RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Edited, one thing rivet posted that I can agree with is the politics comment. I too am tired of it after the last election and came here to escape it. Therefore I will leave him to his ignorance.</p>

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Tamiya tanks are over prices bottom line.

Fact is they are the best in the 1/16 scale.

I would love to build a leo but at $700 seams more realistic in my books.

I'm glad peeps like clark and other mfg'rs are stepping up to the plate and making their product better.

My next tamiya tank will be the sherman.

With the metal line of tanks coming out...I see ppl shifting and supporting the other mfg'rs.

Competition is great.

Like airsoft....10 years ago all you had Tokyo Marui(japanese)was the Tamiya of the Airsoft gun suppliers and ICS(chinese). Now there is a ton of of airsoft gun makers and mostly from china and taiwan. The quality of what you get for your money is out of this world. Tokyo Marui is no longer the leader.

I see the same thing happening here.

Like in most hobbies...you cant just support one company or you'll miss out what others have to offer.

I'm my case i want to support as many companies and vendors here to keep the hobby going.

You can buy a game console that's light years ahead of this outdated tech for $300.

$1000 for a leo or an IS-2 is more of a luxury. If you have the money to burn and dont care do it.

But like someone said on here. You can buy 3 nice tanks for that price.

There is no right or wrong here...no one is making anyone buy anything.

Peeps should just do what ever fits their budget and make them happy.

I will continue to support tamiya as well as the others.

Things will balance out or tamiya will stop making tanks if other mfg'r make equal quality tanks at a more realistic and affordable price.

In the few years that I been in this hobby I see more and more peeps supporting other brands.

let's all get along and help the hobby grow so we can all win at the end.

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255);">you right tom, take for instance the asiatam metal elefant 600 euro, no electronics , much work on it to get it right fitting the pieces, low quality screws i all renew with proper ones ... take now the tamiya panther also 600 euro, you easily build it up at one week and it works with proper electronics
my asiatam will take a year toget it in the same condition without sound etc, retraction ... have to buy it seperate at the end with metal tracks the elefant will get close by 900 euro when worthy stands next to my tamiya panther
same isseu with the matorro metal tiger 500 euro without proper electronics
</span>

<span style="font-size: larger;"><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">So the question is the tamiya worth its high price, wich isn't that high compared to other ... yes tamiya is ... its quality, not topquality because none off us would</span></span><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"><span style="font-size: larger;">afford then one then ... don't you think ... its worth every penny
</span>
there are better sound cards for now, take elmod and beiersoundcard both as expensive as the tamelectronics but programmeble , a huge adventage i admit ... benedini is the high end in sound etc ...

its not wich is the best just is it worth the price : one answer <span style="font-size: larger;">YES</span><br type="_moz" /></span><br type="_moz" />

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

I worked for HPI and Venom/Atomik. I designed many car bodies for HPI and made them by hand, 1/10 and 1/16 scales. At Venom/ Atomik I was the Director of R&D and designed many products including the VMX 450, GPV-1, Gambler, Creeper all ground up projects and then a lot of motors, bodies, charger cases and related RC items. I traveled to China many many times and worked on the production lines to approve and test product on site. I understand first hand what the mold costs are and how to take advantage of techniques to achieve results while keeping costs as low as possible.
Ive worked in special effects as a model maker for several years in film, TV, music video, and print.
So in some way or another youve all seen my work. For years I supported the RC platforms on RCGroups and other forums using my name. I would call myself a Product Designer and a Model Maker.

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Are Tamiya's relevant at their cost? Not really, the current price trend for them pushes them into specialist level. The general punter walking down a street will see a JS-2 demo and think:

"wow that is cool!"

They will then go into the shop, see the price and think:

"maybe not"

and walk away.

As a retailer Tamiya's 1/16 range is sort of approach with caution. They just don't sell well, cost too much to buy in and return very little in terms of profit.

There are a lot of numbers being bandied about this thread, most of them fabrications. It is not as easy looking at a tank and saying it costs $100 to produce. That probably doesn't take into account the paper research, travelling to see the tank, paying museums for trade access, CAD design, proto-typing and finally the moulds themselves. Then you have designing, printing of boxes manuals, translations to various languages, materials, assembly and packing and marketing and then the tank arrives at the distrubutor.

How many tanks does Tamiya need to ship and sell before the inital costs are actually covered? Hooben struggled with that. Add to the fact it is not exactly a huge market and you may run into problems. So what do you do, you know you are not going to sell many of them so you price it high sell low volume and recoup your costs as quickly as possible. I don't believe Tamiya could sell them "cheap" enough to go the Heng Long route of keeping the price down.

I know from experience how many hours paper research alone takes up on these things, I have spent hunderds of hours doing it. I've also been quoted thousands for a simple mould for one part. I don't neccesary agree with the pricing or believe it is sustainable but I understand it.

Couple of points Heng Long tank $30-40 trade, not likely, I wouldn't trust alibaba prices if I were you. New Heng Long tank, 200 euros, again not likely. Shop elsewhere. At those price Axel is most likely importing rather than buying from a distributor this helps keep the price down. Second point the Sherman and Tiger have both been out for a long, long time. I do belive the Sherman has been retail for longer than I have been breathing. That is a long time in sales to recoup your initial costs and yet the price has risen rather than going down.

Tamiya tanks are good quality, but they are not bullet proof. I've seen first hand and read about plenty of failures but Tamiya will replace them if you have purchased them from a country based reseller. Current Tamiya practice is to refer you to the country distributor and the first thing they will ask you is, where did you buy it from. In the UK at least your warrenty will not be accepted if you purchased it cheaper online from another country. On warrenty claims Tamiya refers us to the UK distributor. Probably different in the US since there is a Tamiya (USA) presence.

Depreciation for Heng Long and Tamiya are roughly the same for new models boxed. Heng Long tanks can sell quite well when modified, Tamiyas tend not too. Either way they both tend to lose around 50% of their cost. Newer tanks like the Leo seem to have issues selling and depreciation on them is higher.

I believe the original questions if if the price is relevant. If you compare, for example a TaiGen or Torro metal Tiger to a Tamiya Tiger then the Tamiya really only wins because of the electronics package. But then again the TaiGen will run without spending any more money and still costs significantly less. The Tamiya won't and you will have to pay for basics that should be included in any radio controlled model at that price, namely a handset, receiver and battery. The TaiGen can fit upgraded electronics and pretty much be on par.

People like to talk about quality, Tamiya are good no doubt. But how good does it really need to be? I adopted a shipping damaged TaiGen Tiger I late (the initial release not the new one). I've been running it for over a year now with no issues. The original Heng Long Tiger I I purchased for myself from Forgebear is still running and that was purchased in 2010. The only thing that is wrong with it is I broke the front machine gun off. This tank was not used gently see pic below:
<div style="text-align: center;">http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps1ea59a80.jpg</div>


<br type="_moz" />

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

STO and Chris have a very good grip of how that specific business model works. It's easy to see the experience they have.<div>
</div><div>Listen to them everyone, they know their stuff!</div>

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

The Tamiya 1/16 tank is worth every cent. The resale value they hold proves it....every damned day!!!!!

HL tanks are toys.... getting better... and they sure did light a fire under Tamiya's butt.

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Huh I see tamiya tanks worth less once assemble than a new assemble one. That's not holding value it's losing it, badly!

They are also toys... Just like the HL.

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Value is in the eye of the spender. IF you spend $1000 on a Tamiya and your perception is value, then no one is going to change your mind, nor should they.

Same for Heng Long. There is no winner in this endless debate. We have proven that:D

Buy what you like, have fun, and respect what people do with THEIR money.

If Tamiya wants more of mine then they need to produce more kits like the 1A4. The biggest issue I have is paying a premium, and then upgrading TU's, and the electronics with these FO kits.

I would plunk down $500 on a IS2 without electonics in a heartbeat.

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Now your talking, Same here.

What I can't stand is when a new person comes on here and asks for advice on a HL purchase, that they have their mind set on and along comes the buy a Tamiya response..........some people just can't afford it. The thing is I can afford it and I still question whether or not to buy the dam thing lol. I think my problem is I over think things, but one thing I have never been accused of being an impulse buyer.

Cheers,
Wade

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Can you think of anything that holds its value once opened or built?
\

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

In defense of Canada, not that the nation needs it; the country is doing way more than OK, 'cause whatever the USA Federal leadership says and does Canada does the opposite, per Forbes, 2012.

John

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Very interesting Chris, your experience gives you a singular insight into the model business that most others do not have.

I think it's wonderful that there are those among us who have in depth knowledge of manufacturing; hearing what they
have to say is useful counterpoint.

As for me as long as I'm able to I'll buy what I like and if I like Tamiya's IS-2 ( and I believe I will) I'll buy one. At the end of the day
I don't listen to anyone's opinions regarding worth anyway, unless something is just completely useless or a scam. I read the opinions mostly for the
amusement element. Tamiya vs Heng Long 'discussions' are nearly always entertaining, why people waste the time is curious to me.. Who really cares
as long as you're happy with what you've got?

Anyway enjoy them all where ever you are.

Jerry

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

IM not sure....but this isn't one of those discussions.'

The originally posited point was as to Tamiyas continued relevance at the price point its at. 10 years ago that relevance was in terms of Tamiya and Heng LOng.

Today its in terms of Taigen, Chunwai, Metallbox, Hooben, Heng Long, the custom products of a dozen independent constructors, Mato, and the metal Tiger kit I still cant remember.

So thats a different discussion entirely. Perhaps its best to stick to the frame established by the opening post. Because the heng Long is done to death.


Staying with that and trying to get back on track, Tamiya are also well know for bad quality releases occasionally - the Panther about 6 years ago was a bit of a dud and Ican remember posts from that period indicating that their custom service was pretty woeful.

There was even a thread years ago (dont know where it is now)about the different things that had to be fixed or attended to on various Tamiya tank models. And it wasnt exactly short......

Im convinced that there arent more "Tamiya problem"threads simply because the people who buy Tamiya are in a position to fix problems without going to th eboards (or are just too embarrassed to admit they bought a less than perfect tank for nearly 1000 dollars http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...eeth_smile.gif).

For tanks costing what they do, even the existence of half a dozen threads with problem tanks goes somewhat towards their relevance in the greater scheme of things.

p

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Have you owned a Tamiya and stayed quiet about its problems, otherwise how qualified would your statement be? If I bought a thousand dollar tank and it didn't work properly, trust me - I would be on the phone, internet making sure that everyone knew the product wasn't worth the money I paid for it.

Would you compare a Rolex unfavourably against a Casio and claim that the Rolex is an overpriced timepiece just because a Casio can tell the time equally well?

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

A rolex and a casio will both tell the time to the same degree of accuracy and probbaly both last as long. Rolex has bragging rights the same way as patek phillipe. If you want to tell the time, any watch will do. My old timex from 1980 works as well today as it did when i got it- doesnt look very flash but it keeps time accurately .

quality is not some intrinsic quantity - it is the fitness of purpose and is only defined by theh customer. No one else. Every student of statistics or quality assurance learns that. If a produces says that something is high quality then they are just fooling the customer.

if someone wants an rtr tnk tht wont break their bank and for which they do not need to worry about having to buy more stuff - thetigen is better quality that tamiya as it is "more fit for purpose" as defined by the customer.

as to tamiya and its flaws - there is a thread here about commonly encounterd weaknesses in tamiya tanks. Noone on that thread disagreed they were actual flaws. Google "tamiya tank problems" and there are plenty of hits.

p<br type="_moz" />

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Moot point. I googled Rolex problems and got 9.76 million hits. I googled Patek Phillipe problems and got 38.6 million hits. And Casio got 9.35 million hits. It says quite little about the value and quality of each - and the fitness of purpose

For the record, Tamiya scored 6.09 million hits. So really, its not a good indicator at all of anything. This very forum is one of the best repositories of RC tank information, and unless you could really substantiate a large legion of Tamiya tank owners quietly suffering and fixing their thousand dollar tanks out of shame of having paid so much for a piece of cr@p, that's a statement with no basis.

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Your point was as to rolex being overpriced.<div>
</div><div>If you want to tell the time accurately, then rolex is overpriced relative to other products.</div><div>
</div><div>If you want to tell time accurately and have something that you think shows you have money ....... Then it isnt.</div><div>
</div><div>I bought an ipad as the producer said it was high quality and worth paying for. Websites said it was good quality. For me....it wasnt. It doesnt do anything i need and a cheaper product woul have been better. Bigger fool me to let the producer and guys on the web assure me that they knew my needs more than me. I wont abdicate responsibility for what i need or want so quickly again.</div><div>
</div><div>Same with tamiya. It aint a quality product or value for money if it doesnt fulfill my needs. If my needs are other than those satisfied by what they offer....then its overpriced and not quality.</div><div>
</div><div>I never mentioned legions of people with problems.</div><div>
</div><div>Tamiyas are built by builders.....if they encounter problems they are more likely to attend to them as part of the build process than people who buy ready to run and then encounter a problem.</div><div>
</div><div>
</div><div>Thereby skewing the only evidence we have ready access to as to whether or not ot her producers produce a less reliable product.</div><div>
</div><div>P</div>

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Tamiya is still the benchmark and therefore still relevant. Every product that is produced is compared to a Tamiya. As good, better than, not up to Tamiya standards, are typical responses we hear all the time, and to me that proves their relevance in this hobby.

I will say people are much more forgiving of Tamiya mistakes. The Israli Sherman, Panther gun bbl wobble, Pershing tracks on the A14, are just accepted, where as Heng Long or others tend to be described as toys or junk when errors are found.

For the hobby Tamiya is important because they are the big guns. If they ever choose to abandon this scale then this hobby is really on the fringe. This makes them relevant as well.

We have to respect how people enjoy this hobby, and how they spend their money. I have Tamiya tanks and once I bought one I realized the quality they represent. However I buy way more HL type tanks, because for me the enjoyment of the hobby is building something unique and different. I like tinkering wiith recoils, elevations, sound files. This is where the enjoyment is for me. Building a Tamiya tank is not much of a challenge. Good instructions, good parts, it goes together without issue. For this reason they do make a good first time tank. You get an understanding of what goes in these, that you don't get when you buy a RTR tank. Probably 80% of the complaints about Heng Long are from people who have never really been involved in RC electronics before. They see this big neat tank for $150 and buy it. If it gives them any trouble at all they have no idea where to start looking for the problem. Tamiya kit builders generally have an idea what and where the problem is, and they fix it. No need to ask for help or complain about a problem

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

And teh above is probably the most balanced answer on this thread ......

p

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

that's depends on your selling stategy, a well build tamiya rc tank holds it price , if i sell one of my tanks and i payed 600 euro for it it wont leave my home for 400 or 500 ...

but you see many bad builded tamiya stuff, cracked here and there, worn on bad use and those guy's want the full price back and are telling around tamiya isn't holding its price ... forget it if you are patient the proper buyer will come up with the needed funds if it is ok and well builded

on the other hand second hand buyers don't take into account the upgrade stuff used on your build, that is in most cases at the owners will ... he like the upgrades but not realy needed (in technical aspects) so the second hand buyer will not pay for that ... you can't blame anyone ... its the same story ... if you look deeper into the build of a second hand tank ... most of the fotoetch is damaged or get loose in the years of battling with your tank , it worth nothing if it is broken, cracket etc ... even when you used a 200 euro etch kit when bought it the value drops at the moment you rides with it , its the same with real cars, all the option you take above the car itself aren't considered when you sell it after a few years ...

the warrenty of tamiya is ok, i bought mine in germany and get my stuff from there ( i live into belgium),just holding your receipt and copy it !!! ... the only thing you have to do is paying the postage cost to send it too axels ... the rules are clear if you open up the electronics you loose the warrenty ... some guy's can't read , and complaning when modified electronics are off warrenty, the people of tamiya aren't stupid, they know when you moded on it ... many people i know get the warrenty on the conditions tamiya promises , its no cheap joke ... read the conditions and complain then !!!

used well and build properly a tamiya tank last for years, i have a few of 15 years old no isseu's at all, when you use your tank in sand or mud ... you have to clean and not let it dry and then scrape the durt off , its with everything you use, it needs proper maintenance

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

The value is built into the tank by the builder. With a quality kit (like Tamiya), a solid warranty, and a good builder (with an established reputation) the built new tanks do hold their value. I buy and sell many each year. I sell about half at Danville and NEAD events and the rest via Ebay. My feedback speaks for itself. Link: http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...edbackAsSeller
Many of the kits I sell I am also asked to build. I agree with Karel....the quality must be built in. Tamiya gives you a very sound foundation. With HL you are on your own.

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

i totaly agree with that commander and Yhr

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

he wade if you are questioning to buy it or not why don't try a mate's tamiya and convincing yourself it is appropirate to buy by you, am sure many friend will show you their stuff to help you out

if you decide then HL is a better source for your budged that's ok, we must respect eachother thoughts too!

we have in our language a perfect accent for that :look before you leap ... i don't know if the translation is correct , let's hope
building things up in your way is so satesfying ... enjoy your choice