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Foil question

Old 11-25-2011, 12:22 PM
  #1  
panhndl
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Default Foil question

I've been playing with some different foils to practice for my build this winter, and I have a question. I've used 3 different foils and all have displayed a tendency to easily dent even after sitting over night. Does the adhesive on the foil eventually harden a bit and become less prone to scuffs, hangar rash, etc. ?

Thanks
Old 11-25-2011, 12:56 PM
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Greg Wright
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Default RE: Foil question

Hi panhndl,

The answer to your question would be no the adhesive does not hard at all. I beleive what makes it a little less prone to scratches and dents is the wet sanding you do to remove the orange peel affect which in turn workhardens the aluminium to a point that it is not quite as soft as it is right off the roll. I have just completed a BVM F-100 with flight metal that was all wet sanded with 320-400 600 and some places with 2500 grit wet/dry sand paper and then polished and that shows more of the scratches than if it was just a weathered look to it.
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Old 11-25-2011, 01:28 PM
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Ron101
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Default RE: Foil question

Did you glass the surface first? or a bare balsa surface?
bare balsa won't work
Old 11-25-2011, 06:38 PM
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panhndl
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Default RE: Foil question

Sorry, I should have explained a little better.

I ordered my Comp ARF P-51 today and have been playing with foil on a plastic model to figure out a few things.

1.  Which foil do I like the best?  Aeroscale foil, Flite Metal, Foil from Solo Props or the foil tape I found at the local hobby store.

2.  I wanted to practice a little bit before my plane arrives and I have to go LIVE! 

3.  Learn about the entire process from applying, sanding, buffing, polish, weathering, painting, etc. 

Right now, I'm prefering the Flite metal, then solo's foil, third Aerofoil, and last the hardware foil.  Flite metal seems to be the easiest to apply.  it also seems to have more stretch to it.  Both solo's foil and aerofoil benefit from a little windex on the surface of the model to aid in getting the foil down nicely.  Solofoil seems to stretch a bit more than the aerofoil.  the hardware foil doesn't like the windex treatment and it doesn't stretch at all that i can tell.  it also seems to be thicker than any of them.  I might use the thicker stuff where boo boo's are more likely to happen.  I also tested some sanding on the various foils tonight and had very little success.  Wet sanding with 320, 400, or 600 quickly sanded through the metal and into the plastic.  I don't know if I was doing something wrong or what.  I then switched to 3200, 4000, 6000, 8000, 10,000, and 12,000.  8000 and then 10,000 produced the best results and I didnt sand through the metal at all. 

a.  Do you just dip the sand paper into the water and sand with it?
b.  Is there an agent like windex to put on the model prior to putting flite metal on? 
c.  Can someone take a picture of "orange peel" so i can see what it looks like?  I think I'm seeing it, but I'm not entirely sure.  Also, the surface of the plastic model may not produce the effect like a fiberglass model. 

Everything I've found out have been over a 2 day period.  It is by no means extensive, and it's more like my initial reactions.  Keep in mind this is a 1:35 scale plastic model of a p-51.  The rivets are absoluely tiny and the panel lines are exagerated and deep.  I'm not sure how this will translate to the larger Comp-ARF P-51 that is about 1:4.5 scale.  I covered different, similarly shaped and sized pieces tonight with the 4 various foils and will sand them tomorrow.  Hopefully I'll have had some time to do some research on wet sanding, heh.

Old 11-26-2011, 01:17 PM
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panhndl
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Default RE: Foil question

Ok, took some pictures of what I've done so far. Not the best pictures, but hopefully good enough.

First is Aerofoil, 2nd is Flite metal, 3rd is the hardware tape, 4th is the solo foil. Is the "orange peel" the rippled effect all the foils appear to have on the surface, except the flite metal?
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Old 11-26-2011, 01:23 PM
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panhndl
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Default RE: Foil question

Here a4 pics with the sanding going through the foil at different spots. Mostly the rivets. And on none of them am I through what I think is the orange peel.

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Old 11-26-2011, 02:31 PM
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panhndl
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Default RE: Foil question

Ok, did some more sanding.  I can't lose the orange peel without sanding through the rivets.  is this normal?  On bigger planes, do you just sand around most of the rivets so you don't go too far?  I'm using 3200-4000 grit sand paper and still going through.  On the finer grit stuff, i can sand for a long time, but I don't really ever get rid of the orange peel.

Somebody explain what i'm doing wrong. [:@]
Old 11-26-2011, 03:22 PM
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vertical grimmace
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Default RE: Foil question

It seems to me, you need to figure out how to apply it without getting the orange peel and wrinkles in the first place. Sanding would not seem to take that out. Covering a small plastic model is probably really tough. I have not used the stuff myself, but I have heard it is best to work from the center out of your workpiece
Old 11-26-2011, 04:02 PM
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Greg Wright
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Default RE: Foil question

You will get totally different results on a much larger subject than you will trying to work on such a small piece of plastic. It is a time consuming process to do all the sanding but using 3200 and 4000 grit isn't gonna cut it on your CARF P-51 you'll be sanding one spot for days. As i mentioned in my last post you will want to use 320 & 400 grit wet/dry paper i also forgot to mention that you need to add some dawn dishwashing soap to the water it help to lubricate the paper to make it glide over the surface better. Just take your time and make sure you wipe the black stuff off as you are working to inspect what you have sanded. There is absolutely no way to avoid the orange peel affect except to use your finger as your primary tool to do the anicial rubbing of the panel and then you what to use a artist blunt for the final burnishing.
Old 11-26-2011, 07:59 PM
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k_sonn
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Default RE: Foil question

Take a look at the video by Joe Grice. He is the master of using Flite Metal.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgKNp72u5j8[/youtube]

Kirk
Old 11-26-2011, 09:18 PM
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SVX
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Default RE: Foil question

Okay so that was a great video but now I have questions. He sanded all the panels with 320 grit. Is that finished? Or does he work back through several grits to make it resemble aluminum? Also My Flite Metal is 6-7 years old, too old perhaps?

Dust
Old 11-27-2011, 07:46 AM
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Greg Wright
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Default RE: Foil question

SVX, no that is not the finished product that is just the begining of a long process of sanding then comes the use of 400 & 600 grit paper along with some use of a 3M scotch brite pad for some area's and so on. Your question towards your 6 or 7 year old FM is not that it is to old but like myself i think it is like the old stuff i had and it was much thinner material back then and alot harder to work with.
Old 11-27-2011, 09:03 AM
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panhndl
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Default RE: Foil question



Greg- thanks for the pointers.  I have 320, 400, and 600 wet/dry sand paper.  I didn't know about the dish soap but it makes sense to add a wetting agent.  I'll give that a try when I find something large enough to practice on.  I was just using the 3200-12000 sandpaper because i rubbed holes in the foil so quickly when using the 320.  I'll find something relatively flat and smooth to apply the foil to and see how that goes for sanding. 

k sonn- thanks for the video.  I should have done a search for flite metal on youtube.

Old 11-27-2011, 12:07 PM
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Default RE: Foil question

As Greg mentioned, 320 is just a start. It removed the orange peel.

The first two planes I covered in Flite Metal I used the scotch brite pads only. They can be seen on the Flite Metal web site:
http://www.scaleaero.com/kirk_sonniers_p47.htm

The next plane I covered in Flite Metal was after Iread an article in RCJI by Joe Grice were he described wet sanding with 320 and them 400. It was wet sanded with 320 and then 400. That plane can also be seen on the Flite Metal web site:
http://www.scaleaero.com/k_sonnier_p51c.htm

I've also attached a scan of Joe's article from RCJI.

KIrk
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Old 12-06-2011, 04:19 PM
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wayne d
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Default RE: Foil question

I should also mention that 000 steel wool works well for sanding.
Old 12-06-2011, 04:31 PM
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wayne d
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Default RE: Foil question

In the video he talks about using 320 sandpaper. Thats not on the foil itself. Thats for the surface prep prior to applying the foil.
Old 12-07-2011, 06:02 AM
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Greg Wright
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Default RE: Foil question

wayne d, You are wrong. You do start with 320 sandpaper on the flite-metal. Go back up to K sonn's post and read the article that joe did in rcji and it clearly states the use of 320 as the first sanding process in phase one of the article.
Old 12-07-2011, 06:26 AM
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Default RE: Foil question

Greg,
Yes, if you read the article it would look as though to match the two panels in a butt joint that would be one way of doing it. Just not my method. I use tape to outline the panel and then very carefully cut the panel I'm putting down to match that. No sanding needed.
As far as sanding the panels afterwards to give different effects, steel wool is all I use.
If you ask 10 different folks how they do something..........you will get 9 1/2 different answers.

Here is a couple of shots of my wing on a meister P-47.
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Old 09-22-2014, 04:57 PM
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Sanding off the airframe with a quarter page electric felt padded sander works very well to quicdckly knock
the surface down. Wetting the felt pad will make it swell and provide a uniform rear surface contact of the
320/400/600/800 progression.

Using the sanding process messy slurrey will rapidly provide the all important patina ..you want to work back
into the surface. The most important thing early on is to match the surface images in your documentation.
After matching it set it aside as reference to replicate on the next.

You do not press down hard on the sander, let it "float" across the surface to evenly distribute the knock-
down. The entire process typically takes less than five minutes per grit...progressing until it is smooth and
the tint matches docs. If its a mirror then a couple of minutes with high pumis metal polish then when done
wipe clean and apply to panel taped off on your project.

Yes, start with 320 then pay attention as the use of the quarter sheet sander with water as you would mist
surface doing it by hand. Once slurry begins do not wipe it off, simply work it back into the surface to recon-
situte the surface.

Last edited by FliteMetal; 09-25-2014 at 10:50 AM.
Old 09-22-2014, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by vertical grimmace
It seems to me, you need to figure out how to apply it without getting the orange
peel and wrinkles in the first place. Sanding would not seem to take that out. Covering a small plastic model is probably
really tough. I have not used the stuff myself, but I have heard it is best to work from the center out of your workpiece

Grimmace:

The adhesive application process is what will cause fish eye stippling, or orange peel. Sanding with 320 either by hand
or with a quarter page occilating felt faced sander prior to application to the model surface will knock the aluminum down
and reconstitute its surface texture, and patina. The more you sand the more the tint will change and provides a full range
of documentation matching bluish gray tints.

A progression of 320 to 400 to 600 is usually enough to provide a decent surface. Matching doumentation will lead you to
higher grit...but going above 1000 is not necessary. When polished surfaces are appropriate use a high pumise content
metal polish applied per mfg instructions by hand ususally with a damp soft cloth.

Last edited by FliteMetal; 09-25-2014 at 08:56 AM.
Old 09-24-2014, 08:48 PM
  #21  
Chris Nicastro
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Is there another adhesive that can be applied by spray or roll/brush that will flow and smooth out to reduce the texture it creates thru the foil?
Old 09-25-2014, 09:18 AM
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Chris,

There are 100's of models covered with Flite-Metal. These are covered simply and easily when customers follow our simple
easy to understand instructions to follow in an exceptionally easy to achieve process. This process, like that of "learning" to
paint a "good scale finish" is an acquired skill.

The time to acquire the skill in this case is very short. We provide the easiest, least expensive to achieve natural aluminum
finish. Our customers range from 15 to 90 something in age. Of all our customers we have only had two who found it more
than their personal skill set could manage. Yes, two (2) in sixteen years! I realize there are in all probability more, but none
presenting themselves to me saying they could not and asked for their money back...

In both cases, I told them when they sent their Flite-Metal to my designated individual, I would provide them a partial refund,
sans shipping cost plus a further amount equal to the wasted aluminum. This was of course my own decision...using it very
constructively Vs. the pending negative shadow being cast on my product.


Kirk Sonnier's P-51C

The remaining Flite-Metal was requested to be sent to an experienced modeler (Kirk Sonnier) who's accomplishments
with our products was excellent by virtue of their skill set to build their model to a high standard, apply and finish Flite-
Metal to their models which were then placed into public view/review at a scale contest or in public venues focused on
scale modeling like RCU.

So you see there is virtually no real negative effect of the adhesive coating on our product. Following our recommended
process of finishing your Flite-Metal prior to its being applied to the surface of the model you will remove all issues related
to the adhesive, if it even if there are any issues on Flite-Metal in someone's possession.

If you want to take the time to prepare the surface of a model to receive flash particals of chrome or aluminum you trade
the stippling for the time and expense of substrate, surface, and flashing a model. However, the otherwise skillset witness
of applying it yourself is lost as are the opportunities to compete wiith the model. Not to speak negatively of the flashing
process or those who perform these services for modeler. Thier products are fabulous when preparations follow explicit
preparation and application protocol.



Then on the other end of the spectrum we have those who apply Flite-Metal directly to their award winning models without
doing any sanding of the Flite-Metal surface. Such is the case for Rod Snyder of Johnson City, TN. Rod is one of the few
fortunate individuals who qualified to represent the United States at the World Jet Meet championship. Rod's BVM F100 is
a replication of a USAF Thunderbird demonstration team aicraft.

Rod's fuselage was prepared as if to be painted, then he proceded to apply Flite-Metal following our recommended way of
doing so. Because Rod deemed the post applied surface matched his documentation perfectly, he chose to leave F-100's
Flite-Metal covered surface aloneThe only surface detailing is in the rear after burner.

Rod sanded each panel 90 degrees out to each adjacent panel the sprayed vertical tinted color lines with Bob Violett's
"Hot Section Paint". The paint does an excellent job replicating the effects of high temperatures in the titanium skinned
section of the fuselage. Customers typically tint this area with a grayish clear coat to make it closely match titanium.

Oh, I almost forgot to disclose how Rod placed at the World Jet Meet. Rod enjoys the reward of 8th place for his effort
to apply Flite-Metal to his BVM F-100 and doing virtually nothing to alter the surface appearance of his entry.
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Last edited by FliteMetal; 09-25-2014 at 10:11 AM.
Old 09-25-2014, 10:05 AM
  #23  
Chris Nicastro
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I'm well aware there are hundreds of models covered in FM. That's not my concern. I have achieved very nice metal finishes by paint on a variety of models from special effects practical models to RC jets. I have never used your product or any like it before. My question about the inherent texture associated with the process and application of FM is out of curiosity for a solution to the perceived problem, nothing more. If nothing else, for sake of argument, this could be a another positive feature/benefit for your product if this minor issue could be resolved.
Rather than saying to the potential customer "you just get used to it", basically, it would be better to express interest in further developing the product and ease of use which in turn would open the door to otherwise intimidated customers. Just because this product has been around for years doesn't mean it has reached its end of development, that's fine however if the company has decided that is so, someone else will just figure it out.
Old 09-25-2014, 10:22 AM
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We have been anything but static across the last 16 years. The issue is the result of the flow coat process at the converter.
The original specification for the baseline product controls the methods utilized in its conversion from uncoated to coated
with the adhesive.

You imply we are static, not constantly seeking best priactices to deliver superior product. Due to the converter's primary
customer's specification, we are hamstrung with respect to changing the adhesive application methodology. The intended
use for the primary customer is not effected one way or the other. Expense of proper application methology is exponential.

Occassional, aka inconsistant environmental, physical, and producer best practices contribute to this issue. All of which are
out of our scope of influence. For sixteen years I have sought a parity but have yet to identify one. Weighed against percent
of negative feedback, majority of our customers accept our recommendation to offset this issue as reasonable.

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/FliteM...n/FMApSeqA.gif

Last edited by FliteMetal; 09-25-2014 at 10:40 AM.
Old 09-25-2014, 10:44 AM
  #25  
FliteMetal
 
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We have been anything but static across the last 16 years. The issue is the result of the flow coat process at the converter.
The original specification for the baseline product controls the methods utilized in its conversion from uncoated to coated
with the adhesive.

You imply we are static and do not constantly seek the best possible product we can deliver. Due to the primary customer's
specification, we are hamstrung with respect to changing the adhesive application methodology. The intended use for the
primary is not effected by 100% elimination. Especially when this is an occassional aka inconsistant issue dependant on the
environmental~physical~producer best practices conformity.

Though our product is viewed on high end skill set endowed modeler's aircraft, you must remember its target market is the
sport modeler who evolves through their modeling experiences to reach that level of building and finishing skill. This while
high schools no longer offer wood shop. This is a minimum starting point for the majority of scale modelers. Their interest
in working with wood and their hands has today evolved to learning CAD/CAM without appreciation for the enjoyment of a
wood shop class.

By far, the largest number of modelers use Flite-Metal in its off the roll state with little to no pre-application finishing. I have
tested the patience of these individuals carefully as they rarely have patience to tolerate details of any degree... Its not
fault, lets blame it on the short sighted occupational view point of councilers, department heads and course sylibus.

Last edited by FliteMetal; 09-25-2014 at 11:56 AM.

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