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  1. #51
    rlemaster's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Hi Frets, Thanks.

    I haven't clear coated it yet. I still have a little work to do (some distressing for the decals, etc.).
    I am curious though, what is your opinion on what type of clear coat I should use? I will be using KlassKote
    and I have both satin and glossy. I know I don't want to go with pure glossy, but will the satin be the right
    thing to use for something like this where I'm trying to simulate an aluminum finish? I've seen where some
    people use a mix of the two to adjust the sheen a bit.


    Thanks,
    Russ

  2. #52
    Chris Nicastro's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Use both.
    Use gloss anywhere you are placing a water slide decal. This eliminates the silvering edges you will see on models that have had them applied over flat surfaces. Spot paint a smooth clear spot, apply the decal, then once all of them are applied shoot the semi flat clear coat to seal it all up. Even the dry transfers can benfit from this but sometimes I have found they dont stick to high gloss surfaces so testing is required to prove this. Dry transfers can be funny based on how old they are, the color, and the base material.

    After a battle with dry transfers not working my buddy and I switched gears and laser cut stencils to paint all of the maintainer call outs on a PST F-84. This ultimately looked much better than anything else.
    Like a midget in a urinal I knew I had to stay on my toes...

  3. #53
    rlemaster's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Thanks for the tip Chris. Aside from the decal trick though, you are saying that the overall finish should be semi flat right?
    Also, just out of curiosity, after looking at some more pics of the Doll, it looks like the stencils are smaller than what I
    applied. I got these "cheep" from IFlyTailies.com and they are suppose to be 1/5 scale, but I'm starting to question that.
    Do the decals on the scoop look a little large to you? It just doesn't look like, from the pictures, that they are that large.


    Thanks,
    Russ

  4. #54
    Chris Nicastro's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Assuming your going with a pretty scale rendition Id say yes use semi flat all over once your done. Take a look back on the thread I started of only Mustang specific photos and you will see that Uppupa Epops is not glossy except where they elected to leave the sheet metal natural like on the flaps where its very mirror like. This is not polished its just the finish the sheet metal has when its produced.

    Yes at a glance your graphics look to be larger than needed for the TF Mustang. I have a shot of those same call outs on the real plane, should be posted in my thread. They could be 1/4.5 or something and thats why they are bigger or they made a mistake shipping them to you. They offer 1/4 and 1/5 according to the site right? Or maybe they are just the wrong scale and they dont know it.
    Like a midget in a urinal I knew I had to stay on my toes...

  5. #55
    rlemaster's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Hey Chris,

    In looking at them, some are just plain wrong. I think I'm going to scan them, shrink them a bit, then modify the ones I know are wrong (or create my own).
    Most of them will probably work if I shrink them a bit.

    Thanks,
    Russ

  6. #56
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Any clearcoats prior to the final clear coat should be of the same type paint you used for the underlying coats and then just heavy enough to lay out. It's only to give you an erasable palette to workout your weathering. The KlassKote is heavier than enamel or poly-u clears so it's the last one to go on as your fuelproofer and light scratch preventative.

    Here's a couple pics of the KK satin over color and silver.
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    "The American taxpayer has always been politicaly deceived. It's their Birthright!"
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  7. #57
    rlemaster's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Thanks Frets, that looks about right. I haven't used the satin yet (only the glossy) so I wasn't sure exactly how that would look but it
    looks great to me.

    Thanks,
    Russ

  8. #58
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    As far as size on your decals; They may be a bit on the large size. Here's a couple more of the KK satin on a P-51 outdoors and indoors.
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    "The American taxpayer has always been politicaly deceived. It's their Birthright!"
    Lord Mountjoy, 'The Mouse on the Moon'

  9. #59
    Chris Nicastro's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Like a midget in a urinal I knew I had to stay on my toes...

  10. #60
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    That is such a great thread, Chris. Wish it had been there about three years ago!
    "The American taxpayer has always been politicaly deceived. It's their Birthright!"
    Lord Mountjoy, 'The Mouse on the Moon'

  11. #61
    rlemaster's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    From the pictures, what I have is definitely too large. I'm going to check with the people I bought them from to make sure they didn't send the wrong decals but the correct instruction set (that's the only place the 1/5 scale is written).

    In either case, there are some differences. For example, the picture showing the hatch just above the trailing edge of the wing on the fuselage that says "Coolant Vent" on the pictures you show are worded as "Coolant Filler" on mine. Could that be a difference between British and English wording or something? But if I put both of those on that hatch from these decals, I'd have to make that hatch something like 2 x 2.5 inches. Much larger than it should be from the visuals.

    Frets, is that p-51 a 1/5 scale?

    Thanks,
    Russ

  12. #62
    Chris Nicastro's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Thanks Frets, its another hobby of mine taking close up photos of planes.

    The call out could be the same, you see in war time the crew chiefs took care of these planes in the field. They didnt always go by the book so its possible to find photos to document both being correct for the period. However this particular P-51D was restored to NA factory standards not ETO field photos. I would trust this P-51D as the defacto source for the call outs, personally.
    Like a midget in a urinal I knew I had to stay on my toes...

  13. #63
    frets24's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Russ,

    It's 1:5.6 roughly from the WS and length meas. The nomenclature is a bit large but the 1;6 transfers were impossible to deal with.

    The coolent vents and drains are low and aft, fillers are are high and forward. The panel for the "coolant, filler" (comma=new line) call-out is just behind the prop spinner on the left side and just above the imaginary line through the exhaust stacks. Looking head on it would be at the 1:00-2:00 position. The forward most of the three panels on the top of the cowl panel is "aftercoolant filler, filling instructions, inside". Next is "oil, filling instructions, inside" and last is "hyd, fluid, tank"

    Chris,

    I've seen so much of your work over the years; Pics, planes, models, pics of models......all great
    "The American taxpayer has always been politicaly deceived. It's their Birthright!"
    Lord Mountjoy, 'The Mouse on the Moon'

  14. #64
    rlemaster's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Thanks Frets,

    I did a little math on this. The TF GS p-51 ws is 84.5. By my calculations, assuming a real ws of 37', that means it is basically 1/5.25 in scale.
    That's not a huge difference though. Not nearly like what I'm seeing. I've looked at the decals more and it appears the graphical decals
    (ie: fuel cap, etc.) seem to be pretty close. It looks like it is primarily the text that is too large. I suspect that whoever did these just didn't
    get their font sizing correct. Thankfully that's easy enough to fix. I can print my own decals so I'll just correct where necessary.

    Chris, I see what you mean for the call-outs. I've been looking over some pics of other p-51's and I do see differences that would suggest
    what you are saying. I think, in this case, I've broken the first rule of true model building .... that the idea is to replicate the actual subject
    you are building around. I need to just gather up all of the Big Beautiful Doll pictures I can get and go by those. I have Don's documentation
    pack and the ones in the thread you pointed to along with some others. I think there are enough there to get all the details covered.

    Frets, gotta agree with you about Chris's work. Not to mention the other guys who have piped in on this. I feel like a student in a room
    full of professors.

    Thanks guys,
    Russ

  15. #65
    rlemaster's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Hey guys, just thinking ahead here to when I start the final paint job on the wings and fuse and I'm wondering what type of
    vinyl / masking you would recommend for the paint masking? I have the vinyl I've been using for the rivets, etc. but that stuff
    leaves adhesive residue on like crazy. Obviously I want to use something that won't leave residue. It would be easiest also
    to use something that is clear so I can more easily align it.

    Thanks,
    Russ

  16. #66
    Chris Nicastro's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Thanks guys and this is what the forum is for so I dont mind contributing.

    Yes Russ your right. Basically its called fidelity, find one source and stick with it. In this case since your replicating the general nomenclature that is set by governmant standards and applied by the factory its a safe bet to use a trusted source that is different from your nose art source. That is unless you have proof that the plane your doing and the standard application of the call outs is different then you have to go with that source to be more accurate to the subject plane.

    I explain it as telling a story with your model to give it context. If you figure out when and where the plane has been it makes it easier to detail it, the road map is set in front of you by real history. You dont have to go nuts either, just some info will make a big differrence in your approach to solving these details. Beyond that you can go so far as to figuring out the right color of dust for the region in North Africa where the plane was flown from...who knows, but it can be as detailed as you like.

    Keep it going Im looking forward to your finished project.

    Chris

    P.S. there have been several BBD's replicated after the war and they are different in some details so beware of the source here again. Try to find wartime images and info if possible otherwise Id suggest going with Uppupa Epops for the service graphics and your source for the BBD nose art. Seems like the best compromise and it will produce a good result without too much of a headache. I have more photos of Uppupa Epops if you like.
    Like a midget in a urinal I knew I had to stay on my toes...

  17. #67
    Chris Nicastro's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    ORIGINAL: rlemaster

    Hey guys, just thinking ahead here to when I start the final paint job on the wings and fuse and I'm wondering what type of
    vinyl / masking you would recommend for the paint masking? I have the vinyl I've been using for the rivets, etc. but that stuff
    leaves adhesive residue on like crazy. Obviously I want to use something that won't leave residue. It would be easiest also
    to use something that is clear so I can more easily align it.

    Thanks,
    Russ
    Have you tried Frisket Film for airbrushing? You can find this stuff at art stores in the airbrush department. There is low and high tack as well more clear and opaque films. It cuts very easy and keeps a nice edge on a clean surface. You can also cut it on the model with very little pressure and new #11 blade. I would try that and see if you like it.
    Like a midget in a urinal I knew I had to stay on my toes...

  18. #68

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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    For paint masc use Oracal's - Oramask 810 - gray foil...

    http://www.cutterpros.com/Paint-Mask...k-810-Grey.htm
    Rivets, Screws, Panel lines, Detail & Finish Sets, Paint Masks and other equipment for scale warbirds - www.nsmodelers.rs

  19. #69
    Duplicator41's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Or clear contact paper from Home Depot for $4.00 per roll. Cuts with an Exacto knife or scalpel and leaves no residue.

    Cheers,
    So many planes, so little time

  20. #70
    rlemaster's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Thanks folks, I'm going to try the cheapest option first. Picked up some clear contact paper last night. I'm hoping I can cut it with my cutter.
    If that doesn't work, I'll probably go with the Oracal.

    Chris, I've never worked with Frisket Film. Do you think it could be cut on a cutter machine? I have to say it is so much easier to do that
    than trying to cut out the pattern on the plane.

    I think I'm going to do a quick test and see if I can replicate the decals I have on the scoop, only a bit smaller. If that works on a test
    piece I'll probably remove the decals and go with paint. That would actually be easier to distress anyway.

    Thanks,
    Russ

  21. #71
    Chris Nicastro's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    It should cut ok and with a new blade Im sure it will be easy. Its thin too.
    Like a midget in a urinal I knew I had to stay on my toes...

  22. #72
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    I finally got the wing detailed and started painting it tonight. I think I matched up a gray color that matches the aluminum look ok, but we'll see.

    I'm having a problem though. After I sprayed, I noticed I'm getting some orange peel for the final paint job. I've seen this before and whenever I look
    online to find out what the cause of it is, I find about a 1000 hits and 20 different answers. So I'll provide the details and hopefully one of you will
    have some idea as to what I'm doing wrong.

    The gun is a Harbour Freight (Central Pneumatic Professional) gun. It is the larger of two that I bought in a kit. It's an HVLP with a recommended 30-35 PSI
    pressure usage. The paint is the same Pant Shop (Duplicolor) paint I mentioned above. It is pre-thinned and it is a milky consistency. I'm spraying at the bottom number
    of 30 PSI and though it varies, I'm holding the gun about 6 - 8 inches away from the wing when I spray. I sprayed a light coat at first, waited about
    5 minutes then sprayed the wet coat. I was kinda overly cautious not to get too much on and get runs, so maybe I just didn't get enough on for it to
    flow out correctly.

    Anyone have any thoughts. I don't have my camera handy right now, but I can get pictures tomorrow. It may change after it has had a chance to dry more.

    Thanks,
    Russ

  23. #73
    Chris Nicastro's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Orange peel or fish eyes?
    Orange peel is caused by the paint not leveling out so this might be just a set up issue with the paint consistency and temperatures.
    I found that usually the cold weather gives me some orange peel but not often.
    Make sure your paint temp is not cold, so above 70 deg., and try to paint in a warm place. This helps the paint flow and then flash off correctly.
    The other issue is when you layed down the first base coat was it done smoothly or was it dusty and dry? If it was dusty then it can make a texture under the final coat. The base coat has to be smooth and flash off before the second normal coat is painted on.

    Fish eyes is a condition when there is an incompatible chemical on the surface of the part like silicone or hand lotion or body oils. The paint will litterally leave the area and spread out looking like a bunch of fish eyes. This requires a good cleaning and degreasing of the part and repaint. If this is on top of the primer then its just a cleaning problem and more prep work.

    So even though its expensive try to test and set up your paint gun and paint on a practice part or sheet and see how this paint behaves for you. Get to know it and it will go smooth from there.

    Also when helping to dry the part do not apply direct head to the painted surface. Apply the heat indirectly to heat the part from back to front or inside out. This will let the gases escape from the painted side and not trapped by the paint itself which takes longer.
    Like a midget in a urinal I knew I had to stay on my toes...

  24. #74
    Leroy Gardner's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D


    ORIGINAL: rlemaster

    From the pictures, what I have is definitely too large. I'm going to check with the people I bought them from to make sure they didn't send the wrong decals but the correct instruction set (that's the only place the 1/5 scale is written).

    In either case, there are some differences. For example, the picture showing the hatch just above the trailing edge of the wing on the fuselage that says ''Coolant Vent'' on the pictures you show are worded as ''Coolant Filler'' on mine. Could that be a difference between British and English wording or something? But if I put both of those on that hatch from these decals, I'd have to make that hatch something like 2 x 2.5 inches. Much larger than it should be from the visuals.

    Frets, is that p-51 a 1/5 scale?

    Thanks,
    Russ
    May be a little late for this but graphics I put on my 1/5 mustang are from Aerotech.com and the fuse. star is 6" and the wing stars are 7". Cindy produces scale to size and they look very close in size to the full size plane. They are dry transfer by the way and look like their painted on. Leroy
    Leroy Tiger Club # 53, TF 1/5th P-51 mustang
    Eagle 2 11, bashed Tiger 60, Spacewalker 11 1/4 scale
    P-51 Mustang Brotherhood #28, Sig Brotherhood #12
    If it works for you there is still a wrong way

  25. #75
    frets24's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Leroy, could you check that vendor for dry transfers; Aerotech.com is an industrial staffing company. Did you mean Aeroloft.com? That's where I have had mine from in the past, though Cindy doesn't ring a bell...Can't remember the young lady's name that I spoke to[&:]
    "The American taxpayer has always been politicaly deceived. It's their Birthright!"
    Lord Mountjoy, 'The Mouse on the Moon'


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