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ZIROLI 98" P-51B MUSTANG

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ZIROLI 98" P-51B MUSTANG

Old 07-23-2013, 06:38 PM
  #26  
samparfitt
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

wings (cont)

3-piece wing conversion (cont)

Put the HS-645's in their general location: two for right side flaps (since they will be split for inner and outer wing) and one for the aileron.

Ailerons:
Hinge hardpoints from balsa block was cut and glued for the ailerons: 4 dubro heavy duty nylon hinges will be used. The pins will be replaced with a long wire for easy removal. The remaining stringers around the wing's TE and flaps/ailerons were glued in.

Flaps:
5 robart large pin hinges will be used for each side: 2 on the inner flap and 3 on the outer flap. I'm anal on parts being functionally removable so robart's pocket hinges with set screws will also be used on the flaps. New control horns had to be cut for the flaps since there are now two on each side and they are in different locations, ie also different sizes. Aircraft ply was used and they were drilled/tapped for 4/40 screws for dubros heavy duty ball links. All servos will be oriented the same way and one 4 way Y will probably be used.
The green pad is nice to cut objects on as it's self sealing.

stab/elevators:
The elevators top sheeting was cut to size, 1/64" thick X 3/8" wide ply CA'ed to the TE and then glued to the ribs.
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:48 PM
  #27  
samparfitt
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

stab/elevator (cont)

Not much done today as I had a ton of yard work to do.
Also, not too summer like, down into the upper 50's over night and only into the upper 70's during the day: can't imagine the temp up there in Minnesota!

Glued in the balsa blocks hard points for the hinges (will be 4 per elevator) and boxed in the counter weight area on the stab.

Heard the UPS truck rumble down the street: got my wing tubes.
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Old 07-25-2013, 07:46 AM
  #28  
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

It's actually cooled off a bit for July. It was in the 90's with humidity to match for a while.

It's interesting to note the performance of our B-25 motors due to the weather. Temp and humidity goes up...rpm goes down just like the fuel funnycar. To bad we don't have the computer the race car have. haha Our radio systems are complicated enough as it is.

We have a P-51 also with a 5.8 motor. I was hoping we could fly it this summer but my son wants some changes to the scale exhaust and cowl.

You are really progressing fast on the P-51 build. I did almost exactly the same mods to the gear mounts as you have done. I used a 1/8 x 1 aluminum bar for the wing joiner however. I secured this with SHCS thru the gun ports and made a special long allen wrench tool to install them. I also made FG molded gear doors and an attempt at scale liner for the inner doors. Part of this was to stiffen the inner doors so they close more evenly. The scale mount of the operating cylinder pulls and pushes on the edge so it bends the doors slightly. Usually leaving the leading edge open a small amount. I even made a locking servo mount but we removed that and stiffened the doors more. They are very light weight. The gear seems to be the weak point in the whole system. I guess it would be better for the gear to fail than to rip it out of the wing but damage to the belly will greater.

One other detail I did after seeing one go in due to the tail separating was to wrap .007 x .500 carbon fiber strips from the top and bottom of the horizontal stab around the fuse up to the wing filit. 4 strips. I used just a small amount of filler to blend these in before final glassing. There is very little filler on the plane before paint. I negletected to take pictures.

I also counter balanced both the ailerons and the elevator. I like your servo placement...I didn't think of that.

What are you planning to use for a motor in this beauty??

The Precision Eagle 5.8 we have is a Sachs based model. Very powerfull. It turns out that the crankshaft taper is smaller than a G-45 by quite a bit. I have had a lot of trouble with the aluminum prop hub coming loose. We are on the 4th one and I think before we fly it I'll make a steel one. I already have cad model designed that is only 1 oz heavier. I just need the exact dimentions for the taper. the keyway will take a special tool also but I think I can make a bushing for this if I can get a broach. Otherwise I'll send it out and have it wire EDM'd.

Keep up the great work.....I'm going out to play senior baseball while you are cutting grass. haha
Old 07-25-2013, 01:58 PM
  #29  
samparfitt
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

Bentwings,
Interesting on tail separation: I've never had a tail separation (except when having sudden stops with earth) in the air. It seems like the owner may have made the tail too light and didn't provide enough strength along the fuse as with using 1/8" thick planking and fiber glassing the fuse, it seems like that would be difficult to break in the air. Also, the past history of the plane is not known, as it could have been in some bad landings, etc. I've seen pilots prank their gear hard and later, fly the plane and land gently and then wonder why the gear broke!
I've got a new brison 5.8 (about 95 cc's) so it should be plenty of power. A backup is a DA-85.
Thanks for the info on the doors.

=============
Wings (cont)

3-piece conversion (cont)

Left outer wing (cont)
Since the wing tubes came in, I setup the left wing and epoxied the bottom main spar and wing tube while the wing was on the plans. I followed the same procedure as on the right wing: lots of weight and then added the rest of the spars, etc.

Right outer wing (cont)
While the left wing was 'cooking', I made hard points for the flaps hinges using soft balsa block. I want the robart pin hinges to be at a 45 degree angle going into the bottom of the flap and wing's TE so I had to cut some multi-faceted pieces of balsa to fit the flap and wing. I first cut some 3/4" wide block and then custom cut each one to fit the hinge location. Being as only the top of the wing is sheeted and the hinges are along the bottom, I had to insure each balsa block is flush with the ribs nearest to it. The wing's TE balsa block had to have the V cut into it to match the wing's TE profile. A paper profile was cut first to save time.
The end ribs for the flaps were also cut and glued in.

Servo trays:
Got my instructions out to make my servo trays from lite ply and 1/4" spruce. Will also be using dubro's dual servo arms and a 4/40 heavy duty ball link was screwed onto the flaps control horn.

Dry fit the two wing halves:
I only epoxied the center dihedral plate along the main spar (and not the front/back ones) just in case I screwed something up and the wings didn't fit properly. I clamped the center of the wings together and all was fine getting 5 1/4" on each end per specs. The front dihedral plate fit perfectly but the back one was off a little so, after separating the wing halves, I only epoxied the front dihedral plate.
After the front dihedral dries, I'll slop a ton of epoxy on the two W-1 ribs and clamp them together. After that dries, then I'll fine tune the back dihedral plate and epoxy it in place.
Epoxying the wings together will insure both ribs W-1 are completely flush with each other. Unlike the right wing with the sheeting, the left wing gets the sheeting after the joining to insure no mis-alignments.
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Old 07-25-2013, 02:08 PM
  #30  
samparfitt
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

continuation from previous post

I didn't get all the pictures posted and the new web sites cutting off editing after only 60 seconds or so, thus here's the rest of the pictures.
I also cut all the hard points for the left wing so save time using the right wings balsa blocks as templates.
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Old 07-25-2013, 02:21 PM
  #31  
samparfitt
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

As for fast building, I'm just an average builder: It's just that I start around 7 AM and end the day around 10 or 11 PM with a lunch/dinner break, usually 5 days a week: I take it easy on the weekends, build until it's time to fly and build after I get home.
Old 07-25-2013, 05:07 PM
  #32  
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

wings (cont)

3-piece conversion (cont)

center wing:
I cut the flap sheeting at rib W-6 so I could remove the outer wing.
Next, I dry fitted the 2 inner wing halves again to insure all fits properly.
Using a popsicle stick, I buttered a thin layer of epoxy on both surfaces of W-1 ribs. Since I had the top of one side sheeted, I had to first slide in the two top joiner spars. I cut a couple holes in the top sheeting (fuse will hide them) so I could clamp along the center of ribs W-1 as well as along all the sides of the ribs.
Last, I dry fitted the two outer wings to insure all is still aligned.
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Old 07-29-2013, 05:38 PM
  #33  
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

Wings (cont)
3-piece conversion (cont)

After sanding an angle to the aircraft plywood, I noticed there are 6 ply's and not 5.

Center wing (cont)
The left half got sheeted via the same methods as on the right half.

My nav/landing lights came in.

Left wing (cont)
The wing was placed on the wash out risers and the top sheeting was added.

Center wing (cont)
The front ply spar that span several ribs was epoxied to the ribs. The back one will be done after the flap hard points are in place.

picked up some hardware at ACE hardware: wing bolts and spacers for the main wheel axles.

The main gear was attached to the G10/ply mount and dry fitted to the wing. There is a small angle out from perpendicular on the mains but acceptable for me (that 1/8" thick spacer can be thinned, if needed).

Main gear:
I finished drilling/tapping the holes for the gear, being aware that the center hole (inboard) needs a shorter screw as to not damage the air cylinder (also do not drill too far when drilling the hole!).

The last back wing incident spacer was epoxied between W1 and W2.

Outer left wing (cont)
The aileron and flap was glued using the measurements from the right wing to get identical moving surfaces.

Two pieces of 1/8" thick lite ply was cut for the aileron control horn hard points

Servo trays:
I needed to make more servo trays so I used old lite ply left over ribs.
I find making the parts in steps insures better accuracy, ie, the servos will fit into the tray.
Being the servo mounting brackets are 1/4" thick, I made tic marks on the side ply and epoxied some 1/4" square spruce to them to make slots. I used a piece of ply to push the side ply and spruce against to insure the ends are all aligned.
The sides are then epoxied to the base.

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Old 07-29-2013, 05:47 PM
  #34  
samparfitt
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

picture continuation from the previous post.

Looks like the web site now won't recongnize a new post so any updates are futile.
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:11 PM
  #35  
samparfitt
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

picture continuation from the previous post.
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:28 PM
  #36  
samparfitt
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

Flap hinges.

Instead of using pin hinges at a 45 degree angle, I've decided to make new low profile hinges from G10. With the flap cut for the removable wings and also using 4 servos, I need a lot of accuracy to get all flaps functioning together. Centering the hinge pin (4/40 screw) exactly on the TE of the wing will give me the accuracy that I need. The hinges will be installed before removing the flaps from the wing to insure everything is exactly aligned. I didn't think I'd get the accuracy needed trying to drill holes at a 45 degree angle with a hand held drill for the pin hinges.
I cut some paper templates to insure my dimensions are correct and cut the needed hinges out of G10. The flap side gets 1/8" thick G10 and the wing side gets two 1/16" thick G10 with 1/8" thick aircraft ply sandwiched between the G10. 4/40 screw and locking nut secures the hinges and will make removing the flaps easy. I had to use my floor model band saw to cut the G10. The dremel cut off wheel also works and the oscillating sander smoothed out the edges.

I made a master copy and made all the others from the master set.
Three at a time were clamped to the master copy to drill the hinge pin hole. Five holes were also drilled in the base to give the epoxy some tooth.

I already installed the balsa block hard points for the flaps so I had to cut slots using a razor saw, xacto blade and an xacto saw blade. The saw blade worked the best to remove the waste after cutting the slot with the razor saw.

This, virtually, took all day to make the hinges and cut the blocks and epoxy all flap hinges in place.
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Old 07-29-2013, 07:51 PM
  #37  
samparfitt
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

Flaps (cont)

Final item for the night:
I cut the rib to separate the flap from the wing (prior to installing the wings, most of the rib was cut save about a 1/4" as aircraft ply is difficult to cut manually). The hinges are performing as expected.
With the flap cut I can now measure the shortest distance with the flaps down and the servo arm horizontally pointing to the rear. It appears to be about 1.5" (plus 1" for connecting to the ball sockets).
Tomorrow, I'll cut four control rods all exactly the same length to get equal movement of all flaps (hopefully!).

(seem to be getting a lot more of those '500' picture posting errors, also)
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Old 07-30-2013, 03:52 AM
  #38  
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

Good work samparfitt. Got a picture of the fuselage sitting on the wing?

Brad
Old 07-30-2013, 07:06 PM
  #39  
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

Brad,
You had to ask how the wing fits the fuse: well it doesn't

=======
wings (cont)

I have an older FG fuse that I probably will use versus building a wood one.
I put the wing in the fuse saddle and the wing is about an 1/8" too long.
Initially, I thought I could just cut the TE as that would be the easiest way: except it would involve cutting part of the flaps and that would look strange in the down position.
Initially, cutting the front seemed like a lot of work but it turned out to be easier and faster than I thought.
Again, I just used the heat gun to soften the epoxy and the front ply plate came right off. I then used some diamond impregnated cut off disks that I bought a few years ago at a flea market (never have too many tools, even if you don't need them right away) and trimmed the front about an 3/16" back. Made a new ply front plate and epoxied it back on.
Now, the wing fits the fuse: and the wing filet: just about perfect.

Alternate flap hinges:
Besides the surface hinges that I made for the P-51, an alternative is what I used on the B-26 that has less hinge showing but the LE of the flap has to have slots cut into it.

Flaps:
I made up the control rods and binded the transmitter to the receiver so I can get accurate servo/flap alignment. I like to make all fine adjustments with the transmitter while it's easy to access all the parts and makes assembly after painting, much easier.
Initially, I was going to just epoxy the servo tray to the top sheeting but I'll epoxy some 1/4" square spruce between two ribs and then screw the tray to the spruce as that will give me flexibility to fine tune the tray, if need be.
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Old 07-31-2013, 02:07 PM
  #40  
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

wings (cont)

Flaps (cont)
Control rods:
To strengthen the control rods, some kwik JB weld was put on the rod and then the brass tubing was slid over it after covering the ends with masking tape to keep them clean. The kwick JB has the same tensile strength as the regular except it dries very fast. It's not good around a lot of heat so I use the regular on my mufflers.

servo trays:
I epoxied some spruce 1/4"X1/2" along the top of the wing for the servo tray base.
Then the control horns were epoxied to the flaps sistered between two soft 1/4" thick balsa pieces.
After the epoxy 'cooked', I aligned/clamped the edges of the flaps in the up position, turned on the transmitter/receiver and screwed the trays to the base.

Alignment problems:
The two flaps were not aligning on the down position. It appears that the culprit is the flap control horns as the ball link is not exactly in the same place relative to the hinge pin.
The only solution I came up with (besides leaving it that way) was to separate the outer flaps on another channel and slave it to the flap channel. I chose Aux 4 which is the toggle just above the gear toggle.
For JR 11X:
I had to make adjustments under 'Flap system' as indicated for getting the desired flap deflection that I wanted. I then had to use MIX 1 and slave aux 4 to aux 1 but the key was the offset as this moved the outer flap (slave) the proper distance.
note: I noticed that the offset can be a negative number so I should be able to eliminate servo 'reversers' when I need them. Of course this will 'eat up' a lot of channels so proper alignment is best while I build.
Both flaps now move exactly the same distance. I'm hoping the results are the same when I start on the right side flaps!
I now see that my selection of slave switches was poor as I may accidentally hit the slave switch when I want to put the gear up or down (as the outer flaps can be activated independently). While reading the manual, I noticed that I can either disable the switch or just switch to a toggle on the right top side.
Some 1/16" thick ply was screwed over the servos to secure them to the trays.
The ball linkage was connected to the closest hole to the center and the rest of the arm was cut off: I thought I could leave the excess arm in place but it restricts the ball linkage movement.

Ailerons:
Where the flaps control linkages are internal, the ailerons are external. I used more spruce to build a base for the servo tray so the top of the servo casing is flush with the top of the ribs as this will give me max deflection of the servo arm and also keep the arm as short as possible, ie maintaining max servo torque.
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Old 07-31-2013, 02:13 PM
  #41  
samparfitt
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

pictures continued from the previous post.
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:24 PM
  #42  
samparfitt
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

wings (cont)

outer wing (cont)

last item for the night was to sheer web the spar, both sides, with 3/32" thick left over balsa sheet scraps.
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Old 08-01-2013, 11:24 AM
  #43  
Billy J
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

I am following your thread my friend/ I behind you installing dihedral braces and deciding on hinge location , I just finished building TF Corsair and thought about putting big Robarts in that location same principal! I also picked up a big FG fuse for this project on RC , I might not put the leading edge section on till upon mounting wing on the saddle like you did // great ideas on hinge points and no your not an average builder ,,, much better that that / a average builder doesn't go out and buy a 100 inch 51 and uses G 10 hinges LOL keep up the good work! whats the diameter of Aluminum pipes m doing one piece wing 98'' with Grand pa much less complicated wonder if my BME 50 classic would fit in the nose with hanging out and pull it decent just to go have fun?
Old 08-01-2013, 12:48 PM
  #44  
samparfitt
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

Thanks Billy,
My wing tubes are 1 1/4" in diameter.
With a one piece wing, you won't need any wing tubes (couldn't use one anyway with the dihedral).
A 50 size engine seems a little small for this size plane: a lot of pilots are happy putting a DA-85 up front on their Ziroli planes.

==============================
Wings (cont)

3-piece conversion (cont)

Alignment pins:
I used some 1/4" diameter aluminum dowel from home depot to make alignment pins and some 1/4" thick ply for support. The inner wing, I drilled the 1/4" size hole but on the outer wings, I made the holes a little larger. I forgot to drill the holes before building the wing so the outer, larger hole allows me to wiggle the pin in the right position to align with the inner wing's hole. The back side hinge hard points were in the way so I had to drill into them to make room for the pin. Some epoxy and those are done.

Straps to hold the wings together.
Just some dubro straps and #4 screws on the bottom of wing along the main spar. A blind nut was epoxied on the inner wing's side. Nothing fancy as forces pulling out on the wings are very low: just something to keep them together.
I lucked out as the mating ribs are just about perfect aligning with themselves.

More sheeting:
Glued up more hard 3/32" thick balsa for sheeting the bottom of the wings.
Presently, I did just the front of the outer wings (main spar to LE) as there is no more work to be done there.
An L bar was useful in clamping along the main spar where localized clamping would be difficult.

Moving surfaces:
I cut off all the flaps and ailerons and sanded their LE's along with the inverted V along the TE of the wing behind the flaps.

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Old 08-01-2013, 12:51 PM
  #45  
samparfitt
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

pictures continued from the previous post:
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Old 08-01-2013, 06:07 PM
  #46  
samparfitt
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Default RE: ZIROLI 98

wings (cont)

3-piece conversion (cont)

Last few things done for the evening.
Sanded the edges flush on the new bottom sheeting and checked that all wings are still aligned.

Ailerons:
Hard points added to the left aileron using scrap balsa blocks.
Trim tabs built up on the ailerons.
With all 'internals' done, the bottom sheeting was glued to the ailerons.

Flaps:
some end filler added using balsa scraps.

check offs:
To not miss any items to be done internally, I write/draw on the inside sheets everything that has to be done (at my age, I'd forget half the stuff!).
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Old 08-14-2013, 03:57 AM
  #47  
bullittrob
 
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can i ask what you are doing for the canopy on the B conversion,.,.,or is there one available?,.,.
thanks rob,
Old 09-05-2013, 12:40 PM
  #48  
samparfitt
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Rob,
I'm cannibalizing a TF canopy.
=============
mmmm: the last time I entered anything, the system was being converted so I just saved the pictures since I was at flyins all last month.

3-piece wing conversion

outer wings:
I boxed in the servos for the flaps and ailerons using 1/4" balsa and using easy measurements from the main spar and TE so I could easily cut them out after sheeting.
Since the wings are sheeted on one side, the plans were cleared of all wax paper and washout risers.
Top sheeting added using carpenters glue and then the hatches were cut out.
Some 3/32" thick ply was used to make new hatches.
The TE of the wing was sheeted.
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Last edited by samparfitt; 09-05-2013 at 12:51 PM.
Old 09-05-2013, 12:48 PM
  #49  
samparfitt
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3-piece wing conversion:
outer wing:
TE of wing as well as LE of aileron sheeted.
Some tape put on the surface of the wing to protect it while sanding the TE.
TE of aileron sanded to a point down to the 1/64" thick ply.
Tops of flaps sheeted.

Center wing:
Heavy duty auto FG cloth put onto the top sheeting around the wheel wells and finishing resin added.
That should just about 99 44/100's guarantee no retracts will be popping through the top sheeting!
Some neo coat (for scuba divers) put onto damaged wheels from pins sticking out on the P-61.
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:57 PM
  #50  
samparfitt
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3-piece wing conversion.
outer wing:
Some cracks filled in on the aileron using easy sand.
Dubro heavy duty nylon hinges for the ailerons.
I cut a slot about 1/16" from the top corner and at about a 45 degree angle to 1) give the hinge some meat to hold onto and 2) get the pin of the hinge at the top surface.
TE of flap also sanded to a point to the sub surface 1/64" thick ply.
LE of flap sheeted.
The leading edge of the flaps have to be cut/sanded so they do not interfere with the TE of the wing.
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