Leroy Gardner

Chris, being a designer, builder, mold maker and manufacturer you know every way possible to do lines and rivets and the screws. Your input would very helpful to many wanting to do some form of this. You are more qualified than I in that you know where to buy these supplies and guide lines of how to use them. More guys would probably do some form of this when they see how easy and inexpensive it can be. Face it, it makes the most simple plane look really cool what ever the form. Leroy

Leroy Gardner

Russ, tedious it is but the gleam in your eye when you see the finished product will surely make it worth the time and effort. You only get out of it what you put into it and I'll look foward to see it when it's done, Leroy

Chris Nicastro

My Feedback: (3)

Thanks Leroy, your Mustang looks just awesome, the finish you worked out makes it look like a composite kit rather than a built kit. Great job truly. I would love to shoot some photos of your plane in the sun and really capture the work you put into it for all to see.

There are many ways to do this detail work and for every person that attempts it there is a way to do it. I have several techniques and solutions for this having made master models for various clients and companies. It just comes down to how much time you wish to invest in this effort. Its very detail oriented and tidious ( read mind numbing ) but the rewards are fantastic if you wish to see it through.

Tools and techniques combined with trial and error is the best way I can explain it. You need to make your own tools or ask someone to make it for you. Then you have to learn how to use the tools. Once you get a good result you have to repeat it until done or it will be obvious when you see two parts side by side that they are not the same. You have to try and be as symmetrical as possible unless the parts are not in real life.

For panel lines I use a jewlers engraving tool when possible. Its super sharp and very accurate. Otherwise another simple favorite is a #11 xacto blade thats modified by breaking the tip at an angle and then draging the back side edge to make the groove in a surface. You get very clean lines this way and great depth control.

If you need an edge to follow try getting steel rulers that machinists use, they call them "scales". A good machine shop store should have these as seconds that are cheaper than the new ones. I have one of each size from 24in to 6in and these are awesome for surface work because they are flexible and durable to scribe against.
You can also make your own shapes and guides from spring steel sheet.

One other trick to get different surfaces and "tile" a surface is to use tape or self adheasive wax sheet by applying a strip along a panel line edge. Then you build up the surface with body filler like Evercoat glazing body filler. You build it up along the edge and even it out then sand it down to the tape or wax. Then you pull away the tape and it will reveal the uneven edge. Then you can scribe a line next to this new edge and the end result is a convincing pair of uneven panels. Do this several times over a large surface to break it up from looking like a hot rod perfect surface. Once painted and weathered this will look like a convincing assembled surface structure with rivet or screw detail added.

Many many ways to get detail on your model and some will look better than others. Think of scale and proportion and how the full scale article was made to give you clues on how to reproduce the look your after.

Leroy Gardner

Thank you Chris, coming from a pro makes me feel pretty good. There is quite a story about the work I did and the 7 mo's I spent developing the scribing method I used. Tools were the key to doing this work, in my case I used dental picks modified to cut lines not scratch them, needless to say I got a little excited about the prospects for my plane and learned alot along the way. I got burned out some after I worked so long and hard to get it done enough for our show and there is still work to finish it up. We can get together at some point and yes you can take all the pict's you want but I'd like to get it finished first. Your welcome to come over to my shop any time and I would welcome your views about the incredable things that can be done to our planes.

I dont know if you visited my thread on Easy Lines and Rivets In Tips and Techniques but it describes much of how this is done. Having problems moving a URL, sorry.

See ya at a meeting, Leroy

rlemaster

Well, I completed the vinyl masks and chart taping tonight for the scoop and sprayed the first cote of primer. I think my screws are a bit large because I didn't realize the Sillouette software was scaling it up when I imported the DXF, but it isn't crazy large. I'm just going to leave it as is and make them smaller when I get to the rest of the fuselage. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I'm going to finish this then paint it and weather it to see how it turns out before I do the rest since I can easily just sand all of this away and redo it if I want. I'll try to upload some pics along the way.

Later,
Russ

rlemaster

This has been a learning day for me. Unfortunately, the hard way. I completed the scoop and painted it with Rustoleum Aluminum. My first problem was that I sprayed on the primer too thick so it cracked when it dried. This is the Filler & Sandable stuff from Autozone. I tried to sand out the cracks, but didn't have much luck. I then just tried to put a thin coat of just the Sandable primer on it and sand that out a bit. Of course it partly filled in the rivet, screw, and panel indentions but they were still there. Oh well, I decided to move on and paint just to see how it would turn out. Of course, the cracks showed up in the paint. Oh well..

So then I tried to weather it a bit to see what it would look like with the indentions "grimed". I used black model master's acrylic + a little bit of rust color and here is where things got really yucky. I tried to just spray it own with an airbrush over the indentions and then wipe it gently hoping to leave the paint left in the indentions. However, what I got is where the paint dried around the edges of where I sprayed and it wiped out of the indentations. Sooooo... I had the idea of letting it dry a little bit then using rubbing alcohol to wipe it off of the surface but leave it in the indentions. Well, that just primarily wiped off the aluminum paint (well, it looked like that anyway, it darkened it and definitely took out the sheen).

So the question is... what am I doing wrong in the weathering step. I've seen this done many times before here and in other places. I can't figure it if it is my technique or if it is because the indentions weren't deep enough (or the edges weren't sharp enough). Anyone run into this before?

Thanks,
Russ

Leroy Gardner

Russ, there are times when you have to just laugh at some of the comical things that we go through trying to accomplish something through trial and error. I remember times when I wanted to pull my hair out when nothing went right. For some thats how we learn so don't give up.

Maybe Chris Nicastro will catch up to your problems and chime in, he is a master at this stuff.and may guide you to some threads that show how this stuff is done. Their here some place I just don't have a record of where.

Hang in there, you'll get it sooner or later, Leroy

Chris Nicastro

My Feedback: (3)

Ok lets start with just basic painting techniques. It seems from your description of the painting so far there are a couple things I can suggest to try and steer you in the right direction.
Paint choices:
To start the primer and paint should match in their basic chemistry so laquer and laquer or enamel and enamel. Mixing and matching them is not a good idea unless your very familiar with their behavior.
A sandable non water based automotive primer is best and then a matching paint system. A great spray can primer I like to use is called U-POL which is a solvent based high fill primer. It sands easy and dries fast. There are 3 colors, gray, black and tan. You can spray pretty much anything on this primer after your sanded and ready.
For a metalic paint finish you want to use a thin paint system and the laquer based paints are the best for this but expensive. Look at Alcad, Testors Model Master Metalizer, and Tamiya aluminum paints. These are all laquer solvent based. Stay away from Rustoleum and those household paints but the sandable primer is OK for some things.
I used to mix nitrocellulose laquers from PPG by hand and mix in aluminum powder to make my own metalic finish for models. Making a metal finish is not as easy as it seems and how its sprayed as well as what the paint is will determine the outcome.

When the paint is prayed on too thick and runs you must let it dry out for a couple days then sand it. Rustoleum can be gummy and build up in the sand paper so watch this and try to wet sand if possible. Sand it away and start again. If you wet sand you have to make sure the paper is for water sanding use.

Do you have a touch up paint gun?
What kind of painting experience do you have?
Can you post photos of the work done so far?

rlemaster

Hi Chris,

I have the el-cheapo large and small paint gun set from Harbor Freight. I also have a couple of Pasche sprayers.

I'm using Rust-Oleum auto primer "2in1" Filler & Sandable to do the build up around my panel tape, etc. It seems to go on a little thicker for each coat. However, on the scoop.. I tried to use some cheaper primer (the "Touch 'n tone" ) stuff from autozone. Now I'm wondering if it is primarily an enamel primer versus a lacquer primer. That would make since because it cracked after I sprayed the rustoleum primer on top of that. Also, you are right about the paint. It is like rubber when you try to sand it. I decided to just start over on the scoop since I'm using it to experiment with and it took me forever to sand it off.. even wet sanding.

Unfortunately I decided to redo it and clean off everything before I got pictures, but it was really nasty. I don't think I want to use the rustoleum aluminum at this point.

I'm looking around for a good lacquer solution. I do like Model Masters but it would cost a fortune to paint a 1/5 scale plane using those little bottles. I wish they sold that stuff by the pint or something.

I've been looking at the Dupli-Color Paint Shop paints. These are the pre-mixed quart paints for automotive finishes. They do have a fairly good aluminum imitation but I'm not sure about how good it would be for this type of application. I do intend to clear coat whatever I use with Klass-Kote clear so I'm not worried about fuel issues. I would even think about using Klass-Kote Aluminum if their paints weren't so darned expensive. Part of what I'm doing while building this plane is finding ways to reduce cost so I can afford to keep building.

Do you know anyone that has tried using the Paint Shop paints? I know I will have to mix for specific colors, but that's no issue.

As for my experience, I've done a couple dozen plastic models using an airbrush and about 6 rc models but none that I would consider "scale" like. Most are sport planes where I'm going for a really cool sharp look with bright colors. So, I pretty much have the use of the air-gun down and have played around with different types of paints, but where I'm lacking is in detailing and weathering, etc.

I've seen two types of weathering techniques. One where an air-brush is used to highlight the panel lines, etc. and the other where a dark wash is used and that tends to build up in the recesses, etc. I was trying the second option when I didn't have much luck. I've seen it done though and I'm assuming it is just something I did wrong.

Thanks for all the input, I hope I've answered your questions so that you have a better idea as to what might have happened. If not, feel free to ask.

Thanks,
Russ

rlemaster

Leroy, no problems really. I'm like the energizer bunny.. no matter what happens I just keep going and going.
Thanks for the encouraging words though. I think one of the things I'm finding to be so challenging is that I'm trying to figure out a way to do my builds using materials I can get locally and that I can get as cheaply as possible. I want to do more scale building, but as you know, it can really get expensive when you want to go all out. The cheaper the methods I can find, the better. Within reason of course.

Thanks,
Russ

Leroy Gardner

Russ I have to admire your approach in what your doing, reminds me of what I went through trying to find the paint to put on my plane, not to mention the other accpmplishments I did. you can spend plenty just testing the many rattle cans out there only to find they just don't perform up to expectations. Money is tight these days for many and I know where your coming from there. You might just stumble on to something that will work for you, there is so much out there you hardly know where to start. I wo'nt go into how I painted my plane for you because it was'nt cheap but I think there are other less expensive paints out there, I just never found them.

Keep on plugging along, something will turn up[8D] Leroy

rlemaster

Well, here is attempt number three with my testing on the scoop. This one came out much better so far. I've created the panel lines (chart-pak) then I used a home-made tool to do the rivets. I started to use the soldering iron option here, but this is abs plastic and I've sanded it down so much it is a little thinner than it was so I was concerned about burning through it.

The tool, as you can see in the picture, is just a 3/32 brass tube with the tip sharpened (on the inside) and 4 notches created with an exacto knife to give it a little bit of a cutting effect. It worked pretty well, but as you can see in the pictures, there were a couple of cases where it pulled the center out in the tube. I'm going to partly fill in the ones that pulled the center out with glue and let it dry, that should fix it "sort-of".

The panels are vinyl with the screws part of the pattern. Once it is painted, it should show up pretty well.

I stopped by and got a quart of Dupli-Color Paint Shop silver tonight that I am hoping will provide a good enough metal finish. We'll see. I'll post pictures of the finished product once I get it painted. Then I'll probably be asking for some weathering advice at that time.

rlemaster

I prepared a small test piece tonight. It's just ABS plastic left over from a previous build. I didn't prime it, just sanded it, cleaned it, and added a couple of rows of vinyl rivets to see how the paint would show depth, etc.

Here are some pictures of the test piece I sprayed. This is two quick coats (within about 5 minutes of each other). It went on really even and was easy to spray. At this point, though, it looks a bit "glittery" for my taste. I'm going to let it dry really good and try to buff it and see if that helps any. The sheen and color is right and actually it reminds me a lot of the model masters silver from the looks of it but I'm definitely going to test this a bit more before I spray my primed and ready scoop.

This is Dupli-Color Paint Shop metalic silver. What do you folks think? Is it worth pursuing? If not, any other recommendations for inexpensive lacquer solutions?
I think some of the rattle can metalics at Autozone might be a bit more realistic than this.

UPDATE: I let the paint dry for an hour or so (I love how quickly lacquer paint dries), then took some 000 steel wool and rubbed a little in different directions to see if I could get a better raw aluminum look and actually it's looking better. Keep in mind this was with only two coats and with only 1 hour drying time. I think I'm going to add another coat and let it dry over-night then see what I can do with it. When I did this with the Rustoleum enamel, it just turned to a dark gray. This actually has more of a sanded down aluminum look to it. The last 3 pictures show what it looks like after the rub-down. The long edge where there are no rivets was rubbed length-wise and the shorter edge (at the bottom of the picture) was rubbed horizontally (though only a few passes).



Thanks,
Russ

Chris Nicastro

My Feedback: (3)

Cool, your way better off than I thought so thats great.
On the aluminum you can experiment with different cloth to get a finish in the aluminum paint finish. If you use steel wool it will be heavily streaked and this is not very scale. It will end up looking good to your eye in full scale but the model is 1/5 scale so you need to keep that in mind. When you stand 20ft away from the full scale plane its like standing 4ft away from your model. If you look close at the full scale Mustang sheet metal it has a very fine finish already so in 1/5 scale this is even finer. In order to acheive this look I suggest a cotton shirt or a rag that gives you some directional detail but not heavy grain in the finish.

For weathering since your doing a metal finish model you will probably prefer to just do some airbrushing for the exhaust and some details here and there. Camo planes benefit more from weathering because there is paint to chip away and wear. You will have limited painted areas to weather on a typical bare metal Mustang. The best approach is to slightly change the color of the metal panels to tile the surface into an assembled looking surface. As you noted you can apply a dirty wash and then wipe it away to darken the panel lines and details. This in addition to tiling the panels will have a very nice effect. Also the direction you rub the paint coupled with alternating panel directions will further add to the optical effect.

Keep it going I think you will do just fine!

Chris

frets24

My Feedback: (15)

For painting and weathering I have used a sequence that allows a great deal of flexability in the final stages, namely weathering, that has really worked out well. Step 4 & 5 are key.

1) Prefinish work; this includes priming, panel line, rivets and everthing before final colors. The last step of this is a good aluminum finish overall regardless of how I plan on continuing colorwise.

2) Finish colors and paint details; This includes painted stripes, insignia, camo, whtever was painted at the manufacturer or in the field prior to the plane ever really being used much. The last step of this id decaling and or nomenclature. The P-51 has LOTS of little ''notes" all over it.

3) Distressing; Start sanding and chipping and wearing away at that beautifull factory finish and fresh decals etc to expose your underlying aluminum (or dope primer on fabric surfaces) as desired.

4) SEAL IT!; Once you have the painting and distressing just how you want it, clearcoat the whole thing. Up untill now everything has been laquers and enamels. Enamel goes well over laquer but, laquer over enamel takes a honed technique and even then can destroy you work. The clear coat is a solvent based or non-water soluable/reactive finish; usually a poly-u or enamel clear. This is important.

5) Weathering and staining; Now the clearcoat makes sense and saves a lot of work. Exhaust stains and gun residue are really hard to get right as well as other muddying or staining processes so it's really nice to be able to experiment and "erase" what you don't like without, as in your experience, messing up the prior work. After the clearcoat everything is done with acrylics. They spray nicely with an air brush, wipe nicely and all other manner of application and if you goof they can be "erased" with alchohol and a wipe. Even after weeks. This allows a HUGE amount of flexibility to hone your techniques and allows you to do it without worry that you mess something up since the alchoholand acrylics won't disolve youtr clearcoat "canvass". Once you are finished and look at it for a few days you can decide to rework stuff of give a final clearcoat and or fuel proofing and it's done.


Here's a few pics of the extemes this can allow you to go thru without worry.

This is some of misha034's work found here: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_90...30/key_/tm.htm

Here's a great link to final detailing techniques for "that in-service-look"; http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_94...tm.htm#9431135

mirce

On last two models I was using pastels. It's easy to work with, and every mistake you can fix.

Here is link how it look on my Meister P 47. Weathering start from post 490...

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10...20/key_/tm.htm

On yellow F6F it look good too...

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_37...25/key_/tm.htm

Here you can see all steps for adding scale details on model, and after that - weathering...

More photos and information you will find on my web site...

Regards

Mirce

rlemaster

Mirce, I've seen some of your work on other threads. In fact, you are the one that inspired me to look at using vinyl for some of my details and your work is truly incredible.
I've seen others using pastels as well and it does look like it would be very easy to undo it and start over again. Also, if you think about it, that's really more or less what happens in real life anyway in so far as collecting dirt, dust, etc.

Frets, when you do your clear coating, do you have problems with that clear coat filling in things like panel lines, etc.? That's what I was concerned about. I am going to be using KlassKote clear for this and yes, when you put that stuff on and let it cure, you could pretty much soak it in a vat of acid and it not hurt it. It's easy to wipe stuff off of that finish.

I tried some other tests tonight. I bought some white and black Dupli-Color Paint Shop paint and mixed it to try and get a gray that was close to the metal finish look (I got it too dark, but that's another story) then sprayed one end of that piece I show above. Except for some orange-peel, it turned out really great. Within an hour I was able to sand on it with 3000 grit paper and with just the one coat it leveled out really well. I also put another coat of the silver on and used some rubbing compound on it and it really turned it in to a convincing aluminum. I'm sold.

Now it's time to jump in the deep end and spray the scoop and see how things go there.

You guys have provided some really great advice and I appreciate it very much. I'm going to try and keep this thread going and post some pics on how things turn out. I welcome any and all comments.

Thanks,
Russ

rlemaster

Mirce, just curious. I was looking over some of your other threads again and I noticed where you had some rounded off raised rivets in places. Did you still use vinyl for this? I'm assuming you had to then use glue drops on the vinyl? Of course, with the P-51 I won't have many of these, but for future planes I really like the look.

Thanks,
Russ

rlemaster

Well I dove in deep tonight and went ahead and sprayed my scoop I prepared as seen above. I'm really loving this lacquer paint as it dries really quickly. I can spray it then handle it in about 20 - 30 minutes or so easily.

The pictures below are after 1 coat. I'll most likely buff it a bit then shoot another coat over it and buff that out. The rivets came out "ok".

I'm also including some pictures of where I've started working on the vinyl rivets on the top of the wing and where I've already primed and popped out the vinyl on the bottom side. I'll most likely wet sand this after I get it all done and essentially blend in the rivet dimples so that it looks more like there was an attempt to fill them then I'll paint it with a non metalic gray that matches the metalic paint as closely as possible.

Thanks,
Russ

PS: In case your wondering, the remote isn't a DirectTV advertisement. I used it to prop the scoop up at an angle for the shot.

mirce

Hello Russ,

on my first Ziroli Hellcat, I used white glue (carpenter glue) to made rivets on the fuselage. That technique is fast and easy to fix any problem, but rivets are not same size.
Vinyl rivets are, for me, better option, because every is same size and all are in the straight line. When you paint model, and add clear cote, vinyl rivets get little round top...

Regards

Mirce

frets24

My Feedback: (15)

Any paint is going to fill the lines a bit. You just need a heavy enough coat to cover and lay out, so it's not much. I would highly suggest to just use a poly-u or enamel for your clear weathering base as the KlassKote is a relatively thick paint and will fill the lines a bit more than you may want at that stage of the work. I really do like the KK as a final fuel proofing though and have used a lot of it.

Leroy Gardner

Russ,"hey" it's looking pretty good. I had a feeling that as you progressed along you would get better and it's showing up. You have picked up some good advisors, one of the things I like about RCU there is always help to be found.

Keep up the good work, Leroy

Chris Nicastro

My Feedback: (3)

One thing to remember when shooting clear over your work. If you weather it then spray clear the clear has a tendency to blend the detail out and soften it. You have to find the balance between just right and too weathered. It can look like harsh streaks and other weird effects because the fine fades go away. I suggest testing this out and then also doing a base weathering job followed by clear and then a light top coat that can wear off over time. This is especially the case when using chalks or other fine mediums and then shooting clear over them.
Try it and see first!

rlemaster

Hey folks,

Thanks a bunch for the all of the encouragement and help.

Mirce, I see what you mean. I tested a couple of strips of rivets and went through the entire paint cycle and it actually winds up looking good.
Also, I noticed on your build post that you were using double layers of vinyl for those things you need to really pop out. I have to assume
your cutter allows for deeper cuts than mine (I'm just using a Sillouette SD). I'm thinking I could probably do something like that with one layer,
adhere it to another uncut sheet then just follow those cuts with a scalpel. This would only work for basic shapes though.

Just out of curiosity, if you don't mind saying, what cutter are you using for your double thick cuts?

I've almost finished the scoop now. Got it painted, decals applied, and did some highlighting, etc. I will probably take some rub & buff and do some
distressing around the decals, etc. then maybe some more weathering, but this is enough to have tested out all of the materials and
techniques I'll need for the rest of the plane.

I discovered something (after painting the scoop of course) when it comes to getting a good aluminum look for the Dupli-Color silver paint.
If I mix in just a little bit of white, I find it to be a better aluminum match and it doesn't darken as much when I rub it out. The silver
itself starts to look more like steel when rubbed out as you can see in the pictures below.

I used dark color pastels for the panel and rivet highlighting. I used too much though because I just used crayon like bars and rubbed it
in around where needed then wiped the surface clean leaving the grime in the recesses. I think going forward, I'll use something to get a much smaller amount
in where I need it before wiping out.

Thanks again,
Russ

frets24

My Feedback: (15)

That looks really good, Russ.

Has it been final clearcoated yet?

Like Chris said, the final clearcoat will soften some of the effects so what looks like too much now may be perfect after final clear. Regardless, what you have now is really good. Also bear in mind that it will REALLY look different from 10' away out in the daylight. What may appear to be a charicature of plane in the shop usually looks fantastic on the flight line and on a slow and low pass even better.