TF FW190 GIANT ARF
11-23-2014, 05:35 PM
#3452
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Wow mirored, those look very clean ! Dont think I could match that craftsmanship , but it answers my question about the sierras , was hoping they would be the out front trunion style like the sierras in my TF p-51 (minor hacking) or my buddies TF p-47 (again out front style)
av8ator , thanks for the reference , lot of info here to surf through
av8ator , thanks for the reference , lot of info here to surf through
Last edited by checksix nc; 11-23-2014 at 05:40 PM. Reason: thumbs
11-24-2014, 09:50 AM
#3453
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And they are awesome.
11-24-2014, 11:39 AM
#3454
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below.
( can't delete it! )
Last edited by Loco3D; 11-24-2014 at 11:43 AM.
11-24-2014, 11:41 AM
#3455
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We've started in on the Motor Box....Installing a Saito 84cc 3cyl 4stroke Radial, and it requires either rounding the corners or moving the entire firewall back....we chose the latte to maintain all corners for strength. Plus we were to replace the cheap Chinese plywood that splits and delaminates with good US 1/2" aircraft grade plywood. Andy laid it all out in AutoCad to maintain all the angles and offsets for thrust, etc. Looks great and will not fit the Carb and Keleo Ring Muffler with no issues.
Im about to follow your steps for cutting the fire wall. What length stand offs did you use ?, 20cm ?
Also how is the prop clearance with the cowl following your steps ? - any pics ?
Thanks dude!
11-26-2014, 07:33 AM
#3457
Senior Member
11-26-2014, 02:07 PM
#3459
Engine for the bird arrived today.
Guess I am the one to break the mould on the Saito radials. Went for the new smaller one..
I think its enough to pull this one @ 25lbs plus it requires absolutely no mods on the firewall..
Guess I am the one to break the mould on the Saito radials. Went for the new smaller one..
I think its enough to pull this one @ 25lbs plus it requires absolutely no mods on the firewall..
11-26-2014, 07:37 PM
#3460
Senior Member
It also has the Ray English licensed intake modification for better intake balance.
11-26-2014, 10:05 PM
#3461
Yes I know. One of the major deciding factors against the FG84.
Plus, the FG60 has a 220mm diameter which will fit most warbirds in the 80inch/50cc size range.
The same cannot be said for the FG84 (only seems to fitt this one and the H9 corsair without cowl hacking).
Anyhow, my next bird will be a TF Zero and this fits perfectly - the other major deciding factor.
If I may put my 0.02 on the table:
- The 84 uses 3x1.80 cylinders to swing a 24x10 @ low-mid 6,000's for a thrust of ~36lbs but has this inlet design issue which makes it underpowered relative to the new FG60 engine @ 5.7HP/3.057kg = 1.86HP/kg. After the Ray mods, this index would climb to more than 2.2HP/kg (or 20%).
- The 60 uses 3x1.20 cylinders to swing a 22x10 @ mid 6,000's for a thrust of ~26lbs but has better power for its weight @ 4.7HP/2.090kg = 2.19HP/kg. Based on the above calculation for the modified FG84, this result is an indication that Ray's improved design changes have been included - plus the bronze bush for the master conrod as a Horizon rep has confirmed somewhere else here in RCU.
- Saito will probably never acknowledge the FG84's design shortcomings as this would entail warantee work on existing engines out there. I think they will just phase it out gradually.
- Instead, I see them releasing a "New!" FG75R3 in the future with 1.50 size cylinders (just to be different to the 84), same diameter and power-to-weight ratio as the FG60, but now able to swing an 23x10 @ mid 6,000s for a thrust of ~30-32lbs.
If you think about it, most 50cc warbirds (and especially the new mass market ARF breed which is light) come out in the 24-32lbs range; the FG75 would pull a heavy bird with 1-1 thrust to weight ratio... Perfect combination - and would fit most cowls. The would then be the definitive 50cc warbird radial..
So, if life were not too short, I would wait a bit longer. For now, the FG60 will do nicely if I manage to keep the 190's weight down to about 24-25lbs.
Plus, the FG60 has a 220mm diameter which will fit most warbirds in the 80inch/50cc size range.
The same cannot be said for the FG84 (only seems to fitt this one and the H9 corsair without cowl hacking).
Anyhow, my next bird will be a TF Zero and this fits perfectly - the other major deciding factor.
If I may put my 0.02 on the table:
- The 84 uses 3x1.80 cylinders to swing a 24x10 @ low-mid 6,000's for a thrust of ~36lbs but has this inlet design issue which makes it underpowered relative to the new FG60 engine @ 5.7HP/3.057kg = 1.86HP/kg. After the Ray mods, this index would climb to more than 2.2HP/kg (or 20%).
- The 60 uses 3x1.20 cylinders to swing a 22x10 @ mid 6,000's for a thrust of ~26lbs but has better power for its weight @ 4.7HP/2.090kg = 2.19HP/kg. Based on the above calculation for the modified FG84, this result is an indication that Ray's improved design changes have been included - plus the bronze bush for the master conrod as a Horizon rep has confirmed somewhere else here in RCU.
- Saito will probably never acknowledge the FG84's design shortcomings as this would entail warantee work on existing engines out there. I think they will just phase it out gradually.
- Instead, I see them releasing a "New!" FG75R3 in the future with 1.50 size cylinders (just to be different to the 84), same diameter and power-to-weight ratio as the FG60, but now able to swing an 23x10 @ mid 6,000s for a thrust of ~30-32lbs.
If you think about it, most 50cc warbirds (and especially the new mass market ARF breed which is light) come out in the 24-32lbs range; the FG75 would pull a heavy bird with 1-1 thrust to weight ratio... Perfect combination - and would fit most cowls. The would then be the definitive 50cc warbird radial..
So, if life were not too short, I would wait a bit longer. For now, the FG60 will do nicely if I manage to keep the 190's weight down to about 24-25lbs.
Last edited by hpergm; 11-27-2014 at 04:28 AM.
11-27-2014, 01:35 AM
#3462
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Yes I know. One of the major deciding factors against the FG84.
Plus, the FG60 has a 220mm diameter which will fit most warbirds in the 80inch/50cc size range.
The same cannot be said for the FG84 (only seems to fitt this one and the H9 corsair without cowl hacking).
Anyhow, my next bird will be a TF Zero and this fits perfectly - the other major deciding factor.
If may put my 0.02 on the table:
- The 84 uses 3x1.80 cylinders to swing a 24x10 @ low-mid 6,000's for a thrust of ~36lbs but has this inlet design issue which makes it underpowered for its weight/capacity @ 5.7HP/3.057kg = 1.86HP/kg (NOT after the Ray mods, of course)
- The 60 uses 3x1.20 cylinders to swing a 22x10 @ mid 6,000's for a thrust of ~26lbs but has better power for its weight @ 4.7HP/2.090kg = 2.19HP/kg - Ray's design included plus bronze bush for the master conrod.
- Saito will probably never acknowledge the FG84's design shortcomings as this would entail warantee work on existing engines out there. I think they will just phase it out gradually.
- Instead, I see them releasing a "New!" FG75R3 in the future with 1.50 size cylinders (just to be different to the 84), same diameter and power-to-weight ratio as the FG60, but now able to swing an 23x10 @ mid 6,000s for a thrust of ~30-32lbs.
If you think about it, most 50cc warbirds (and especially the new mass market ARF breed which is light) come out in the 24-32lbs range; the FG75 would pull a heavy bird with 1-1 thrust to weight ratio... Perfect combination - and would fit most cowls. The would tyhen be the definitive 50cc warbird radial..
So, if life were not too short, I would wait a bit longer. For now, the FG60 will do nicely if I manage to keep the 190's weight down to about 24-25lbs.
Plus, the FG60 has a 220mm diameter which will fit most warbirds in the 80inch/50cc size range.
The same cannot be said for the FG84 (only seems to fitt this one and the H9 corsair without cowl hacking).
Anyhow, my next bird will be a TF Zero and this fits perfectly - the other major deciding factor.
If may put my 0.02 on the table:
- The 84 uses 3x1.80 cylinders to swing a 24x10 @ low-mid 6,000's for a thrust of ~36lbs but has this inlet design issue which makes it underpowered for its weight/capacity @ 5.7HP/3.057kg = 1.86HP/kg (NOT after the Ray mods, of course)
- The 60 uses 3x1.20 cylinders to swing a 22x10 @ mid 6,000's for a thrust of ~26lbs but has better power for its weight @ 4.7HP/2.090kg = 2.19HP/kg - Ray's design included plus bronze bush for the master conrod.
- Saito will probably never acknowledge the FG84's design shortcomings as this would entail warantee work on existing engines out there. I think they will just phase it out gradually.
- Instead, I see them releasing a "New!" FG75R3 in the future with 1.50 size cylinders (just to be different to the 84), same diameter and power-to-weight ratio as the FG60, but now able to swing an 23x10 @ mid 6,000s for a thrust of ~30-32lbs.
If you think about it, most 50cc warbirds (and especially the new mass market ARF breed which is light) come out in the 24-32lbs range; the FG75 would pull a heavy bird with 1-1 thrust to weight ratio... Perfect combination - and would fit most cowls. The would tyhen be the definitive 50cc warbird radial..
So, if life were not too short, I would wait a bit longer. For now, the FG60 will do nicely if I manage to keep the 190's weight down to about 24-25lbs.
I think that saying that this engine is underpowered for its weight/capacity is a bit of a statement... Many people think that when buying this engine you MUST do this modification in order to use it which is not true. It runs perfectly fine out of the box with careful breaking and tunning and this engine doesnt have any major problems.
I agree that things can be done to make it more efficient but Saito is a clever company with quality products and what they have done with this engine is very good, they wouldn't release a product if not fully tested and capable of performing for 55-80cc range.
11-27-2014, 04:21 AM
#3463
I think that saying that this engine is underpowered for its weight/capacity is a bit of a statement... Many people think that when buying this engine you MUST do this modification in order to use it which is not true. It runs perfectly fine out of the box with careful breaking and tunning and this engine doesnt have any major problems.
Also, I am not a proponent of do-or-die for the mods - of course the engine works out of the box.
Just not as well as it should.
If it did, it would produce 7HP (after mods) and then the power/weight ratio would be 7/3.057 = 2.28HP.kg - right where the FG60 is.
It is then up to one's own to decide whether to pay top money for something like that..
11-27-2014, 05:17 AM
#3465
The engine has to be baffled as per FG84. Even more so, because it has a smaller frontal profile (more air gaps between the cylinders and the cowl).
I am also considering putting a fan on.
Looking at commercial solutions, "stealing" and trimming the fan out of this came to mind...
http://www.spalautomotive.com/eng/pr...A22-AP11_C-50A
Has the right dimensions for the TF...
I am also considering putting a fan on.
Looking at commercial solutions, "stealing" and trimming the fan out of this came to mind...
http://www.spalautomotive.com/eng/pr...A22-AP11_C-50A
Has the right dimensions for the TF...
Last edited by hpergm; 11-27-2014 at 08:53 AM.
11-27-2014, 06:39 AM
#3466
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Heres the Video of Charlys Widow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gCDX4_A37Y
11-27-2014, 03:06 PM
#3467
Senior Member
Rather then go with the FG75R3 W/150 bore cylinders I see them increasing the stroke 1.1mm to the FA-180 (1.77/29.1cc actually) stroke for an FG90R3.
The extra .55mm rise & fall of the rod shouldn't cause any major clearance issues that couldn't easily be addressed. A new crank & a case with a .55mm taller deck would do the trick.
Should be capable of 8HP on gas, close to 10HP on methanol.
The extra .55mm rise & fall of the rod shouldn't cause any major clearance issues that couldn't easily be addressed. A new crank & a case with a .55mm taller deck would do the trick.
Should be capable of 8HP on gas, close to 10HP on methanol.
11-27-2014, 10:35 PM
#3468
Rather then go with the FG75R3 W/150 bore cylinders I see them increasing the stroke 1.1mm to the FA-180 (1.77/29.1cc actually) stroke for an FG90R3.
The extra .55mm rise & fall of the rod shouldn't cause any major clearance issues that couldn't easily be addressed. A new crank & a case with a .55mm taller deck would do the trick.
Should be capable of 8HP on gas, close to 10HP on methanol.
The extra .55mm rise & fall of the rod shouldn't cause any major clearance issues that couldn't easily be addressed. A new crank & a case with a .55mm taller deck would do the trick.
Should be capable of 8HP on gas, close to 10HP on methanol.
11-27-2014, 10:43 PM
#3469
+1 on that. I am very happy with my FG-84 now that I have tuned it right. I know of another 7 FG-84's in my vicinity that are all working great without any mods, two of them in a big Twin (P-61 Black Widow ) and there has only been one engine failure because it was run with 1:50 instead of 1:20 as stated in the manual.
Heres the Video of Charlys Widow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gCDX4_A37Y
Heres the Video of Charlys Widow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gCDX4_A37Y
So, there is a FG-75 on its way? That is great news. Should be perfect for the TF 190.
11-28-2014, 07:55 AM
#3472
11-28-2014, 04:36 PM
#3473
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Flew today and was impressed with the added speed that came with no changes... very impressive 3 flights until the motor quit and I had to dead stick it in...
Turns out I blew the plug out of the motor.. the threads in the cylinder are gone... $90 for a new one.. ouch! oh well.. it's black Friday.. haha
Turns out I blew the plug out of the motor.. the threads in the cylinder are gone... $90 for a new one.. ouch! oh well.. it's black Friday.. haha