board! (LOL)
And as stated before I like my tanks to "look" accurate, well at least for the most part, and I too think that pattoncommander has some very valid points. But based on your posts, I got the feeling that you really liked the idea of hanging a chain on your Tiger ( I get it I like the look as well - that's why I hung one on the front of my Panther G). All I was suggesting was that in the end this is still a hobby, and it's YOUR tank, so have some fun, get creative and build what appeals to your eye. We all like praise from fellow modelers and we respect input and opinions of our "peers" or those who share in this hobby, but at the end of the day you have to be happy with what you built and how it looks!
Simply put I like to adhere to 2 creeds in this hobby
1 I call the RC tankers creed - "Buy a tank, build a tank, run a tank, break a tank, fix a tank!"
2. Is my own personal motto for painting and finishing - It's my tank, and I did that because I could, and it made me happy
So whether it's accurate FS numbers, a proper camo scheme, specific markings, heavy weathering, or stowed equiptment, all of these variable make this hobby interesting and keeps each of our tanks looking somewhat unique. If you ever look at the box art of a Tamiya kit, the paint schemes depicted are accurate, and I know some who have enlarged and cut out the paper instructions then used them as masks to get the "proper" camo pattern and placement, and that's fine. I personally would NEVER paint my tank to look like the box are, let alone try to reproduce it accurately......................it's not wrong it's just not me! Hell I usually mix all of my colors cause I like to be different
Anyway that's just me! just never forget to have fun, it's why we (well at least I) do this!
Squid (Craig)
PS Just wait till you see some of my upcoming projects............................things that make you go HHmmmmm!
04-17-2010, 06:34 AM
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RE: Correct Scale Of Tow Chains
Spitvalve, that tank is killer! It just makes me want to stop my moding process and paint my Tiger in its current state! Great work again.
Idefinitelyagree with you both. I have seen quite a bit of tanks here that were supposed to be accurate to historical tanks, but ultimately never quite pulled off accuracy to the historiansacrossthe board....even with coaching, lol. I think I'd be better off calling any of my tanks "Kelly's Heroes Edition," tigers because they weren't at all accurate or Tigers tobegin with! lol
Streetsquid.....modesty,modesty! 
I've done my research and I've seen your tutorials here and read your name on more than one occasion in regards to the "go to guy" for painted tanks. So even if I were wrong and your rep isn't that well known in this forum, it's in high standards to me.http://web.mac.com/ethandunsford/DAK...ING_GUIDE.html
I've done my research and I've seen your tutorials here and read your name on more than one occasion in regards to the "go to guy" for painted tanks. So even if I were wrong and your rep isn't that well known in this forum, it's in high standards to me.http://web.mac.com/ethandunsford/DAK...ING_GUIDE.htmlI again agree with you anddefinitelyplan to do this with my KV1, to some degree. Thankfully there's little moding to be done to my KV1 out of the box other than the barrel and maybe adding some accessories and converting it to IR. So I can get to painting shortly after it's arrival! Whoooot!
04-17-2010, 10:29 PM
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RE: Correct Scale Of Tow Chains
Thanks Craig,
Your tutorials on this site and DAK site are fantastic. Best I've seen, and your use of easily obtained and inexpensive media makes developing skills and technique possible without blowing the bank.
Mike.
Your tutorials on this site and DAK site are fantastic. Best I've seen, and your use of easily obtained and inexpensive media makes developing skills and technique possible without blowing the bank.
Mike.
04-20-2010, 01:34 AM
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RE: Correct Scale Of Tow Chains
Wow - Thanks guys!
Nice to know that what I have to say or share has some merrit, and others find at least remotley interesting or useful. I've been fortunate to have met and worked with a lot of very knoledgeable and talented people in my carrer that I've learned a lot from. Now I really enjoy sharing what I've learned or figured out over the 30+ years I've been building miniatures here on this forum.
I haven't had any model building tools or supplies since before Christmas and I'm looking forward to getting everything out of storage when I get back back into a house hopefully by the beginning of May. Then you will see me become a more regular contributor to this forum once again.
Kindest regards,
Squid
Nice to know that what I have to say or share has some merrit, and others find at least remotley interesting or useful. I've been fortunate to have met and worked with a lot of very knoledgeable and talented people in my carrer that I've learned a lot from. Now I really enjoy sharing what I've learned or figured out over the 30+ years I've been building miniatures here on this forum.
I haven't had any model building tools or supplies since before Christmas and I'm looking forward to getting everything out of storage when I get back back into a house hopefully by the beginning of May. Then you will see me become a more regular contributor to this forum once again.
Kindest regards,
Squid
04-20-2010, 01:47 AM
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RE: Correct Scale Of Tow Chains
Really looking forward to that Streetsquid!
It's unfortunate a lot of the tutorials including your's aren't stickied. But.....I guess that's what the search bar is for! lol That was the first thing I did when I joined the tank forums and your tips and tutorials stood out and got me interested in some of the techniques that are applied to the hobby craft. I'm really familiar with paint techniques, but this weathering/modelling technique opened up a new world that I am able to use in my profession. Good stuff!
