jstanton

My Feedback: (14)

Jason & John,

I was nice to see both of you are planning of building this nice ESM FW-190D. I too would have been building this plane but my good friend Paul and I as you know Jason are starting to build the Dave Platt FW-190 A8. I will be watching this thread and seeing how your builds go. I am really interest in seeing how Jason does his cowl flaps. Keep it going guys and John I'll be talking to Paul about your CMP Zero cowl today.

Jim

kahloq

Has anyone figured out how to put toe-in using the Sierra Giant gear? My question revolves around attempting to swivel the oleo strut some in the gear base due to the downlock, Its it possible?
Ive got two sets of these gear, one in the ESM D9 and the other in a Vantex D9. In the ESM's case, I modified the mounting rails in the wing to provide toe-in, but ended up weakening the forward edge of the wing in the process. Even after trying to reinforce that, after a few bouncy landings( trying to find the best landing style for this plane), one of the gear went through the top of the wing.
After fixing that, well, it was now weak somewhat to start with once that happened.....and a new wing was required which I have.

I would rather try to twist the oleo a bit to get the toe-in then modify the rails again....but will if that's the only way and will obviously double reinforce the internal wing area.

On the Vantex, the gear was a drop in fit.....but it also ended up with toe-out using Sierra 190 gear. In this case, it wasn't possible to modify the gear rails as the wheel wells where part of the fiberglass fuse(plug in wings).....changing the gear rails would have made it impossible to get the wheels to retract. In this instance, I added a gyro on the rudder/tail wheel to calm the plane down on the ground as toe-out doesn't make for a very straight take off even with wide stance gear.

Anyone figured out how to change the axle/oleo angle on the sierra gear to overcome this?

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

Maybe remove the stock axel and replace it with ones that have a slight bend in them? I have not looked to see if the strut can be rotated to create toe in. In the many discussions about toe in that I have seen in this site, some claim that toe out works just as well. May be a non issue, unless you have had problems with it configured this way.

glazier808

My Feedback: (1)

I'm sorry to say but Sierra told me that there is no way to adjust the toe in or two out on the struts of the 190 gear once they're installed. (you can rotate the strut on their P 47 and 109 gear and I'm sure on others)

I was unofficially told that the only option is to put the strut in a vice and use a long pipe on the axel to adjust the angle ever so slightly.

Casey

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

Would that void the warranty?! lol

It seems the best option is for the mounts to be positioned properly from the outset. That does not seem to be possible in this instance though.

kahloq

That might work...ie using the pipe to bend the axle somewhat....or a combination of VG's suggestion using a NON sierra axle of same diameter as the stock axle and bend THAT one....so as to not void the warranty.

Regarding the toe-out.....I never tried taxiing with the toe-out on the ESM plane since I had to modify the retract rails to fit the gear anyhow....so I initially angled the gear mount to provide toe-in. That plane took off straight as an arrow, but in my opinion, lessened the resilience of the wings structure at the forward/edge. No matter what I do with the new wing, it will be reinforced to the nth degree as much as I can.

The vantex D9 on the other hand....same gear with the toe-out due to the gear not being able to be adjusted, was a nightmare to keep straight and almost as bad as an me-109. That is why I put a gyro on that plane's rudder/tailwheel. It helped a good deal. Had I used say ESM electric D9 gear and been able to twist the strut to give toe-in, Im sure it would have tracked just fine without a gyro.
Maybe its just me, but ive never had good results from a setup that has had toe-out and Im always fighting it. The opposite is the case(for me) with toe-in regardless of what plane it is.

kahloq

Maybe a combo.....bend the axles a tad AND use a gyro to compensate if there's still any toe-out. I also put a gyro on the H9 ME-109 and it behaves a LOT better, but ive set it up on rate mode.....so I still need to input rudder myself......the gyro only prevents drastic and quick movements to avoid ground loops as much as possible.

ticketec

My Feedback: (2)

Throw that Squadron signal book as far away as you can! They were ok reference books in the 70's and 80's, but have been totally overshadowed by the likes of AJ Press or Kargero. FAR more accurate and detailed 3-views, and far better pictures and information. Once you look at one, you'll understand where I'm coming from. I have all 4 volumes from Kagero that cover all version of the Fw-190 , and TA-152's and they are great!

Thanks

dave

Dowmer

My Feedback: (1)

Let's not forget Crandall's 2 vols.

Jason

corsair183

My Feedback: (6)

Ticketec,

What do you think of Crandall? I have his Augsburg Eagles book.

JLZ

deadstick79

Hey All,
I've been reading every post on this thread and just hit page 40!
I knew I wanted this plane since page 1... I just jumped to this page to see if there were guys here that were here in the beginning!
Bravo!
Back to page 40 and see y'all soon! Out
Dan

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

Having seen this plane fly first hand, and helping to finish one, I have 2 recommendations. Reinforce the landing gear area. It seems to be somewhat weak. Second, find a book called "Stick and Rudder". Read all you can in this book about landing. As easy as the FW 190 is to land, it seems many have problems with them. Understanding the stall is important, and with a relatively light warbird such as this, it is important to truly understand how to land, to help minimize the damage that can be caused to the landing gear and mounts. Mainly because of bounced landings relating to improperly stalled wings.

Dowmer

My Feedback: (1)

VG.....true, true

jason

ticketec

My Feedback: (2)

One word...... Amazing!!!

ticketec

My Feedback: (2)

Still here, and still flying the ar$e of my Dora!!!

VG, I haven't reinforced my landing gear area at all other than a little extra epoxy on the areas that were a little short. Was trying to work it out with my flying buddy the other day but we guessed that my dora has at least 50 flights on it now. Never had a problem with the landing gear area other than when she dead sticked short of the runway and ended up on the long grass. can blame the model for that one :O

To be honest though, I do normally grease all my landing with her, but that as you stated comes down to technique... I never try 3 point her in. does not like it at all. I "fly" mine on and will chop the 3 or so clicks of throttle I carry as soon as I'm ready for her to settle onto the runway so only 1-3" off the runway. Just as per fullsize warbirds landing practices.

I've watched heaps of warbird videos on you tube etc, and studied them in real life as well (the Duxford videos on you tube are the best) and they all carry a bit of power until they are ready to it to settle. I modified my warbird flying to match that a long time ago and have had very little problems since once you get used to the particular models habits. I did earn my keep on the last outing with her when I had a good 15kts crosswind about 30 degrees off centerline. work that rudder!!!

Thanks

dave

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

Taildragger aircraft by design are meant to be 3 point landed. When the tail is in the down position, this is where the wings angle of attack needs to be to stall properly and not bounce. On full scale, the landing gear length is even a consideration here. While wheel landing may be working, 3 point landings are preffered for tail draggers to achieve proper stall and avoid bounce. Of course, all other factors need to be in place. Correct amount of flap, power, and amount of airspeed during the manuever. It has been my observation that there is too much speed generally carried into the final approach. It would seem many are scared to slow their models down too much. That is why it is important to do stall tests at altitude to get a feel for what this speed is. Again, something else I do not see many modelers doing.

deadstick79

I have a great advantage in the fact that where I fly there is no one around and I can make really really long finals from two directions.
This is probably a mortal sin but, I will use a fixed gear for the tail since I only have 6 channels. Plus I'm going electric so saving on tail weight is a must! Any ideas on what unit would be the best?
Thanks,
Dan

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

I would not worry about that too much as the German's played hell trying to get those retractable tail gear to function anyway. Many of them did not. You can use a typical trainer nose gear hardware set for a tail wheel assembly. Then fabricate your strut from music wire. This of course depending on your budget. Shinden Machine or Century jet may have something that would work if you want to get fancy.

ticketec

My Feedback: (2)

I totally agree with you re: setup of the aircraft for approach, but of the 250+ flying full sized Mustangs, there is only 1 pilot in the world who 3 points it in.. A very large proportion of all warbirds full size are flown on. Fw-190, Mustangs, P-47's, Bf-109's etc, all are flown on. there are some that do 3 point, but they tend to be the minority. and don't forget that they have IAS, and stall warning...

Practically every flight I do with the Dora I deploy full flaps and do a slow flyby, And have stalled her out plenty of times to get a feel for where she is about to stop flying, but have found that it is extremely difficult to get smooth consistent landings every time, and not have her bounce quite nastily. I agree that too many pilots carry way too much speed on approach, but that is as you say, and unfamiliarity with their aircraft's slow flying characteristics.. and they've probably been burnt before too


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1TMYkZcb70 Fw-190 landing at 3:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4RBBrDsPgg Mustang landing at 2:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nj77mJlzrc Bf-109 landing at 2:10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XuMylC7gSc Mustang 3 pointing in.....

But for this model, the proof is in the pudding. my gear rails are fine, and she has a whole heap of flights on her now..

Thanks

dave

fred985

now you woke up the anti electric moroniks !!!!!

kahloq

Agreed with Ticket. This plane is better landed on the mains. Ive got several 190s....ESM D9, vantex D9, ESM 70" 190 A8 all with scale length gear. The first two landings with the ESM D9, I attempted the 3 point approach as "suggested", but resulted in severe bounces. Both at 1/2 flaps. The bouncing caused some structural damage in one wings retract rails.
3rd flight (after fix) was full flaps and on the mains and was a perfect landing. 4th was the same....except it ran off the edge of the runway(my fault). due to the prior stress on the wing, regardless of being patched up) the rails gave way. Ive got a new wing for it instead of trying to patch up the old one.
My vantex exhibited much better behavior landing on the mains and the smaller 70" just greases in on a main wheel landing. I would never attempt to 3 point that plane.
My Graupner fw-190 D9 does well on main wheel landings, however, the gear strut length is a little too short for scale.

This video clearly shows what happens when a full scale fw-190 is 3 point landed. NOT good!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRCneGd3VrQ

This is a clear indicator that a full scale does best landing on the mains:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ilDVl-eyNg

This guy tries to 3 point a full scale. Note the tail wheel bounce back up on touch down. He still does a good job managing it though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhAgU-GUc1Q

VG has a lot of experience flying various warbirds....however...his only flying fw-190D9 is a PICA kit which does NOT have scale length landing gear. Not even close to the correct length. It would be best to refrain from giving absolute advice on how to land an fw-190 unless a person actually has experience landing such a plane with CORRECT scale length gear. They are very long and act like pogo sticks when landed in a 3 point stance. See vids below. VG may change his stance once he gets a chance to finish and fly/land his Holman D9 or his Anderson ta-152. Both will have scale length oleo struts. Its a very different animal compared to a nice looking pica with unscale short gear. Its not that difficult to 3 point a plane when the attack angle of the wing isn't that far out of horizontal with short strut gear.

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

And what exactly is the scale length for a 1/5th scale 190 d9? Then what is the exact length of the Sierra retracts?

The length of the struts have nothing to do with this issue anyway. It is aerodynamic, not mechanical. Again I refer back to the Book "Stick and rudder" It explains what is going on exactly.

Kahloq, your failed landing attempts were because of too much speed and energy. I witnessed both. An improperly stalled wing caused the bouncing.

Please refrain from talking about my experience in these forums in the future. You really have no idea what it really is anyway.

glazier808

My Feedback: (1)

The first video of the full scale 3 point landing, looked exactly like the one that I did with my Holman FW 190A8. (It took out the wing)

I still feel like I didn't carry enough speed into it. I should've just landed on the mains. My Sierra gear held up great! But the forces of the bounce were not easy on the wing!


Casey

Ramstein44

My Feedback: (157)

Ouch.,..

glazier808

My Feedback: (1)

Ya, I had put 4 flights on her earlier that day. I was amazed at how slow and gentle the stall was, so I decided to try and 3 point it and she came in nice but hopped two or three times(if not more). The last one had the slightest nose down attitude to it, and the plane had yawed to the right causing the left gear to hit rather hard and at a weird angle. The result was a rather clean break of the wing as you can see.

Oh oh and the tail did pop back up(before the break) so I was not too slow as to stall.

Casey