P-40 Brotherhood (All P-40's Welcome)
03-11-2014, 06:48 PM
#1001
Anytime you are flying at a high angle of attack you are likely to stall a wing tip by applying too much aileron input. It's always best to use rudder as the primary control when taking off...especially with a P-40. There's something about this design that can cause them to really be squirrelly near the stall.
03-11-2014, 07:30 PM
#1002
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Thanks radfordc - I have been trying to keep my fat finger off the ailerons during take off but my biggest problem is being stupid and flying in tight areas. You get the fever to fly and the ground is either snow or mud so we go on a wide road but when you have a problem no room for error.
Keith
Keith
03-12-2014, 05:35 AM
#1004
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This was a gradual turn to the Left and the AOA was no different than my normal take offs. I also don't fly in confined places, the nearest house is a mile away, it is possible maby the wasn't enough speed combined with a cross wind hitting the right side of the plane that did it. As for a gryo I wo had rather not use one.
03-12-2014, 05:57 AM
#1005
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This was a gradual turn to the Left and the AOA was no different than my normal take offs. I also don't fly in confined places, the nearest house is a mile away, it is possible maby the wasn't enough speed combined with a cross wind hitting the right side of the plane that did it. As for a gryo I wo had rather not use one.
One of the continually seen problems in aviation is the incident caused by the pilot not noticing, being aware of, or caring about wind direction reversals. Gusting winds tend to wander rather than be down one compass line. That means they can suddenly (or possibly always were- and that is the hidden danger) be come tail winds and a gusting tail wind at rotation point may you well beyond normal AOA and may cause you to enter a sudden and unexpected stall. In general one of the most used methods to deal with this is higher liftoff/touchdown speeds.
03-12-2014, 07:21 AM
#1006
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That has been my only explanation of what happened, if you can eliminate all causes except of weather it has to be weather. That end of the runway is one of hardest ends to take off because there is a drop off and the wind can roll just past it. Thanks for all of the input ya'll I will try to use rudder next time I have a problem like that. She will fly next weekend it wasn't a bad touch down just would have been fine if there wasn't the railroad tie. But it was better that letting it fly over the pit area on the other runway.
03-12-2014, 12:21 PM
#1007
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Dash - it sounds like you know about stalls - me too but I am afraid I did the same thing. Recently had a tail wheel go crazy - it came loose and I was flying from a tight area - "stupid". She turned hard to the left and not much room before a curb so I had to pull up before I hit a good speed on my Corsair. She went in the same on left wing with full right aileron and only a bit of rudder - STUPID AGAIN!
If you get into that situation should you NOT touch the ailerons and only the rudder?
Keith
If you get into that situation should you NOT touch the ailerons and only the rudder?
Keith
Dash
03-19-2014, 07:26 PM
#1013
A lot of words, but Food for thought,
I would guess all have used ailerons on take-off at times. How many times have you had to correct a low wing condition on lift off, or had to push the nose over green and roll level to obtain airspeed.
While reading this think of the forces acting on the plane with the control inputs.
1. Ailerons control Roll
2. Rudder control Yaw
3. Elevator controls Pitch
If taking-off in a crosswind you should use ailerons. Just as with full scale aircraft, prior to adding power apply full aileron to counter the crosswind. As aircraft speed increases start to release the aileron leaving just enough in to counter the crosswind forces trying to roll your plane. While you are doing this maintain directional control with the rudder. If the plane is attempting to fly green, apply a touch of down elevator to stick the plane on the runway till your desired take-off speed is achieved.
The aileron input will assist in keeping the wing down preventing the crosswind from rolling you.
The rudder input will control direction on the ground, and as the plane gets lighter it may even crab into the wind some, but don’t worry as long as the plane is tracking straight you are okay.
The elevator input will control the pitch, so while on the ground down elevator will place the wing at an angle that creates down pressure on the plane. You will find as you relax the elevator as speed increases the plane will fly off the runway nicely. I caution you to not abruptly release the elevator because this could cause the plane to leap into the air. This takes practice, but once you get the feel you will be able to keep the plane on the ground a bit longer making your take-offs look more scale.
Okay, what about the models that flew for years without ailerons? I am glad you asked.
Let’s consider a right rudder input. What happens?
The plane first starts to yaw to the right causing the left wing to advance into the relative wind, while the right wing retreats, thus causing the left wing to generate more lift than the right wing, which causes a roll to the right while the ailerons are neutral.
Here is a little visual exercise for you:
1. Start by placing your hand in a nose up, left bank position.
So what could happen if the plane comes off green with the left wing down with the nose high and you apply right rudder to correct?
First consider that for the plane to fly off the runway green up elevator is applied, so a left bank with up elevator means you are entering a left turn.
2. Now start a slow left turn with your hand.
Now before the plane will start a right roll because of right rudder input while banked to the left it first must yaw enough to the right beyond centerline direction of flight placing the right wing aft of the relative wind before the left wing can create enough lift to cause a roll to the right. Without lowering the nose what position is the plane in at this point?
3. Now while making your nose high left turn with your hand start rotating your wrist to the right as if right rudder has been applied. Remember the rudder controls yaw, not roll. As you can see you are now nose high (up elevator), banked left, but yawing to the right.
I think you see where this is going. With the nose high, left wing down, you are now skidding the tail to the left which could blank out what air flow you have over the right wing, so if you are slow enough you just stalled your right wing and the left wing rolls you on your back. Ever seen that happen to someone and wondered how it snapped to the right or left on take-off?
I hope this is worded correctly enough so your airplane hand gives you a picture of what is taking place. The key to overcoming this is flying time. I can assure you I will still dumb thumb at the most inopportune time, but at least I can walk to the accident and not be carried from it.
Have fun and lets get to flying.
I would guess all have used ailerons on take-off at times. How many times have you had to correct a low wing condition on lift off, or had to push the nose over green and roll level to obtain airspeed.
While reading this think of the forces acting on the plane with the control inputs.
1. Ailerons control Roll
2. Rudder control Yaw
3. Elevator controls Pitch
If taking-off in a crosswind you should use ailerons. Just as with full scale aircraft, prior to adding power apply full aileron to counter the crosswind. As aircraft speed increases start to release the aileron leaving just enough in to counter the crosswind forces trying to roll your plane. While you are doing this maintain directional control with the rudder. If the plane is attempting to fly green, apply a touch of down elevator to stick the plane on the runway till your desired take-off speed is achieved.
The aileron input will assist in keeping the wing down preventing the crosswind from rolling you.
The rudder input will control direction on the ground, and as the plane gets lighter it may even crab into the wind some, but don’t worry as long as the plane is tracking straight you are okay.
The elevator input will control the pitch, so while on the ground down elevator will place the wing at an angle that creates down pressure on the plane. You will find as you relax the elevator as speed increases the plane will fly off the runway nicely. I caution you to not abruptly release the elevator because this could cause the plane to leap into the air. This takes practice, but once you get the feel you will be able to keep the plane on the ground a bit longer making your take-offs look more scale.
Okay, what about the models that flew for years without ailerons? I am glad you asked.
Let’s consider a right rudder input. What happens?
The plane first starts to yaw to the right causing the left wing to advance into the relative wind, while the right wing retreats, thus causing the left wing to generate more lift than the right wing, which causes a roll to the right while the ailerons are neutral.
Here is a little visual exercise for you:
1. Start by placing your hand in a nose up, left bank position.
So what could happen if the plane comes off green with the left wing down with the nose high and you apply right rudder to correct?
First consider that for the plane to fly off the runway green up elevator is applied, so a left bank with up elevator means you are entering a left turn.
2. Now start a slow left turn with your hand.
Now before the plane will start a right roll because of right rudder input while banked to the left it first must yaw enough to the right beyond centerline direction of flight placing the right wing aft of the relative wind before the left wing can create enough lift to cause a roll to the right. Without lowering the nose what position is the plane in at this point?
3. Now while making your nose high left turn with your hand start rotating your wrist to the right as if right rudder has been applied. Remember the rudder controls yaw, not roll. As you can see you are now nose high (up elevator), banked left, but yawing to the right.
I think you see where this is going. With the nose high, left wing down, you are now skidding the tail to the left which could blank out what air flow you have over the right wing, so if you are slow enough you just stalled your right wing and the left wing rolls you on your back. Ever seen that happen to someone and wondered how it snapped to the right or left on take-off?
I hope this is worded correctly enough so your airplane hand gives you a picture of what is taking place. The key to overcoming this is flying time. I can assure you I will still dumb thumb at the most inopportune time, but at least I can walk to the accident and not be carried from it.
Have fun and lets get to flying.
Last edited by WARBIRDRCER; 03-19-2014 at 07:33 PM.
03-20-2014, 08:41 AM
#1014
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Can I put my hand down now? I have a cramp............ LOL
Great way to explain it - I did just what you just showed.
My friend watching and I both said the same thing - "man that snap rolled in quick!! I wonder what caused that".................
Now we know
thanks
Keith
Great way to explain it - I did just what you just showed.
My friend watching and I both said the same thing - "man that snap rolled in quick!! I wonder what caused that".................
Now we know
thanks
Keith
03-20-2014, 11:07 AM
#1017
Okay, what about the models that flew for years without ailerons? I am glad you asked.
Let’s consider a right rudder input. What happens?
The plane first starts to yaw to the right causing the left wing to advance into the relative wind, while the right wing retreats, thus causing the left wing to generate more lift than the right wing, which causes a roll to the right while the ailerons are neutral.
03-20-2014, 07:58 PM
#1018
Sonny, good to hear from you, it’s been awhile. How are your projects coming along? I am still plugging along to with mine. Seems like everything but planes are on my list lately.Oh, the answer to your teaching question is yes. All aviation related, and what a blast I have with it. Currently I sub at a local aviation maintenance school, but prior to that I conducted FAA safety meetings for pilots and maintenance technicians at my full time job.
P51Nut, do you have your bags packed for your trip home from the desert?
I sure need your help at the hanger, but not with the plane at the moment. I have a new truck, well new to me, but I have to rebuild the engine to use it. Larry’s 99 Z-71 Chevy popped the engine, and I acquired it for a little future plane work. I am looking forward to some formation time with your P-51 or P-47 and my P-40s too.
P51Nut, do you have your bags packed for your trip home from the desert?
I sure need your help at the hanger, but not with the plane at the moment. I have a new truck, well new to me, but I have to rebuild the engine to use it. Larry’s 99 Z-71 Chevy popped the engine, and I acquired it for a little future plane work. I am looking forward to some formation time with your P-51 or P-47 and my P-40s too.
03-23-2014, 06:54 PM
#1024
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I'd love to join the Brotherhood too ! I just received my plans from Ziroli on a 94" P40 Warhawk and just waiting (impatiently) for my full wood kit to arrive from Precision Cuts. I'm going to put in a DA85, Sierra retracts, working canopy, lights and as much detail as my meticulous self can create. This is gonna be a blast !
03-23-2014, 08:14 PM
#1025
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Warbirdrcer - are there any P-40 Brotherhood Patches available or did anyone every get some designed or made?
I would like a patch or sticker / or both if they are out there.
Thanks
I would like a patch or sticker / or both if they are out there.
Thanks