RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

So Robert, Where is this 1-1 scale model being built? It is interesting to say the least!!!

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Regardless what is said regarding prices we in the US really do have it pretty sweet.

Our country might be is slipping towards a decidedly socialist nanny state, our domestic policies driving us towards insolvency
and our foreign policies long outdated but dang we sure can get our toys cheaper than just about anyone!

Not that there's anyways near 1,000 buckaroos or Euroids worth of plastic in a Tamiya IS-2 I'm sure the price of a drop of black gold
has something to do with that stiff price; not just for the production raw materials but the all up cost to get to a shelf near you.

I look around at the prices at HobbyDirekt, Axel's, rctank.de, and a raft of others periodically and yep for the most part we still can get'em
cheaper thanks to Karen and the Museum... used to be a time when Dave4What would give'em a run for the money though.....

Jerry

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Absolutly! Some places have much better prices.

The point was that for SOME people it's not an option to get them (because it changes the price a lot). That's what we tried to explain to a couple individuals that didn't understand that some people live in different countries and some products cost more or less depending where you live.

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

QUOTE FOR TRUTH!!! Seems to me you got a chip on your shoulder over customs charges to Norway. Well please dont lump the rest of europe in with your self. Ive never paid more than £300 for a tamiya (Have 2x king tiger, panther, Jagdpanther and Leo) got em second hand but hell you couldnt tell!
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RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Including taxes? New? If yes then it'sa crazy price. If you meant 300 pounds for used then heh... lot's of used one's on the market for 50% of what they cost new lol

Comes out to under $500 for any tamiya?

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

No one is willing to say, but my bet is Germany.

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

This is true to be fair.....but the premise of the thread was are Tamiya still relevant at their price point. NOt are they still relevant in the USA at that price point.

And if someone stateside is asking that question......then its logical to say that their relevance in parts of the world where they aint that cheap is even more in question.

Tamiya never seems to have achieved the dominance in Europe that they have in the US. For good or bad.

On the good side however:

1. Europe has a thriving market in accessories and addons, a wide range of suppliers and bits and pieces that I dont see for sale in USretailers.

2.. Europe has a thriving supply base of specialist retailers/customisers the number and breadth of which I do not see matched in the US.

3. Europe has a a number of independant manufacturers of high quality tanks, in metal and other materials, at prices that, for the piece of art you get, are not that insane. IN the US Ithink the only real one is Field of Armor?

4. Europe has a thriving "scene" (hate that word in that conext)in rc tanks....the Germans have some seriously impressive get to gethers. And it isn just related to IRbattling.

5. Europe has a bigger following of different scales than the US.

Now I dont know if all the above are due to Tamiya being less dominant over here (and Istill maintain that their lack of dominance hereis a defensible debating position).

But even if all the above are only half true....Tamiya in the above environment will always be less relevant than Tamiya in a market where only Heng Long/torro are the real alternative.


Iappreciate that Tamiya are popular in the states and have what could be perceived as a dominant position in the market. But I also can appreciate that in the more diverse European market they do not seem to be so dominant andthat their price point is not helping them.

If you go to ebay.co.uk.....the "European"ebay (And very good it is too) and search for "Tamiya"and "tank" and then filter by 1/16. Sort by price to just tanks and Igot one hit. Abulit KT.

If you go to ebay.com ... the "American" ebay (And very good it is too) and search the same terms.... Ihad to give up counting.

There seems to be a bigger market for Tamiya tanks in the US. And no Im not saying that the above is definitive evidence....Im saying its just one more hint that Tamiya aint that big in Europe.

And in that context, arguing from a European perspective........I dont think Tamiya are as "relevant"at th eprice they charge.

p

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Not really,......I checked and Iknow that the costs to here are pretty much the same as teh costs from outside EU to any country in the EU. Plus...I dont have to pay the 19% VAT at the retailer. But even with that in account...Tamiya are still expensive.


Hurrah for you. But if you got them second hand and couldnt tell......then Im a little worried about your judgement as the fact that theywere assembled should have alerted you to the fact that they were second hand.

Tamiya are high quality kits...... it is presumed one pays the premium to have the fun of building a high quality kit.

I dont want a kit built by someone else thanks.

People complain about Heng Longs quality control........ what sort of Quality control do you think went into the assembled tamiya you buy from ebay? Very little Ireckon.

p

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Now THAT I definitely agree with. 1:10 scale, the scale I follow extensively has been is and will be far more popular in Europe as a whole than it will ever be in the US;
for reasons I've never been really able to comprehend. Not price certainly based on what I've seen people here pay ( with glee) for some larger scale thoroughly dreadful junk.

And it isn't just due to lack of accessories; only with the advent of Dragon's dolls ( id est 'action figures' = U S Customs classification = dolls ) has that driven interest in a scale.
1:7, 1:8 scales were the predominant 'giant' scales in Europe; perhaps our European colleagues could correct my perception but 20 years ago 1:6 scale was virtually unknown;
certainly not as common as the smaller scales. And there was more interest in model engineering aspects back then.
Get and read an early copy of Gerhard O.W. Fischer's books on our hobby and see for yourself.....

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

If your importing into the uk you only pay the vat on models, all these extra costs youve mentioned are notapplicable. You seen to have chosen to miss understand my point, which was if you want a Tamiya you can get one second hand for a very reasonable price. When I say you'd ne'er be able to tell the model is second hand after I've finished with it. I do understand what you mean about the pleasure of building the kit. Personally I've always done a nut and bolt strip down of my tamiyas and then rebuilt them to my standards. Providing the pleasure of building a kit at less than half the cost.
My point is if you want a cheap Tamiya there are many possibilities which you seem to be discounting.

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Hi Tom....

Im not sure what extra costs you are mentioning. If Ipurchase from inside EUto an a non-EU country then I do not have to pay VATat the source. Ipay it on importing to the nonEU country. Plus Ipay a handling fee to the customs agent .

Same as for a UKperson purchasing from the states. Or some non-EU, non-commonwealth country Ipresume.I also tend to pay fairly high carraige costs (as does everyone else). Those carraige costs also enter into customs fees (ie. its the total proce of the package incl. p&amp;p).

I dont know what the other charges you refer to are. I do a lot of international shopping and those are the costs....as they are for a US person buying from Europe.


Im sure there are cheap Tamiyas. The new ones tend to be shermans and tigers. I dont want to buy a tamiya tank if I dont want that tank just to say Ibought a tamiya.....I dont want a sherman or a tiger. And they are the ones that are routinely "cheaper" (presumably because either they have lots to sell or they are popular or something).

Nor do I want a second hand one that is already built.......mostly because I dont know who built it and secondly because if Ibuy a kit, I want to build it.

In addition...many of the problems associated with ready built tanks are problems that arise due to shipping an entire tank. A problem that becomes relevant in buying a ready built Tamiya that will be shipped internationally.

I appreciate that you can strip your tank and start buying bits or whatever....but some parts are glued together surely and I dont see how you can strip those.

Ihave not chosen to misunderstand anything.......aside from shermans and tigers there are essentially no "cheap"tamiya tanks on sale new. Secondhand ones come with their own problems.

So Ihavent discounted the "many"(in fact it seem to be two) possibilities at all. Ive considered both of them.

In general Im always stumped by the price of tamiya rc tanks. Its not like tamiya are known for screwing people with their 1/35 scale tanks for example. They are distinctly middle of the road in that dept. when compared with the best Dragon offers for example. So why do it with the 1/16's?

p

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Well, the OP is from the good ole US of A, and while you are entitled to your opinions which are no doubt formed by your difficulty in obtaining affordable Tamiya tanks, likewise is anyone else on the forum. For all intents and purposes, the stateside answers are much more pertinent answers to his question than coming from someone over the pond!

If Tamiyas in Europe aren't relevant to their cost, explain why Tamiyas are downright affordable compared to some of the other specialist European model makers - compare the Tamiya Panther to the WeCoHe Panther. Throw in other makers like Sonderfahrzeug-modellbau and CG Model which make 1/16th scale tanks, and no doubt the big spenders wouldn't mind spending over a hundred Euro on some flimsy PE parts when their tanks cost 1200 Euro and up. I'll compare a Tamiya Leopard 2A6 costing 1000 Euro on eBay.de while the equivalent on Sonderfahrzeug-modellbau costs 1300 Euro without the electronics package (I may be wrong because I can't read German).

I couldn't buy as much accessories off Axels' or AFV-models because they'd tack on an excessive investment onto my tanks which I could better put towards my next Tamiya. I love the attention to detail - such as the tiny track link holder pins and chains, or the Panther's gun barrel holder linked-chain retention system, but I just can't justify the cost.

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

yes the wecohe panther sells <u>1800 euro</u> for the kit with all parts, but you have to buy the tamiya electronics still ... those price i find to high although many metal and fotoetch parts are in

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Hmmmm...let me see...

Well Ihave to admit I wasnt aware that rcuniverse was actually rcusa! I'll check in future as to where the OPis from.

1. Tamiya are in effect plastic kits.....the work of the specialist builders are usually larger than 1/16, made of metal, often come with petrol engines, are works of art in their own right, are virtually unique, and are usually the type of thing you pass on to your grandkids. Hermanns modellbau was, as of last year, selling 1/10 scale all metal panzers at around 2500 euro. Its not exactly extravagant. Even the asians.......the metalbox Pziii is nearly a meter long and looks like that (see below). Its 5000 dollars. Is a plastic kit really worth 1000 when you can have that (see below)for 5000?

Even this 60 kg monster http://www.armortek.co.uk/html/vehicles/Stug/Stug.htmlis only about what....3500 dollars? Its a meter long for Gods sake! How can a 1716 scale plastic tank be good value at a 1000 dollars when you can buy something you coould drive your kid around in and made of metal for about 3.5 times the price???????

A complete Sohnderfahrz Leopard in 1/16 (again ...metal) ...see below..........is 1700 euros. Its a mechanical monster, is well designed and well made and is likely to last a generation ...... how is a plastic tank worth more than half that price? Its 1000 euro for a toy or 1700 euro for a bit of mechanical wizardry and fine engineering that happens to be in the form of a tank.

2. If you buy a tank from a specialist you know you have something that not many others have ....a Tamiya is something an awful lot of people have. Tamiyas are downright affordable as you say for the same reason as a Honda is downright affordable compared to a BMW. And the specialist makers arent always that extreme with their prices either.

Im afraid Icannot support your contention......if you want the best it will be a small independent manufacturer. The prices, relative to tamiyas offerings, are not that steep at all.

Tamiya costs 5 to 6 times more than heng Long. You can upgrade a heng long to something that functions similar to tamiya.

Independent manufacturers tansk cost 3-4 times what Tamiya does. But you can never get a Tamiya up to par with what they produce.

p

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Wait a minute, a few posts ago you were beating on Tamiya for having "expensive" tanks and now you're justifying other tanks that cost significantly more?

I know you have a fetish for metal tanks from your post history and that's fine. Mentioning WeCoHe and Sonderfahrzeug-modellbau was to properly calibrate your comparison because you seemed to be positioning Tamiya to be some kind of high-end and irrelevant tank when there were cheaper alternatives on the market from Heng Long, Torro, WaSan... I deliberately chose 1/16th scale Tamiya tanks that had direct comparisons. Let's compare apples to apples? I would really want to crush soda cans really bad in order to place an emphasis on all that metal, but whatever jerks your rope, it probably means more to you than to me...

If I wanted my tank to "be more like the real thing" and iron out terrain instead of getting bounced around (yes, it annoys me but it probably pisses you to no end) and if I could be bothered enough I'd head to my local garage and get a ton of wheelweights to fill every nook and cranny in my tank's hull to give it more mass and force the suspension to work.

You'd have to replace quite a lot of a Heng Long to make it comparable to a Tamiya. Fact. Heng Longs all use spring suspension while Tamiyas use torsion bars. You'd have to change the hull to make it happen for a Heng Long. And is a 100% metal tank functionally any better than a Tamiya?

Its probably only the wank factor of being able to say that "My tank is all metal, just like the real thing!"

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Ho ho...nice try! But my argument is that Tamiya is too expensive for what you get...both relative to the "lower end"of the market like Taigen or Heng Long and now, as shown above, in relation to the higher end.

Their price point is just wrong in relation to both ends of the scale. You can get a cheap tank and make it perform as well as Tamiya for half the price of Tamiya.

Or a giant metal well engineered monster of eye watering quality that you could lose a finger on for 3 times th eprice of teh tamiya.

Sonderfahrzeug-modellbau charge 1.7 times the price of a Tamiya and you get chain driven motors and gears, cnc metal cut parts, an all metal tank, detail in metal that is top notch and still get the joy of building it if you want.

YOu are off topic here. We are talking about what you get for the money. Not whether metal is better than plastic.

Not everyone would agree.

Fact...HL cost 100 dollars...asiatam hull with torsion spring and metal structure...140 dollars. Still less than half the price of a tamiya and still money available to get a clark board etc.

and it would still be cheaper than tamiya.


Depends on the user. Saying that ... words like "reinforcement", "hull stiffeners", "cracks","warped", "super glue", etc dont usually feature in discussions on metal tanks but pop up regularly even in talk about Tamiya.

And even tamiya owners are to be found buying...... metal accessoires, metal wheels, metal this and metal that, photoetch....etc etc etc etc.

If metal isnt better...or at least isnt perceived to be better by many users.........then why is it so popular as both an addon and as astructural material (asiatam step on down!)?


Im not biased towards metal in discussing whether Tamiya represents value for money..... the mark-1 tiger 1/8 scale with everything (rc gear...the lot) is about 3200 dollars. Its plastic Ithink. And it still offers more for the money than the Tamiya tanks.

Even in assigning a dollar value per pound of materials used inmaking it. Its only 3.5 times tha price of a tamiya for something that is at least 10 times the tank.

Bit of a wank factor in saying "My tank is Tamiya...theyre just the best you can get". Except they aint.

p

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

You seem to have gone from tamiyas costing $1000 to &euro;1000, quite a difference there already. No only that but it has been demonstrated you can get a new Tamiya (not just tiger/sherm) way under &euro;1000 in Europe.

You are right in saying you can get a HL for $100 and add a metal hull. Ok then, what about idlers/sprockets, proper elevation/recoil? I like the Clark board a lot but the Tamiya has better sound and better drive characteristics. So you should really be adding something like elmod into the price there. Then add in a proper strobe flash and speaker and decent set of decals and your talking about something much closer to the price of a Tamiya.

I've looked at those all metal 1/16 tables such as the Leo 2 a4 wonderful but does the &euro;1700 include electronics? The afv model buffalo is &euro;2300 with electronics. I would love to own one but that's almost 4 &euro;600 Tamiya kits, or 3 &euro;800 ones.

When people start adding all the hull reinforcement to tamiyas generally it's not because tamiyas are badly engineered but because in the sport of rc battling your pushing a tank way beyond its design limits. It's like using say a BMW as a track day car without modification. Touch on it
In the next paragraph but a lot of upgrades, metal tracks wheels etc won't make your tank perform better or run more reliably.

For tanks you will run to run them (ie not battle) metal makes sense as they move better and respond more realistically. For rc battling you really want a tank to be lighter so plastic tracks of decent quality will be better. It's horses for courses.
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RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

End of the day it boils down to <div>
<div>     personal preference- as it is personal preference that will dictate the assumed value of the product</div><div>
</div><div>nobody is right and nobody is wrong </div><div>                                       everything else in this whole arguement is a Moot point</div></div>

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Yes... it's definitely an argument that cannot be won.




(said without the risk of hurting any ones feelings)














~ Jeff

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Hi Tom

No. It hasnt. Whats been demonstrated is that Imay get a Tamiya Sherman or Tiger for somewhere under a 1000 dollars. Just those two. If Im lucky to find someone with them actually in stock. And assuming I want Ieither of them.

600 euro for a fuly tricked out HL/Taigen whatever you want to call it. Judginb by what Iread of the clark and its driving characteristics orany sound...they are very subjective. If you are willing to pay a steep premium for sound or characteristics you like, go ahead.

Its almost 10 Heng Longs!But it aint th epoint. Its how much tank you get for your money. IF Tamiya is (ofr the sake of argument)600 and Heng Long is 100...you are paying a 500 premium for improved quality Ipresume. But that hop up in quality for which you have paid 500 .......... the hop up in quality from Tamiya to a fairly unique, CNCenginnered piece of metal goodness must therefore be worth subtsantially more. Because the difference between cnc metal German engineering asian plastic is a damn sight greater than th edifference between a HL and Tamiya (a difference you paid 500 for).

You get more tank for your money with the independant manufacturers.

Seriously?Driving around on well manicured surface is beyond the design limits of an rc tank?What are its design limits?Driving around on puppies and rabbits?

That point doesnt wash at all. Aback yard looks rougher than the average IRbattle ground. And surely a plastic toy tank is designed to be driven around in such an environment.

Plus Iam constatly assured that Tamiya out of the box is much more robust than HL and deosnt break down so much at IRbattles. Whi9ch contradicts your point precisiely. You cannot have it everyway!!!!

To be fair...it is. But if you want to do tank battling but dont care if the tank moves like one....why not just strap IRsets to palstic cars and save all the hassle?

Whats th epoint in IRTank battling if the tank, according to you, is better off not behaving like a tank at all?Its absolutely illogical to me. But.....Iam willing to concede that Imay be just an odd person who cannot see the point in spending a fortune building and superdetailing a tank so it looks 100%accurate then make sure it is light as possibledrives like a sportscar.



But lets take another point. Tamiya have released their JS-2. very nice. It costs 1000 (be they toe nail clippings or dollars).

Pound for pound, it probably has the same amount of plastic in it as a Tiger or something. Maybe 100g more so.

You say Tamiya tanks routinely cost around 600 or something.

So now somepeople are going to pay almost double for a tank that is, materially, probably similar (in terms ofmaterials used)to a tiger or kv-2 or similar. Hell...even the sound is the same as a KV apparently.

Now ask youself.....when HLreleased their last new model....did it cost 40% more than its other tanks?And if not.....given that the manufacturing processes between HLand Tamiya are similar......why does the Tamiya?

There are words that describe what Tamiya is doing to its customers...but youngsters frequent these forums and jail-slang isnt really appropriate.-

p

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Ican absolutely agree with that.

But...and if it can be done in a polite manner with well reasoned debate and without resporting to name calling or similar.....

Its an interesting exercise to find out where one of the stalwarts of the hobby standsas the field around it is undergoing a bit of an expansion and its presumed position isn't as strong as it once was.

The cheaper end of the market approaches a similar level of functionality (and eventually quality) for a much lower price, aftermarket addons muddy the waters and extremely well engineered models are available for reasonable money.

At least weve managed to progress beyond the Tamiya vs. heng Long catfights that such threads sused to become!!

p

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"><br style="font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px;" /><span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(251, 252, 255);">Fact...HL cost 100 dollars ... asiatam hull with torsion spring and metal structure...140 dollars. Still less than half the price of a tamiya and still money available to get a clark board etc.


http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f.../msn/72_72.gif
<u>in fact a heng long here cost 140 euro's or 200 dollars thats alraedy 380 dollar for a tank with empty shell whats expensive then ??? ... the tamsherman can be bought at 600 dollar only 120 dollar more that's relevant in my eyes too
</u>
</span></span><span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(251, 252, 255);">
!!! thats only the half work, its already 280 dollars for still a toytank, no functions and decent motorboxes at all at the end it will come more expensiver then buying a tamiya, after ten year you HL - Taigen will be on the</span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12.727272033691406px; line-height: 17.99715805053711px;">ceiling</span><span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(251, 252, 255);">while my tamiya stills goes on and on with minor replacements

for the price you also are wrong , wecohe has a plastic uperbody with you have to file in angles ... if you suck into this its trownout money and you have to fix wat was wrong ... for 1800 euro is 2356 dollar i expect a well engeniered model like tamiya or aeromate witch fit correctly without any restrictions you have to do by yourself, it isn't easy to set the pantserplates into the right angles without expierence ... and end up into some coffin ...</span><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"><span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(251, 252, 255);"><br type="_moz" /></span></span><br style="font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px;" />

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Hi Karel

Go here': http://www.rctank.de/product_info.ph...oducts_id=1835

ready to run, more metal than you can shake a stick at, 2.4 GHz, gun recoil and IR:479 euros

Less than a Tamiya and ready to run.

Idont care about wecohe...Inever mentioned them once. YOu did and now you keep bringing them up like Isaid they were good or something. CG Models arent very nice either.

BUt lets faceit....the Germans arent exactly known for sloppy engineering and I dont see to many Germans in tears at their low quality tanks at any of their big rc expos.

p

RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

yes for 499&euro; you have one in germany shops!
the holland shops are a bit expensiver

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...ades_smile.gif
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RE: Are Tamiya tanks relevant at their cost?
 

Sorry karel...saw your edit a bit late:

metal tiger lower hull 69 euros: http://www.rctank.de/product_info.ph...roducts_id=555

HL tiger with IR, metal tracks, airbrushed: 209 euros. http://www.rctank.de/product_info.ph...oducts_id=1628

what more do you want?And Im not even trying to find the best prices......

p