Old Erkki

Greetings from Finland

I know that this is little OT but people have many times mentioned that it was personnel, not plane, which made difference. So, who was the greatest aerial warrior?

Here is some examples
Oswald Boelkce and Max Immelman -developed fighter tactics
Manfred von Richthofen - the Red Baron
Erich Hartmann - Most confirmed aerial victories
Douglas Bader -lost legs but became wing commander and ace
Herman Goering -created Luftwaffe
Sir Arthur Harris -Ruined Germany
Curtis Le May -Burned most of major Japan cities
Andrew Warburton -most efficient recce pilot
Guy Gibson - Dambusters
Ivan Kotshebud- Top scoring allied ace

Old Erkki

wingspar

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None of your examples.

I think it would have to be Hans Rudel.

Rudel flew 2,530 combat missions claiming a total of 2,000 targets destroyed; including 800 vehicles, 519 tanks, 150 artillery pieces, a destroyer, two cruisers, one Soviet battleship (the Marat), 70 landing craft, 4 armored trains, several bridges and nine aircraft which he shot down.

All in an outdated Stuka

Dave

Ernie P.

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An interesting subject; but one which has to be defined. What do you mean by "greatest aerial warrior"? In my opinion, there are four areas in which an aviator may excell:

1. His skill and effectiveness in the airplane. For a fighter pilot, that would translate to victories; or mission accomplishments for other aviators.

2. His leadership of the men under his command. How well did he train, instruct and lead them; to increase their effectiveness?

3. His effectiveness in developing new aerial tactics.

4. His overall effect on the conduct of the war in which he fought.

When all of these are considered, I believe the answer is the Baron Von Richthofen. Thanks; Ernie P.

Experten109/40

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Erich Hartmann for 3 simple facts:

~ highest scoring ace in history
~ never got shot down
~ never loss a wingman - this is what he was most proud of.

that makes him the 'ace of aces'

Helijet

You should read Chuck Yeager's biography. Now there was pilot!

Dean W.

SCALECRAFT

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I would have to agree. But also honorable mention should go to Hans- Joachim Marseille JG 27 North Afrika. 115 victories I think. All his victories were against more comparable Hurricanes, P-40s to his BF 109F4, not outdated Polikarpovs and junk like that as in the Russian theatre.

Steve

Experten109/40

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but without the Me 109 flying escorts for the JU 87's, Hans Rudel wouldn't have lasted long.

STUKA BARRY

AHHH, but alot of that he did on his own. He and Georing were'nt exactly best of friends. Plus his Stuka is one (chicago Museum) of only two left in the world. Where is Hartmans 109?

stang

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These guys were all notable but I'd say you have to go back to the beginning and see what the WW1 guys accomplished with primitive equipment.
I'd suggest Billy Bishop as one of the top air warriors of all time.

Air Marshal William Avery "Billy" Bishop VC, CB, DSO & Bar, MC, DFC, ED (8 February 1894 – 11 September 1956) was a Canadian First World War flying ace, officially credited with 72 victories, making him the top Canadian ace, and according to some sources, the top ace of the British Empire.

Experten109/40

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well, the russians ground looped his 109 while on a test flightthen threw him in the Gulag for 10years of hard labour for being a war criminal.
no doubt Rudel did alot on his own, the man had tallent, but for those deep missions into russia they needed escorts.

Hartmann did shoot down alot of outdated russian aircraft, but he also shot down alot of Americans and more modern russian planes.
all while never getting shot down or losing a wingman. no other German ace can claim both.

mimoore67

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This is one of those questions that has no answer! The fact that one pilot over another has so many variables that it would almost make impossible if not impossible to state single individual as being the best. There are so many variables, like mentioned before, theater of war, aircraft flown against, particular enemies pilot training and on and on.

When I meet anyone who has flown combat, I just have to admire them for their bravery and skills as a pilot, no matter if they shot down someone or got shot down themselves. As a pilot, there's certain amount skill you need, as fighter pilot there's a skill set that goes way beyond the average person, as a fighter pilot in combat, there's a a realm that those who haven't experienced it, can never really grasp.

The43rdHammer

I'm staggered nobody's mentioned Werner Voss... at the time he was thought of as beingfar more talented than Manfred Von Richtofen.

He diedin one of the most famous dogfights of all time whereupon he took on the whole of theelite 56 Squadron RFC single handed and very nearly shot the lot down.

I'm English so I'm biased as well!

grbaker

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"There are pilots and there are pilots; with the good ones, it is inborn. You can't teach it. If you are a fighter pilot, you have to be willing to take risks." Brig. Gen. Robin Olds

US Fighter pilots used to say that there was a glass case in the Pentagon built to the precise dimensions of then-Colonel Robin Olds, who would be frozen and displayed wearing his rankless flight suit, crushed fore and aft cap, gloves, and torso harness with .38 and survival knife. Beside the case, was a fire ax beneath a sign reading :

"In case of war, break glass."

http://www.usafa1961.org/robin_olds.htm

G-Pete

Well, there is more to that legend - he spent over 10 years as POW in Russian camps. After he was back home he took again a officer position in the German Airforce, were he was forced to retire because of massive complaints about the F-104 Quote "Hartmann considered the F-104 a fundamentally flawed and unsafe aircraft and strongly opposed its adoption by the Bundesluftwaffe ". He was right and over 200 crashes and 100+ dead German pilots proved that sad fact...

He died 1993 at age 71.


Side note:

In Germany his name among others will be not mentioned in any school book - slowly these guys will be forgotten. I would say Erich is more known in the US than in Germany.

Yes, I would say "Bubi" is the greatest aerial warrior all times - achievement, endurance, sacrifice and character entitle him to that.

Scar

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Among the names, designer Kelly Johnson would have to be mentioned. Those brave and capable pilots would have been infantrymen or sailors, were it not for the visionaries who created their flying weapons.

My 2¢ worth,
Dave Olson

F4u5

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Tom Cruise....aka "Maverick" from the movie top gun was the best pilot ever! Goose was the best RIO!

G-Pete

He would not pass the physical requirements by the USAF height wise

F4u5

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True....[8D]

MANFRED

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Don't forget Bong, Mcguire, Sakai, Nishizawa, Fonck, Mannock, Rickenbacker, Rall, Barkhorn, Iwamoto, Juutilainen, Kozuhedub, Pokryshkin, McCampbell, Gabreski, Preddy, Pattle, Tuck, Albert, Lucchini, Skalski, McConnell, Jabara, Cunningham, each was either the top or among the top from their nation or conflict. But really for me, it has to be MANFRED.

The43rdHammer

Other German WWII pilots (Hartmann included) considered Galland to be better, he fought on the western front which (with all respect to the Russian pilots) was considered more demanding.

Galland himself considered Hans-Joachim Marseille to be the best pilot in the Luftwaffe by virtue of his outstanding marksmanship.

It's interesting how opinions vary so much... fascinating thread!

glazier808

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For these same reasons and more....

Adolfo

"Galland" the dandy of the skys...

800mZero

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Personally,


I think Emil Lang -the man shot down 18 aircraft in a day, had amazing efficiency againts all allied aircraft, and if not for a landing gear failure would have continued to wreak havok.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Lang_(fighter_ace)

JL1

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How about Medal Of Honor winner James Howard

glazier808

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Galland even told the fat man he wanted Spits for his men!

Now that's balls!

glazier808

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Then you have Hanna, no combat but BALLS and one hell of a pilot!