Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

was having the age old discussion on scale contests, in particular scale sound and scale speed. I have not been in as many scale contests as some of you and more than most. The question that always, and I mean always rears its funny if not ugly head is scale realism in flight. with the new radials that are out there, inlines I am sure are not to far behind and the solo props and their competition (if any). How do you judge scale sound or speed and sight realism or should sound and perhaps a 4 blade prop for instance be taken into account? i would love to hear from some actual judges of course but all are welcome as I am sure we can learn from this thread. What does a merlin sound like vs Allison vs pratt and whitney. I remember when 4 strokes made us believe how much more real our planes sounded....until you heard the real deal. The new radials are fantastic but you have to admit, no where close to a real radial.

rrudytoo

My Feedback: (27)

So, if we are really considering judging a scale performance with a criteria based on realistic engine sounds in addition to scale fidelity and flight replication, how does that affect those who compete? Simply put, it jacks an already expensive endevour into the realm of the financial elite. Just what would a scale Merlin or Allison cost? I'll tell you, too freakin' much!

By even entertaining such a notion is to exclude those who are already sacrificing a lot to compete with what they have. Would the guys with the single cylinder gas engine have to complete with Daddy Warbucks and his 1/4 scale Griffon-powered Spitfire or would there be two separate classes?

This is too much for me, frankly. This hobby is supposed to be about fun and challenges to both building and flying skills. Not about how much money one has to throw into the air. But, hey, that's just me.

Al

David Bathe

As you mentioned, no small (or big) glow or gasser, 2 or 4 stroke sounds anying like a full sized aircraft.
Theres a couple of vid's out there showing 1/4 scale Merlin engines being fired up... whereas they demonstraight fantastic engineering skills they still don't sound like a full sizer! Why... scale? Possibly not.
Listen to a full sized Merlin in a Spitfire, then one in a boat and another in a car (yes it's been done) What do you get. Three TOTALLY different sounds.
Aircraft (engine) sound is generated primerily by the prop, not the engine.
For us RCer's the follwing is true: the bigger the prop, the quieter the engine the better the scale sound.
Sound odd but it works. Problem is that we can't get our smaller engines quiet enough and we can get 'em to swing real big props. The more we muffle them, the more power we rob, the smaller prop we need problem goes on. Using a reducion gear system and some serious Euro mufflers can genuinely help but...
unfortunately (for some), the absolute best way of getting scale sound is to drop the IC engine completely.
Epower+huge pro+sound generator=
Now I'm geared up for IC but seeing/listening to some e1/4 scallers.
Jez, it's over. No competition.

BTW, the big Moki radials sound great... not scale... but great all the same.

mboland

I have always been interested in scale but have only recently been able to start adding the details needed for a competitive model, such as the panel lines, rivets etc, etc etc.

But I have read much, and as a technician by trade I have always been interested in the scale efforts of other people.

I too, would like to hear from any aficionados on the subject, anyone who judges the "big Boys" in scale, to give me a glimmer of what they look for.

On the scale engine subject, I did follow with interest the developments of V12 as well as V8 model engines, and the scale radials which one can now buy (if your pockets are deep enough) but here lies the rub. A scale V12 has so much internal resistance that it cannot be used for an aircraft of the same scale as the motor.
So don't panic about the obscenely rich taking all the prizes cause they have a scale Merlin in their 1/5 or 1/4 scale Spit.

And as has been noted, the scale motors, although they sound sweet, don't sound the "same" as the real deal.
So what is to be done. You could go electric with a nice 100 Watt sound system and good digital sound card, but to me that defeats the whole purpose.
It's gotta have a REAL motor, with all it's vibration, noise and hassles. But that's just me.

But further on the scale realism bit there is a point that you are overlooking that is real for any competitors right now.
Realism of Flight.

We all know that light is right, and any lightly loaded warbird can cruise past in a very real and scale like speed, in a straight line.
As soon as manoeuvres are attempted, however, it all looks wrong.
Take the same model at higher wing loadings and the manoeuvres look real and scale like, but straight line speed is like a bullet.
So the real competitive scale flyer has to take either end or find a happy medium in between.

It is especially in this aspect I would love to hear opinions from any REAL scale flyers/judges as opposed to myself, just a humble balsa basher.

glazier808

My Feedback: (1)

I went with an electric setup on my Fliteskin ME 109F, that will give me a scale speed range with just alittle more(WEP). I'm using soft mounts, to reduce vibration. Now I have a scale envelope, with a clean cowl.(no engine poking out).

http://www.aerosoundrc.com/

Check out my DB on fire up!

Here's the link to the demo sound page

http://www.aerosoundrc.com/demos.htm

glazier808

My Feedback: (1)

Check these out


Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMh5C...e_gdata_player




Casey

carlbecker

My Feedback: (3)

I am not sure we can get models to fly just like the real ones but the larger radial power models do a better job than anything else I have seen or heard. Radials are expensive but I purchase them from others at a reduced price which helps. Full scale engines run at much lower rpm than the model engines as well as smaller props. This does make a difference in sound. I only have a few planes and most of what I want to build from now on will be powered by radials. They are smooth, great sound, heavy, expensive and thristy but deliver the results I want. I just lost my 29% Jungmeister Sat. It was 25 pounds powered by a Saito 325 and Keleo muffler. Heavy and slow it flew close to scale. The next Jungmeister I build will be lighter and more aerobatic and I hope closer to perfect.

Experten109/40

My Feedback: (-1)

so if I take a P-40 at full throttle and scale it down to 1:7.. that would be 53mph.
scale weight would be 1142lbs. now if the model weights 8-10lbs in order for
it to manuver more scale-like one would have to use shorter throws on the elevators
and ailerons to compensate for the obviouse weight difference and that would get a
scale flight, instead of it flying like a stunt plane? correct? or am I missing something
here?
on a side note, with single cylinder 4-stroke engines, with the right exhaust..
+ a 3-blade prop sounds pretty good to me.

SCALECRAFT

My Feedback: (13)

For me personally, before I would consider scale speed, and sound, I would look to fly with scale size prop, shape, and number of blades. I feel the introduction of brushless motors along with gear down systems can do it.

At the Prado model airfield, Ca. the electric fly in had a large P-51D that was electric, the prop blades made a very realistic sound on its fly by. And that was with a 2 blade prop.

So in a way, scale sound of the prop blades can be heard. Closer to real than a model engine drowning out the blade sound.

I'm going to try it.

Steve

CorsairJock

My Feedback: (90)

Roughly speaking: about $300. Really not that much, compared to everything else.

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

Scale realism in flight is only one score. Half of the competative score comes from Static scores. So I dont think daddy war bucks is going to win based on his bucks.

Electic fligh does offern some sound systems that while not perfect do a pretty good job of simulating the full sized aircrafts sound. As technology progresses things will get better on that front.

Radials sound great to my ears. Much better than a big gas burner for sure. Are they cheap? nope but it is what it is.

IL2windhawk

Those electric sound systems are a cost effective way to get a Merlin sound. I'm a gas/glow guy myself... but I admit those electric birds with speakers sound really cool.

More inlines on the market??? yes please! gas 4-stroke twin inlines...

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

I dont think were gettiing the point on some fronts here. Scaleing down a full size isnt about #s. Scale realism is so subjective it boggles the mind of the competitors and the judges. We have all heard the arguments about how fast a 1/5th scale should fly and how much it should etc. If it looks right then it is right.....If it sounds good then is it right? Hopefully the scale scene doesnt turn into a deep pockets contest but it is headed in that direction, look at the current trends....larger, electrics, turbines ......am I missing anything? Now would you as a pilot expect extra points for haviing a radial engine in your radial powered plane even though it cant be seen or judged? Where are the judges at?

CorsairJock

My Feedback: (90)

Unfortunately, what looks right to one does not necessarily look right to another. Many think that warbirds should buzz by, as if on steroids. I've been to way too many full scale airshows to agree with that type of thinking. If the full scale topped out at 400 mph, then a 1/5 scale shoud be flying at 80 mph or less, IMO, to look right for me.

alanc

We recently had our anual power nationals, one of the R/C scale judges brought along to the YT stand, his YT/ESM Hurricane, electric powered, with a full Bendini sound system, and machine gun sound, let me tell you, IT WAS THE MOST REALISTIC MERLIN I HAVE HEARD, it demeoed tick over, with the correct sound right through the full sizes rev range, even had the back fire when throttling back,, with the merlin crackle, so loved, coupled with 2 speakers in underside rebatements, the realism was total, we ran it on the sunday at selected times, and we drew quite a crowd, i think we have a few details, i will go look for you, the plane was also hyper scaled, uses our retracts, and was one of the best examples of what you can do with a basic kit, the future for total realism, is, and i am CHOKING here, electric

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

I hate to admit it also Alan but as soon as batteries become more afforable and have longer run times........we will see more of them at scale contest and dare I say a winner at Top Gun within the next 3 yrs.

glazier808

My Feedback: (1)

that is exactly the system I have the link for above, just the U.S. provider. I'm using the Bendini sound system in my electric powered, 80" Fliteskin Me109F, with the Daimler Benz V12 sound with machine gun effects on a separate channel. I'll also be simulating the muzzelflash in the cowl guns with tinybritelights.
I know Rams looked in on my build http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_95...tm.htm#9505495 I plan on being at WOTR in 2011, and hope to qualify for nats.

I'm also doing a 83" Brian Taylor Spitfire Mk VIII. Once again all electric, Bendini sound, ect, ect, ect.

once I saw some of Johns video's with his sound systems installed, I was sold....there is no better way to simulate the real plane at this time. Electric. Everythings hidden, with high quality sound ....hard to beat!

glazier808

My Feedback: (1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMh5C...e_gdata_player


Just watch this vid guys, turn up the speakers abit so you can hear the actual "doppler" effect of the 109 as it passes over...sounds pretty damn real to me!

glazier808

My Feedback: (1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a_TETqe1Cg

now here is the real one starting up, listen to the demo for the DB V12 and see what you think?

here's the demo's again....

http://www.aerosoundrc.com/demos.htm

Casey

oistein

My Feedback: (1)

There is something wrong in your calculation of weight here. As the weight is proportional with the volume of the aircraft, therefore you have to divide the weight of the real one with 343. 7^3 = 343. Scale speed is about appearance so i would assume divide by 7 to get an idea. Then you will have to take into account that there is something called appearant speed proportional to how far from the spectator you are flying. The further away you are flying the faster you can fly for it to look like the real airplane.

glazier808

My Feedback: (1)

who let the rocket scientist in here?


LOL

just kiddn, man you got one sharp brain pan there!

Scale Specialties

Alright, let's break it down. One of the main goals of scale modeling is to recreate the overall feel and experiene of watching a fullsize aircraft fly and perform. The idea is to create the illusion that approximates that experience as close as possible. If you had a magical shrinking machine that took a fullsize Merlin turning a constant speed Hamilton Standard for example and shrunk it to 1/6 scale, it would not sound and feel as realistic as most people might suspect. Without going into a physics dissertation, the tempo of smaller objects, ie scale models is necessarly faster than larger objects. A good example of this is a comparison between a fullsize pendulum clock and a miniature. Both are fully functional, and keep accurate time. Now, when watching the pendulum of the miniature it will appear to move back and forth faster than its big brother, this is because it has to displace less distance on each swing. In aviation this can be seen when watching a 747 or other large plane coming in to land and it looks pretty slow. This is opposed to a much smaller aircraft that appears faster even though the actual speeds may be identical. Bottom line is there are way too many things working against you when it comes to achieving ultimate realism in modeling, so just have fun and if it looks good, it is good.....

Experten109/40

My Feedback: (-1)

thanks for the tip . P-40's weight divided by 343 is 20lbs on the nose. still a tad much for a 1:7scale P-40.
7 times smaller means looking a the real thing 7 time further away from ones perspective. same effect,,
just a difference in perspective. so in my eyes, 7times slower spped at any distance aproximates the
same effect as looking at the real thing.

Airplanes400

My Feedback: (349)

You want total scale realism in an R/C plane? I got just the answer ... Throw the most powerful servos into a full size plane and fly it from your transmitter ... There you have it !! A full sized R/C plane that IS the real thing with the real scale sound and looks!

ZachB10

My Feedback: (9)

Where do you get a scaleMerlin for $300? Iwill buy one now.
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