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HAYA 1/16 RC Chieftain
Good Day!
A company called HAYA in the UK, has released a RC 1/16 Chieftain Tank.. Any comments positive or negative are welcome. The price is a bit expensive. Is it worth it? |
Originally Posted by Strathcona
(Post 12554251)
Good Day!
Is it worth it? Not saying I have a thing for Chieftains but I pre ordered a pro version as soon as I found out about it. |
They seem to have several cool things. I got one of the German WW2 figures and the detail is good, but not really great.
https://www.hayaltd.co.uk/ |
If they'll ship to the US the pro version should come in at just over $600, plus shipping. That's about comprable with a Toro King Tiger. I saw a couple of things that made me wonder though, like the fact that they say it's got metal tracks and Metal Gear boxes but they don't mention sprockets or idlers and they don't say if the gears are steel or zinc. And they say it's Tamiya compatible but it really isn't. It will be able to receive and give hits, but that's all, no speed reduction for battle damage, no separate tank classes, not truly Tamiya compatible. But for those that have been waiting a very, very long time for a Chieftain, this should be a very good tank.
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Yes, they are shipping to the US. I pre-ordered a pro version also and it was $627 US shipped. I like more modern armor and the less common stuff so it was a no brainer for me. Price will go up after the initial release. It may come down again if they build more of them, but that might be years or they may never do another production run. You never know with small producers. If you want it and like British armor I would say get it while they are available.
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I emailed them and asked about many of the above questions and more. To their credit they actually responded. Yes to metal idler and sprocket on "pro version" and Yes to steel gears for both. The down side is the suspension components (arms and road wheels) are only being offered in plastic (they even sent a photo of the parts). They indicated these parts are NOT the "off the shelf" HL Challenger 2 parts that were used in the prototype stages and thus not compatible. Meaning no easy metal upgrades and no indication if any will follow. Also no indication if spare plastic suspension parts will be available either. For $500-600 US thats just not acceptable as these plastic parts will be subjected to the typical plastic on plastic wear that is so commonly seen on the basic Heng Long tanks when driven in dirt or sandy terrain leading to a limited usable life if one enjoys driving and fighting their tank in dirt. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rcu...d0494d956.jpeg Chieftain suspension They are using the new 6.0/1 Heng Long electronics which are a huge improvement over the old 5.3 electronics and in some ways it is better then Tamiya in handling performance even with 3:1 gears (though not in quality) based on my side by side testing of a HL T72 vs Tamiya M4 and Abrams systems. The IR battling compatibility DOES have limits, but these can be worked around with setting guide lines to "even things out" before fighting begins. We have found setting the 6.0 HL system on low power/speed mode coupled with when hit the HL tank stops for ~3 seconds to do its "hit and flashing light dance" tends to even out the odds. They become "sitting ducks" while stopped and can be hit repeatedly, maneuvered on and do not have the 1 second invulnerability during firing that Tamiya does. A Tamiya tank set on light or med with average drivers running both tanks wins more often then not against the HL 6.0 on low power mode. On the HL high power mode YES, it then becomes an uneven fight and the HL tends to win more. Point is it can be made to work in a reasonably fair manner and for the new or casual IR battler a 6.0/1 system is a cheap why to start getting hooked. All the above said I can't see keeping the 6.0/1 it in what will be rare $600+ tank. Mine will be getting a Tamiya system or Clark 60/80 and will most likely have the suspension modified with brass sleeves on the road wheel axles to extend their useful life or bearings added to the road wheels if possible. |
They also have a Chieftain 360 Rotation unit - 18 wire - available, being shipped in the same container, Andrew is thinking about a video installation guide.
If you're interested in Chieftain research, check out the Armortek Chieftain page - .Chieftain MBT - Armortek - lots of interesting stuff. Coincidentally, the Armortek 1/6th Chieftains started shipping this week. Mal |
I have one the mail. A Centurion would be great!
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Originally Posted by Strathcona
(Post 12554743)
I have one the mail. A Centurion would be great!
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Hello Tom,
I seen it in other internet places, and it is fantastic, but out of my price range at the moment, plus I live across "The Pond". |
Would love to see an M60
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Originally Posted by armourguy
(Post 12557776)
Would love to see an M60
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rcu...cd8182abf.jpeg M60 just behind M51. LA Tank club. |
The DKLM kit is incredible, and is very well engineered. My only objections are the lack of properly scale track / running gear as the M1 track and M26 sprockets are too narrow for the M60. Also the recycled M26 road wheels are just not close enough IMO for the M60's wheels. Also one ding that I will give the kit was because of the use of the narrow tracks and running gear the fenders are also more narrow than they need to be for the M60. If someone were to crank out a set of correct scale M60 tracks / running gear and update the CAD files on the kit then IMO the DKLM kit becomes more interesting to me for the price.
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The price is the main problem, if you ask me. Just ask Rich how much he has into his, and he'll tell you that it's several thousand dollars. For an all plastic tank.
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I think 3D printing is great innovation, but it has its limitations in the consumer market. Over time 3D printed parts will get cheaper and be of better quality. The 3D printing on the M60 seems fragile. Rich already broke one of the front fenders. This Chieftan is molded in styrene (or ABS not sure) and IMO would be much stronger than a 3D printed tank. Can't wait to get it. I'm guessing my Chieftan will get here in late November.
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Yeah, on the m60 i broke a shock mount too. Both repaired and stronger than before but you cant beat it up like a tamiya, ie i wont be jumping anything with it like I did with my Tamiya ez8 as seen in a photo Fastanks posted on the photogallery. Its a great running tank and performs really well on our huge field over all terrain. I, not shy of driving it, just not going rock climbing or airborne lol. I do have alot of money in it the tamy abrams tracks hurt alot.... dklm did drop the price shortly after i bought mine. The cheiflen looks really cool and i considered it for a minute but lack of any spares hurts, and Im a buildler not a buyer really.... i bought a static merkava to challenge my skills next year. Plus i counted like 7 sherman on my shelf that are started or half built lol. Please post a bunch when you guys get your tanks. Its an exciting time to be in this hobbby with these small timers putting out great models. |
There will still be some building on my part on the Chieftain I believe. I doubt I'll keep the stock electronics in it.
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Originally Posted by tankme
(Post 12558193)
There will still be some building on my part on the Chieftain I believe. I doubt I'll keep the stock electronics in it.
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Originally Posted by Fsttanks
(Post 12558198)
You will be fairly pleasantly surprised just how good the Heng Long 6.0 system that is being used in the Chieftain is. I was and still am. My T72 has the new 6.0 and it is a better overall handling tank then my Tamiya Abrams or M4 MFUs. The 6.0 is proving very user add on friendly and can be tweaked here and there to achieve different functions that are built in but not all utilized. If your interested I will post up the review done by my fellow hobbyists. We have no financial, sales or other interests in this model other than from a hobby point of view, so if you want an unbiased review from a hobby perspective I will post it here once done. |
Tankman,
I already have a tank on order from Haya so I have no dog in this fight, but I think your club's review would be very beneficial to the rest of the community. I think some of us have (maybe wrongly) assumed it was some kind of HL electronics because the only indication of the electronics are from pictures and the pictures look similar to the HL control module. |
Give us a few days as we are in the process of compiling pictures to go with the written review. Soon as we have that all sorted we will be more than happy to post it up for you guys. In the interim you can check out some of the details from proof of concept to final production on the Haya ltd Chieftain on there youtube channel ( link below ) |
Originally Posted by tankman
(Post 12558691)
Just a quick heads up for you guys the Haya ltd Chieftain is not made or designed by HL nor does it use the HL 6.0 electronics, it uses a control system made to Haya ltd’s own specifications. These include ports for 2 standard servos, 4 interchangeable sound files, switchable lighting and some other features. One of these Chieftains has recently been made available to a club I belong to, the RCTR 1/16th scale tank club in the U.K. for review. If your interested I will post up the review done by my fellow hobbyists. We have no financial, sales or other interests in this model other than from a hobby point of view, so if you want an unbiased review from a hobby perspective I will post it here once done. There are few photos, videos or any real information for a reason. The more that is shown the more it becomes clear who is manufacturing the tank and they know quite well more then a few folks would balk at the nearly $500-$600 price tag if they admitted to who was building the tank for them. If there are some tanks out there then post up some photos of the inside workings and bottom of the hull. Heng Long would have molded their company logo into the plastic just like they do with all their plastic hulls even the ones made for Taigen/Torro have the HL logo. If its not Heng Long then there would be another companies logo. Simple request, but I doubt we will see it before the mass release. But feel free to prove me wrong in my statements and observations, I would gladly admit to being wrong in them. All said I am excited for this tank I have one on order, but I am not fooling myself as to who is building it. After all HAYA is the largest importer of Heng Long tanks in the UK, it is owned by people of Chinese heritage with a close working relationship with Heng Long. There is an old saying "If it quacks, walks, swims like a duck it is most likely a DUCK". Same goes for this new tank. |
Originally Posted by Fsttanks
(Post 12558764)
They can say it not Heng Long all day but the fact it is using a Heng Long MFU a TK 6.3 system which has the same features as the 6.0/1 plus a few more. It also uses the Heng Long IR receiver, motors, gearboxes, smoke system, 360 turret rotation wire collar, recoil system and new HL radio transmitter that is due to come with the 6.1 tanks. Oh and that manufacturing plant sure resembles one seen in a few Heng Long videos. People are not blind, especially when things I am pointing out can be clearly seen in the videos THEY posted on the product page for the tank.
There are few photos, videos or any real information for a reason. The more that is shown the more it becomes clear who is manufacturing the tank and they know quite well more then a few folks would balk at the nearly $500-$600 price tag if they admitted to who was building the tank for them. If there are some tanks out there then post up some photos of the inside workings and bottom of the hull. Heng Long would have molded their company logo into the plastic just like they do with all their plastic hulls even the ones made for Taigen/Torro have the HL logo. If its not Heng Long then there would be another companies logo. Simple request, but I doubt we will see it before the mass release. But feel free to prove me wrong in my statements and observations, I would gladly admit to being wrong in them. All said I am excited for this tank I have one on order, but I am not fooling myself as to who is building it. After all HAYA is the largest importer of Heng Long tanks in the UK, it is owned by people of Chinese heritage with a close working relationship with Heng Long. There is an old saying "If it quacks, walks, swims like a duck it is most likely a DUCK". Same goes for this new tank. |
It's a low volume run of tanks so to me higher prices are to be expected. Making repeatable molds and R&D is expensive even today in the world of 3D printing. Personally I don't care who manufactured it either as long as I'm happy with it. :)
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If you gentlemen can contain yourselves till the review is done and pictures are posted, then might be the right time to get into an informed discussion rather than shooting from the lip as they say ( should have said finger as we are on a forum lol ). |
Got these direct off Andrew at Haya ltd today. Might shed a bit more light on the Chieftan MFU and TX and the various functions that will be standard on the tank.https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rcu...5189cc05a.jpeg MFU schematic https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rcu...fd1886c3d.jpeg TX schematic |
This is the Heng Long 6.1 MFU right from the manual. Other then a simple HAYA TK 6.3 sticker shown above they are the same MFU. The transmitter shown above is the new Heng Long transmitter that will be coming with the 6.1 tanks. Regardless the TK 6._ series is proving pretty darn good. Hopefully the new transmitter will have more of a hobby grade feel to it.https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rcu...8161a4e7c.jpeg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rcu...98e20a3b6.jpeg Listed feature and what slot each goes into are the same. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rcu...e7b6933da.jpeg Close up. Changing a label does not change who manufactures it. |
Thanks for that Fsttanks, I stand corrected on that point. I appreciate your input on this as we are aiming to give an honest review and this has come as news to us. We can confirm the new handset is more of a hobby grade feel than the older controllers and the Chieftain has positive and smooth driving characteristics as we did get a chance to run them round a bit. We will be back in contact with Haya ltd to get the latest information on a few points, prior to the review to ensure we are up to speed with all that is going on, as you have shown not much point in doing a review if your giving out incorrect or outdated info. |
Having spoken to Andrew the project director at Haya ltd at length on some of the points raised in this thread I will take the opportunity to relay his answers as he is not a member on this forum. The main points we raised to Haya ltd were, is this model in any way directly connected to the Heng Long brand and is Haya ltd partly or fully a subsidiary of Heng Long. The emphatic answer to that was a no. Andrew was at pains to say although his company Haya ltd is pleased to be the Official Heng Long distributor for the UK it is none the less a separate and totally independent company in its own right and has dealt not only with HL but also with Torro, Matorro and others in the RC model industry. He reiterated one again that the Chieftain is the sole property of Haya ltd U.K. and has been designed, manufactured and assembled by Haya ltd’s team in there own China based manufacturing facility and has been branded to reflect this ownership. He also pointed out no other company has had input or ownership of the Chieftain nor will any other company be selling or producing the Chieftain unless specifically authorised through Haya ltd U.K. He was also quite amused when questioned about having family connections to the Heng Long company. His reply was “ life might be much simpler if I was so lucky. Unfortunately I have no blood or other family ties to them “. So We think that clears that misconception up once and for all. He was happy to confirm Haya had used some of the same common components as HL. He explained his reasoning behind this decision as follows, “these components are available to a number of manufactures of RC models from suppliers in China, they are already in production and have a proven record in the RC market and are readily available to the hobby community world wide so why go to the trouble and expense of re-inventing the wheel”. As for the electronics package we’ve been informed this was again bought by Haya ltd from a common manufacturer based in China for the same reasons as mentioned previously and these products are readily avalible to various RC model company’s. Andrew has told us he did not know HL was using the same system in there premium all metal tanks until he made some calls to China after we let him know of fasttracks post here on RCU and he was concerned as some aspects of the system he ordered were supposed to be exclusive to Haya ltd. As we had not seen or heard of the HL 6.1 system before we mistakenly assumed it was exclusive to the Haya ltd Chieftain and can only apologise for not getting it right and being guilty of shooting from the lip and not checking facts first. Andrew from Haya ltd has also asked us to take this opportunity to remind everyone that Haya ltd U.K. has a website and he is happy to directly address any concerns or questions customers may have about any of his products. Sorry about the long reply gents, just trying to give an honest review of a product from a hobby point of view and cover the points raised in the thread. There are a few points worth looking at and the HL V6.1 system is one of these points. Can anyone supply a link to this system as I spent over an hour looking on the net and found nothing other than the HL V6.0 being mentioned. |
All this makes perfect sense. From a Mfr standpoint. Gear boxes, electronics, detail parts, some may be made or used by HL and possibly others and are a Type Standard, so why reinvent the wheel. IMHO this is where Hooben blew it with their Fury EZ8. Everything is their own design.
The one thing I think is a huge deal on this tank is the wheels for now appear to be plastic rolling on plastic axles. That is a death sentence in a short amount of time if you drive it in dirt alot. They need to add in a brass busing like taigen did on their first model sherman or install bearings on the wheels to stop the plastic to plastic wear that will destroy the axle and make the hole in the wheel bigger. I had to replace the wheels and axles on my HL sherman as I drove them to death. |
A fair point about the road-wheel set up RichJohnson and one that RCTR has put to Haya ltd for future productions as this has been an ongoing issue with most of the tanks RCTR club members run. A couple of solutions have been used by our members to try and overcome this shortfall such as the fitting of aftermarket bearings in our tanks where possible/practical or fitting brass bushings where bearings are not an option. Looking at the Chieftains wheel setup it appears like bushings may be the easy way to go. The wheel shaft on the plastic swing arm is 5mmOD, so a 5mmID ( 6mmOD ) brass tube cut to length will fit over it. Then it’s a case of drilling out the wheels to take a 6mmID ( 7mmOD) brass tube cut to length. There is enough plastic in our opinion if you wish to fit 5mmID bearings with an outside diameter of no more than 10mm And a depth of not more than 3mm. Up to the individual which option is the most practical for there abilities and/or needs. |
Originally Posted by tankman
(Post 12559199)
Having spoken to Andrew the project director at Haya ltd at length on some of the points raised in this thread I will take the opportunity to relay his answers as he is not a member on this forum. The main points we raised to Haya ltd were, is this model in any way directly connected to the Heng Long brand and is Haya ltd partly or fully a subsidiary of Heng Long. The emphatic answer to that was a no. Andrew was at pains to say although his company Haya ltd is pleased to be the Official Heng Long distributor for the UK it is none the less a separate and totally independent company in its own right and has dealt not only with HL but also with Torro, Matorro and others in the RC model industry. He reiterated one again that the Chieftain is the sole property of Haya ltd U.K. and has been designed, manufactured and assembled by Haya ltd’s team in there own China based manufacturing facility and has been branded to reflect this ownership. He also pointed out no other company has had input or ownership of the Chieftain nor will any other company be selling or producing the Chieftain unless specifically authorised through Haya ltd U.K. He was also quite amused when questioned about having family connections to the Heng Long company. His reply was “ life might be much simpler if I was so lucky. Unfortunately I have no blood or other family ties to them “. So We think that clears that misconception up once and for all. He was happy to confirm Haya had used some of the same common components as HL. He explained his reasoning behind this decision as follows, “these components are available to a number of manufactures of RC models from suppliers in China, they are already in production and have a proven record in the RC market and are readily available to the hobby community world wide so why go to the trouble and expense of re-inventing the wheel”. As for the electronics package we’ve been informed this was again bought by Haya ltd from a common manufacturer based in China for the same reasons as mentioned previously and these products are readily avalible to various RC model company’s. Andrew has told us he did not know HL was using the same system in there premium all metal tanks until he made some calls to China after we let him know of fasttracks post here on RCU and he was concerned as some aspects of the system he ordered were supposed to be exclusive to Haya ltd. As we had not seen or heard of the HL 6.1 system before we mistakenly assumed it was exclusive to the Haya ltd Chieftain and can only apologise for not getting it right and being guilty of shooting from the lip and not checking facts first. Andrew from Haya ltd has also asked us to take this opportunity to remind everyone that Haya ltd U.K. has a website and he is happy to directly address any concerns or questions customers may have about any of his products. Sorry about the long reply gents, just trying to give an honest review of a product from a hobby point of view and cover the points raised in the thread. There are a few points worth looking at and the HL V6.1 system is one of these points. Can anyone supply a link to this system as I spent over an hour looking on the net and found nothing other than the HL V6.0 being mentioned. I have no doubt that HAYA did all the R&D work and I applaud them for taking the risk in such a small niche market. I also have no problem with them using HL parts as I have had no real issues with these over the years. Just wish that for the overly high (low introductory) price they had used a higher grade of gearboxes, ball bearing in the wheels and could provide a positive YES to the availability of spare parts. All would better match what others offer for a similar price. We are all waiting for the photos of your test tank. If you could please when you post these include a photo of the molded in company logo usually found on the bottom side of the lower hull. Would love to see if say HAYA inc. |
I've run a small business and with that comes a few facts. I couldn't buy wholesale at the same price that say Walmart could; therefore, I paid more and had to sell my product for more than Walmart did. I understand the higher price of this tank than say a HL. HL now has a long history of producing tanks, selling them, dealing with their vendors, and paying their bills. I'm sure HL doesn't produce all of the parts of it's tanks using in house HL factories. I don't know of any product that is produced 100% "in house". When a small company wants to get into the manufacturing game, suppliers are justified in having some trepidation of getting into business with a company that has unproven business practices. I would say that a higher price would be quoted to a company requesting a small run. Firstly the manufacturer wants to make sure the company they are doing business with is serious about the relationship. Secondly they want to build in some slush to make money due to the unknowns. And thirdly the vendor is producing in a small quantity and so doesn't get as high of a volume discount on it's raw materials. Lastly, the company commissioning the build will often charge a higher initial price to cover R&D, unknowns, and to provide capital for future releases. It is a large investment to get a product to market using injection molding. There is no guarantee that the product you produce is even going to sell once you produce it. There is a ton of risk and it all falls on the shoulders of the company commissioning the build. I applaud Haya for doing this. I can't even recall all of the vendors that have made promises of this release or that release and never followed through. I have never seen a perfect tank for sale in 1/16 scale. All of them I've worked on needed some upgrades of some form to fix something the vendor overlooked (and yes even my Tamiyas) or needed improvement to meet my expectations. It may not even be overlooked, but an issue of manufacturing the part that way or something as simple as cost. I have no special bond with the Chieftain, but I simply liked the looks of the the tank and have zero complaints so far about the price. If the extra money keeps Haya making interesting tanks...I'm happy to pay it - within reason. :) $1800 for a 1/16 scale Maus is a little unreasonable to me seeing as I spent that much on my first real, full sized motorcycle.
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https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rcu...837b44637.jpeg Picture of Haya ltd company logo on Chieftain lower hull as requested. In answer to fasttracks and Tankme observations about spares and tank components. Andrew has assured us he will stand by his product in regards to spare parts and upgrades, He says Haya ltd has allowed for an extra percentage in production for a guaranteed spares supply and he will also be selling the correctly cast metal tracks, drive sprockets, idler and metal track tensioner system for the Chieftain as upgrade/spare parts. We also took the opportunity when we picked up the Chieftain for review to question Andrew on why Haya ltd had not gone the extra mile by putting bearings in the road- wheels or fitting premium gearboxes. He explanation was as follows “ This is our first time at developing and producing an RC model and we had a lot to learn from the outset. The costs of components and having injection moulds made were higher than anticipated and making design changes to parts to include additional features would have resulted in renewing or modifying the existing moulds which would just push the price of a model even higher and delayed delivery. As for the premium gearboxes with bearings throughout there introduction to the market was to late for us to take advantage of as we had already sourced our supplier and once again there would have been extra costs and potential delay to the launch. We are however looking at what can cost effectively be included in any future models we may develop in the future”. Lastly the requested picture of the Haya ltd logo on the Chieftain lower hull. Hope this answers some of your concerns gents, full review to follow ASAP. |
Nice. Also confirms the 1st addition to make - jacking plates to add to the four corners of the underside - see post 18 October - Chinese Eye Chieftain - Page 8 - Armortek -
Mal |
Nicely spotted Mal, a useful detail touch there that I knew nothing about. Thanks for posting that. Alan |
Hi Alan
The Armortek Chieftain forum is a great source for chieftain stories & obscure detail, the jacking plates were new to me too, though have since seen them in one or two old chieftain photos. Another obscure item is the Battle Link that I've not seen mentioned in any of my reference books - I'll let you find that one yourself, rather than provide a direct link - you'll enjoy the journey. To get you there - the vicinity anyway - Chieftain MBT - Armortek - Mal |
Thanks Mal will do. Alan |
I have persuaded DKLM to pre-order some for the club and myself.
We will definitely persuade him to release upgrade parts again if it helps.:) I am think maybe some photo-etch for the basket and details as well as metal reinforcement. |
I really feel for Andrew/Haya and the trials the Chieftain had to go through to come to market - first it was accused as being a copy of another guy's scratchbuild, then it gets mistaken for a rebranded Heng Long (but not without good reason). In any case it is a good-looking tank and even though the UK pound is weak, being here in Singapore, it sounds a bit silly to buy a tank that was made in China, shipped halfway across the world to the UK and then shipped 2/5ths of the way back to me.
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