Go Back  RCU Forums > RC Airplanes > RC Warbirds and Warplanes
Reload this Page >

Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

Notices
RC Warbirds and Warplanes Discuss rc warbirds and warplanes in this forum.

Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

Old 01-20-2011, 07:00 PM
  #1  
Ed
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bemis, NM
Posts: 2,889
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

I have a 28 lb Ziroli Stuka that fails to track straight during landing rollout. The surface is asphalt. It takes off straight as a string, and touches down real easy, but then as speed bleeds off, it goes bonkers, and cannot be kept straight during landing rollout. It even might turn 90*, and drag a wing tip. About 1/4" toe-in is what is built into the supplied wire landing gear. Yes, the Stuka landing gear is spaced close, but I think that it might be the toe-in that is getting me into trouble. What do you think ? Taking out the toe-in is not an easy task. Each landing gear is made up of two pieces, and welded. It's very frustrating to touch down nice and straight on just the main wheels, and then have it go sideways.

Thanks for your help.

Ed
Ed is offline  
Old 01-20-2011, 07:43 PM
  #2  
eagle1945
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 68
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

camber in -toe out
eagle1945 is offline  
Old 01-20-2011, 08:00 PM
  #3  
Dash7ATP
 
Dash7ATP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Smithfield,, VA
Posts: 1,008
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

I'm not sure what you mean by 1/4" of toe in. It is usually measured in degrees.  I have never heard of setting toe-out on a tailwheel airplane. I think that would be looking for trouble. I typically try to set up my gear so that a correct sized piano wire inserted in one strut (assuming you can do that) will be barely aft of the center of the opposite wheel.  I'm talking less than 1/8 inch if you can get it to hold that setting.  Toe -out will typically cause problems on takeoff from my experience. 

Are you making wheel landings or attempting three point landings?  I don't know about the Stuka, but my P-40 and P-47 both have a slight amount of toe-in and they handle very well on roll out. I try to make wheel landings.

Good luck!

Dash
Dash7ATP is offline  
Old 01-20-2011, 10:42 PM
  #4  
Luft-Gangster
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Pinckney, MI
Posts: 421
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

Again, don't know what you mean by 1/4" toe in, but I fly of paved runways ane toe in is good while toe out is bad. Ifone wheel lifts off the ground,the other is contoling direction. Movine to centerline is good, moving opposite is bad. I use 1 to 2 degrees of toe in and have had no problems on paved runways. Grass is more forgiving.
Luft-Gangster is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 04:05 AM
  #5  
carlbecker
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
 
carlbecker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Fairfax, VA
Posts: 2,071
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

Toe in on pavement makes my Jungmeister uncontrollabe. On grass it doesn't seem to matter. I try to set up with no toe. I have read many posts about using toe out instead. Why don't you try straight, no toe at all and see how it taxies.
carlbecker is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 06:52 AM
  #6  
STUKA BARRY
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Summerfield, NC
Posts: 1,946
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?


ORIGINAL: Ed

I have a 28 lb Ziroli Stuka that fails to track straight during landing rollout. The surface is asphalt. It takes off straight as a string, and touches down real easy, but then as speed bleeds off, it goes bonkers, and cannot be kept straight during landing rollout. It even might turn 90*, and drag a wing tip. About 1/4'' toe-in is what is built into the supplied wire landing gear. Yes, the Stuka landing gear is spaced close, but I think that it might be the toe-in that is getting me into trouble. What do you think ? Taking out the toe-in is not an easy task. Each landing gear is made up of two pieces, and welded. It's very frustrating to touch down nice and straight on just the main wheels, and then have it go sideways.

Thanks for your help.

Ed
There is nothing wrong with the wire gear that has flown hundreds of Stukas since Nick drew the plans. If the Stuka taxi's straight, runs down the runway full throttle straight, then the problem on landing is your not using the rudder properly if at all if it veres to one side or goes "bonkers" as you say. The Stuka is a very easy forgiving plane, but it still is a warbird and needs to be flown like one which includes getting on the rudder. I'm sure with practice you to will master it.
STUKA BARRY is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 11:50 AM
  #7  
Ed
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bemis, NM
Posts: 2,889
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

" I'm not sure what you mean by 1/4" of toe in. " What I mean is that the front of the 5 1/4" wheel, is offset about 1/4" inward, rather then absolutely straight. About 2* I would guess.

" If the Stuka taxi's straight, runs down the runway full throttle straight, then the problem on landing is your not using the rudder properly " Yes Stuka Barry, I want to believe that you are absolutely correct, and all that I need to do is learn to use the rudder better. It taxies straight, and runs arrow straight right down the runway under power. But without power during landing rollout, it goes wacko. It uses the 1/4" welded wire supplied by Ziroli and I fly off of pavement. I fly it well, and touch it down on it's main gear very lightly, no bounce. It runs straight for a few yards, and then veres either left or right, like it had a mind of it's own. Could a slight cross wind be causeing it to weathervane ? Because if so; then all that I would need to do, is counter, by steering it away from the wind ? I have yet to land it with the wind straight down the runway, but the cross wind that I have been experiencing has been light.

Thanks all, for all of your help. And please keep the suggestions coming.

Ed
Ed is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 11:53 AM
  #8  
Experten109/40
Senior Member
My Feedback: (-1)
 
Experten109/40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bad Lippspringe, 1944, GERMANY
Posts: 2,658
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

mabey onewheel is just tight enough to make it roll slower when not under power, causing the
eratic turns.. just a though.
Experten109/40 is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 12:01 PM
  #9  
Ed
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bemis, NM
Posts: 2,889
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

" mabey one wheel is just tight enough to make it roll slower when not under power, causing the
eratic turns.. just a though. "



Both wheels turn freely, and the direction that it turns varies. Usually into the wind.

Ed
Ed is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 12:10 PM
  #10  
Experten109/40
Senior Member
My Feedback: (-1)
 
Experten109/40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bad Lippspringe, 1944, GERMANY
Posts: 2,658
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

oh, I see. then as Barry suggested, start using the rudder.
Experten109/40 is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 01:24 PM
  #11  
c550
My Feedback: (16)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Tomball, TX
Posts: 575
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

The toe in seem alot but its hard to find fault with Ziroli. However, you hav to consider that as the model decelerates the rudder becomes less effective, also the tail is still pretty light so the tail wheel has yet to become effective at steering. The rudder is partly blanked out by the canopy so it is less effective. You don't see this as much on take off because of the prop wash on the rudder and the fact that you are forcing the tail down with elevator for the first part of the roll and then when you raise the tail the rudder has a decent amount of airflow to give you control.

Hope that helps,

Dave
c550 is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 02:39 PM
  #12  
ZERO-322
My Feedback: (2)
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Elmwood Park , IL
Posts: 1,455
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

I think you hit the nail on the head I had a similar problem drove myself nuts trying to figure it out until bu chance I swaped tires that where a little more loose fitting and wola ! problem solved

sometimes the easiest solutions can solve huge problems as long as we don't over think it
ZERO-322 is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 05:07 PM
  #13  
NCIS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Janesville, WI
Posts: 4,948
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?


ORIGINAL: eagle1945

camber in - toe out
WHAT??? Toe out is rediculous. If you align even a car they make the front tires toed in slightly. Even a snowmobile has it's skies toed in. What turnip truck did you fall off of??? Camber hasn't got anything to do with his question. But your in titled to your opinion even if it is ludicrous. GET REAL DUDE!!!

Sorry but I had a bad day and just don't want you to listen to bad advise. Put in toe in about 1/16" to 3/32". Thats about 1 or 2 degrees.

Happy flying Comrade!,

Barry
NCIS is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 05:14 PM
  #14  
paint-boy
Member
 
paint-boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hector, MN
Posts: 77
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?


ORIGINAL: NCIS

WHAT??? Toe out is rediculous. If you align even a car they make the front tires toed in slightly. Even a snowmobile has it's skies toed in. What turnip truck did you fall off of??? Camber hasn't got anything to do with his question. But your in titled to your opinion even if it is ludicrous. GET REAL DUDE!!!

Sorry but I had a bad day and just don't want you to listen to bad advise. Put in toe in about 1/16'' to 3/32''. Thats about 1 or 2 degrees.

Happy flying Comrade!,

Barry
It's called "tact" Barry, try it sometime.
paint-boy is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 05:19 PM
  #15  
Experten109/40
Senior Member
My Feedback: (-1)
 
Experten109/40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bad Lippspringe, 1944, GERMANY
Posts: 2,658
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?


ORIGINAL: NCIS
If you align even a car they make the front tires toed in slightly. Even a snowmobile has it's skies toed in.
not every Factory car is toed in Barry, and not every snowmobile either.
Experten109/40 is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 05:50 PM
  #16  
glazier808
My Feedback: (1)
 
glazier808's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Honolulu , HI
Posts: 3,985
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

ORIGINAL: NCIS


ORIGINAL: eagle1945

camber in - toe out
WHAT??? Toe out is rediculous. If you align even a car they make the front tires toed in slightly. Even a snowmobile has it's skies toed in. What turnip truck did you fall off of??? Camber hasn't got anything to do with his question. But your in titled to your opinion even if it is ludicrous. GET REAL DUDE!!!

Sorry but I had a bad day and just don't want you to listen to bad advise. Put in toe in about 1/16'' to 3/32''. Thats about 1 or 2 degrees.

Happy flying Comrade!,

Barry
first of all you have to remember who's posting, so just don't give it any mind.

My Brian Taylor Corsair was squirrly as heck on the ground durring takeoff until I put a couple of degrees TOE OUT into the left gear, so as the torque lifted the right wing, the toe out wanted to force it down. It took me a few times to get it ironed out, but after I did it corrected all bad tendencys(other that pilot related)on take offs.

Casey

glazier808 is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 05:55 PM
  #17  
NCIS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Janesville, WI
Posts: 4,948
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

ORIGINAL: paint-boy


ORIGINAL: NCIS

WHAT??? Toe out is rediculous. If you align even a car they make the front tires toed in slightly. Even a snowmobile has it's skies toed in. What turnip truck did you fall off of??? Camber hasn't got anything to do with his question. But your in titled to your opinion even if it is ludicrous. GET REAL DUDE!!!

Sorry but I had a bad day and just don't want you to listen to bad advise. Put in toe in about 1/16'' to 3/32''. Thats about 1 or 2 degrees.

Happy flying Comrade!,

Barry
It's called ''tact'' Barry, try it sometime.
Tact is for putting up wanted posters. It's funny you knew that. Are you an outlaw?

Barry
NCIS is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 06:20 PM
  #18  
frets24
Senior Member
My Feedback: (15)
 
frets24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,242
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

ORIGINAL: Ed

'' I'm not sure what you mean by 1/4'' of toe in. '' What I mean is that the front of the 5 1/4'' wheel, is offset about 1/4'' inward, rather then absolutely straight. About 2* I would guess.



Thanks all, for all of your help. And please keep the suggestions coming.

Ed

If I've figured this formula correctly using right triangle (90*) math and knowing two sides of the triangle described by your wheel: then a right triangle with known sides of 5.25 and .25 yields a toe in of 6.78deg. That may be just a bit too much, but still not so much as to be a big problem.

I'm leaning towards the "rudder is your friend" camp here.

I have a 76" WS J3 Cub that will ground loop in an instant if you're not absolutely on top of the rudder. It was a great help in getting proficient with that left stick and being able to stay ahead of the same problem you are having with your Stuka. Initially I had the same issues with both my Spitfire and my ME-109 swerving all over on the landing, but working out with the Cub got me and the problem "straightened out".
frets24 is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 06:52 PM
  #19  
Ed
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bemis, NM
Posts: 2,889
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

frets, I just came back from the shop after measuring about 4 degrees toe-in. The wheels are 5", and not 5.25". Do you still think that this is my problem, or should I consentrate mostly on steering it with the rudder ?

For you Ziroli Stuka owners using the 1/4" welded wire gear, what would be the best way to remove some of this excess toe-in without removing the gear from the wing frame ?

Thanks again.

Ed
Ed is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 07:21 PM
  #20  
Ed
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bemis, NM
Posts: 2,889
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

" There is nothing wrong with the wire gear that has flown hundreds of Stukas since Nick drew the plans. If the Stuka taxi's straight, runs down the runway full throttle straight, then the problem on landing is your not using the rudder properly if at all if it veres to one side or goes "bonkers" as you say. The Stuka is a very easy forgiving plane, but it still is a warbird and needs to be flown like one which includes getting on the rudder. I'm sure with practice you to will master it. " - Stuka Barry

Stuka Barry, I just measured 4 degrees toe-in on each wheel. Is this excessive, and if so, how can I remove some of it without removing the gear from the wing frame ? I took this Stuka in a trade, and don't know how it was treated previously. Or, should I just concentrate more on steering it with the rudder ? Again ..... It taxi's straight, and takes off straight .

Ed


Ed is offline  
Old 01-22-2011, 05:34 AM
  #21  
GerKonig
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Levittown, PA
Posts: 1,987
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?


ORIGINAL: Ed

'' I'm not sure what you mean by 1/4'' of toe in. '' What I mean is that the front of the 5 1/4'' wheel, is offset about 1/4'' inward, rather then absolutely straight. About 2* I would guess.

'' If the Stuka taxi's straight, runs down the runway full throttle straight, then the problem on landing is your not using the rudder properly '' Yes Stuka Barry, I want to believe that you are absolutely correct, and all that I need to do is learn to use the rudder better. It taxies straight, and runs arrow straight right down the runway under power. But without power during landing rollout, it goes wacko. It uses the 1/4'' welded wire supplied by Ziroli and I fly off of pavement. I fly it well, and touch it down on it's main gear very lightly, no bounce. It runs straight for a few yards, and then veres either left or right, like it had a mind of it's own. Could a slight cross wind be causeing it to weathervane ? Because if so; then all that I would need to do, is counter, by steering it away from the wind ? I have yet to land it with the wind straight down the runway, but the cross wind that I have been experiencing has been light.

Thanks all, for all of your help. And please keep the suggestions coming.

Ed
I had a cub with that behavior. It calmed down with toe-in on the LG. I would look into using a gyro (they are quite inexpensive now for what I heard) on the rudder if you fly frequenty of pavement.

Gerry
GerKonig is offline  
Old 01-22-2011, 07:47 AM
  #22  
Tmoth4
My Feedback: (1)
 
Tmoth4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Northfield Center, OH
Posts: 2,205
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

I've been thinking about it a lot and I can see that toe-OUT would help the plane if it's already starting to ground loop. The plane would be tipping towards the outside of the turn, the inside wheel would be lifting off the ground, and then the toed-OUT wheel would help keep the plane going straght.

However, under most other circumstances: takeoff roll, taxiing, landing rollout, etc., toe-IN would be better because (as mentioned above) when the plane is rolling forward and one wheel lifts from a gust or bounce, the toed-IN wheel would help keep the plane going straight.

In my experience, a slight amount of toe-IN has always helped my taildraggers handle better on the ground. I put about 1 degrees of toe-IN.

4 degrees of toe-IN sounds kind of excessive to me. That might be what's getting you into trouble.

Jim
Tmoth4 is offline  
Old 01-22-2011, 08:01 AM
  #23  
exfed
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Mt. Juliet, TN
Posts: 42
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?

Ed. Remember, cars have tow-in and not tow-out for a good reason. Tow-in contributes to straight-ahead stability. It also causes the steering to try to center when turning. All models should have some slight tow-in for directional stability. It's even more important with a tail dragger. The C.G. on your Stuka is aft of the main gear and as such, the model is just looking for an excuse to yaw and turn.
A subtle contributor to tow-out is a slop in the gear its self. If the wheels are too loose and wobbly on the axles, that will equate to tow-out the first time the model senses a yawing action. Snug up wobbly wheels with some inserts of brass tubing. Any looseness and play in the gear needs to be eliminated. Some of our expensive retract systems with their sissor linkage have a lot of slop and benefit from some shim work.
I really think the most of your problem is rudder control. Note that the Stuka vertical stab/rudder isn't all that large to begin with, and when the tail settles during the roll-out, there is a tendency for the wing to blankout some of the effectiveness of the rudder. If you don't believe this is a factor, ask any Beech D-18 pilot Good luck and let us know if any of this helps.
exfed is offline  
Old 01-22-2011, 08:08 AM
  #24  
Experten109/40
Senior Member
My Feedback: (-1)
 
Experten109/40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bad Lippspringe, 1944, GERMANY
Posts: 2,658
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?


ORIGINAL: exfed

Ed. Remember, cars have tow-in and not tow-out for a good reason. Tow-in contributes to straight-ahead stability. It also causes the steering to try to center when turning.
ok, again not all cars are toed-in. when you start getting into the high performance, exotic, handle like its on
rails machines, you'll notice that they are mostly going toe-out.

they give up some tire wear & economy for that. also, they have no problems going in a straight line, and in
fact are more stable in straight line hi-speed runs.

Experten109/40 is offline  
Old 01-22-2011, 08:50 AM
  #25  
STUKA BARRY
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Summerfield, NC
Posts: 1,946
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is toe-in good to have on a Ziroli Stuka used on asphalt ?


ORIGINAL: Ed

'' There is nothing wrong with the wire gear that has flown hundreds of Stukas since Nick drew the plans. If the Stuka taxi's straight, runs down the runway full throttle straight, then the problem on landing is your not using the rudder properly if at all if it veres to one side or goes ''bonkers'' as you say. The Stuka is a very easy forgiving plane, but it still is a warbird and needs to be flown like one which includes getting on the rudder. I'm sure with practice you to will master it. '' - Stuka Barry

Stuka Barry, I just measured 4 degrees toe-in on each wheel. Is this excessive, and if so, how can I remove some of it without removing the gear from the wing frame ? I took this Stuka in a trade, and don't know how it was treated previously. Or, should I just concentrate more on steering it with the rudder ? Again ..... It taxi's straight, and takes off straight .

Ed
If you can take some out, it might help, but those wire gear are heat treated and really are hard to bend. I would recommend removing them before attempting to bend. I wish you were closer, I'd like to see first hand your landing troubles. I dont recall any pilot having trouble landing a Ziroli Stuka. Give the rudder a try and see how it goes, remember opposite rudder to the direction its going.

STUKA BARRY is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.