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  1. #1
    rlemaster's Avatar
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    Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Hey folks,

    I'm at the point where I'm starting to work on the finishing for my tf p-51d and I have a few questions.
    I've been able to pull some of the info I need from some of the previous threads, especially the TF P-51 build threads,
    but not everything.

    1.) How can I find out the correct sizes and spacing for rivets and screws? From what I've read, rivets for the 1/5 scale should be roughly 2mm in diameter.
    What I'm not sure about is the size for the assorted screw heads and the correct spacing. I have quite a few 3-views that show rivets, etc. but they are
    so pixelated that when I zoom in to try and get spacing, etc. the detail isn't very good.

    2.) What aluminum paint are people using? I've seen a build thread here where someone actually used model master acrylic chrome metalic and polished it
    with steel wool and it looks amazing. However, I want to use Klass-Kote clear coating and I'm not sure it would hold up under that. I've looked at some
    of the rustoleum metalic paints and some look kinda close. I'm not concerned whether the paint is solvent based or not. I do want to stick with paint and
    not flite-metal.

    3.) I've seen people go both directions as far as showing rivets on the main wing sections. Since the original factory made P-51's filled the dimples made by
    flush rivets and primed then painted over those, some choose not to put rivets there. However, I must admit that even though it may not be accurate,
    the P-51's that have simulated flush rivets look really cool. Is this a cardinal sin for this plane?

    Thanks,
    Russ

  2. #2
    Chris Nicastro's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Hey Russ

    #1
    I have taken photos of the screw heads with a ruler next to them. I have to find the photos but I can share that info asap. Funny thing the F-86 and P-51 share a lot of the same hardware and I have photos of both up close.

    #2
    This is something that you may just want to experiment with. Different people have different techniques and skill levels to acheive different finishes. A good laquer based metalic paint and polyurethane clear coat should do the trick and will be fuel resistant.
    Look at Alclad for a laquer metalized paint.
    One thing you have to test is the clear coat on the "finished" metal paint. I have seen it change and subdue the finish you like in the metallic paint. Layers are the key and the weathering can be done over the clear so its as strong as you like.
    Also if you are applying water slide decals do it on a glossy finish not a matt finish for best results. Shoot a flat or semi flat after and then do the weathering as needed.

    #3
    The wing on the P-51 was filled with bondo and sanded to about 2/3 of the chord from the LE. This is why a bare metal wing is rare to see and why they are painted silver to match the aluminum. I would paint the wing a basic silver and then try to do a more aluminum metalic finish on the rest of the plane. This would be more realistic.
    As for the underside the fuel tanks have large panhead screws that are very tall and highly visible. You can reproduce these with miniature hardware made of brass for trains for example.
    The rest of the rivets can be done with a handmade tool for the airframe as you know. We have a club member that is just finishing his TF GS P-51 and he glassed the whole plane and did the rivets and lines. He made a tool to make the slot head zeus fasteners for the cowl which turned out fantastic.
    Like a midget in a urinal I knew I had to stay on my toes...

  3. #3
    rlemaster's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Hi Chris,

    Any info you can provide on the sizes and spacing would be great and very much appreciated. The drawings I have make it very difficult to judge what the spacing should be and in some places it looks like the rivet spacing is actually adjusted to have the same number but for a longer run. For example, in a couple of places where there are rows of rivets in a trapezoid type configuration, the same number of rivets appear to be used on the shorter side as on the longer side with the spacing adjusted. My source for this is a scale 1/24 plastic model so take that for what it's worth. I do see some of this in the 3-views I have as well. It looks like most of the rivets are either spaced at around .25 inches (at 1/5 scale) or around .3 to .4 inches for others.

    I'm going to play around a little with some paints I have just to see how they come out. I've thought about ordering the Aluminum that Klass-Kote has, but I've never seen it and I'm not sure how realistic it looks. Thanks for the decal tip. I will be using water slides for some of my decals.

    I took a look at the Alclad paint and it does look reeeeaaallly sweet. However, the price (especially for how little you get) kinda soured it a bit.

    I have some pictures I got from Bob's docs and they do show the wing as being smooth and no rivets (with a few exceptions like around the guns, etc.). I'm going with the "Big Beautiful Doll" scheme for this particular build. I think my next one will be something more unique but my thinking was that I couldn't go wrong with this one given all the info out there.

    I'm going to be trying out vinyl cut rivets / screws / panels on this build. After seeing some of the results by those that have used Mirce's versions of these, they really look good considered how much easier they are to apply.

    Again, thanks for the tips,
    Russ

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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Remember, The Full scale Mustang had very few revits that where visible. The ones you could see are mostly around the wing fillet and the hoz. stab. There are "fastners" on and around the cowling.
    Greg Norman said, \"Happiness is a long walk with a putter.\" Obviously he never flew a P-51 Mustang.

  5. #5
    rlemaster's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    The pictures I have are helping some with that. Unfortunately, if you go by most of the 3-views out there it would have about 10,000 rivets all over the wing I'm using the pictures to see where they appear, then the 3-view to get more details on actual placement and spacing, etc.

    Thanks,
    Russ

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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Mustang wings were filled and painted at the factory but many were stripped in the field (particularly post WW2) and many restored Mustangs do not have filled wings. If you have a preference then a suitable prototype can most likely be found to suit your desires.

    Here are a few walkaround sites with good photos. The first one is particularly good with large, high res photos.

    http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/gi...o/p-51d-25-na/

    http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazin...p51d.htm#links

    http://www.grubby-fingers-aircraft-i...alkaround.html

  7. #7
    Leroy Gardner's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D


    ORIGINAL: rlemaster

    The pictures I have are helping some with that. Unfortunately, if you go by most of the 3-views out there it would have about 10,000 rivets all over the wing I'm using the pictures to see where they appear, then the 3-view to get more details on actual placement and spacing, etc.

    Thanks,
    Russ
    Believe me when I say 10,000 wing rivets in wing is'nt even close, there is more than that in just one side, don't ask how many, I can't give you the exact number. Anyway you do not need all those rivets unless your going full blown scale but the plane is off scale so you can't get to full scale no matter what. I put 8,000 rivets and dzus fasteners in my plane and it looks awsum. You can check it out in Tips and Techniques under Easy Lines and Rivets by Leroy Gardner. Sorry I have no URL

    Let me know what you think. Buy the way rivets are1/16" and 5/16" apart, lines are scribed. Leroy
    Leroy Tiger Club # 53, TF 1/5th P-51 mustang
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  8. #8
    rlemaster's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Hi Leroy,

    Thanks for the details. Like you, I've discovered it is just far too impractical to try and get every rivet right. I am using vinyl rivets and I'm going to try an experiment (heck this plane is one big experiment for scale techniques). In looking over some of the pictures of real planes, I noticed that.. even though the rivet dimples were filled and the wing was painted on the P-51 (most of it), on many planes you can still make out the rivets slightly. I'm not sure why. It's really hard to even tell if they are sunk or raised in the pictures, but there is a subtle hint of them. So... I'm using vinyl rivets on the main wing but I'm then going to come back and spray over them with a few coats of primer then gently sand the primer off of the rivets to make them more flush with the wing. I'll then paint it and hopefully achieve a look very similar to what I'm seeing in the pictures I have.

    For those areas where the rivets were exposed, I'll just paint over the vinyl rivets so I can then weather them around the edges. I have to say, though I'm not sure how it will come out yet, using the vinyl solution is much much faster and easier than the other methods (ie: soldering iron, etc.).

    I'll try to get some pics when I get to a point where I have all the rivets in then get a couple after priming and then after painting.

    Thanks,
    Russ

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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Vinyl rivets, lines for panel lines, dummy screws, paint masc, all that and more you can find on: www.nsmodelers.rs

    Check my web site and there you will find many pictures and information about everything you need for model scale finish.

    Best regards

    Mirce
    Rivets, Screws, Panel lines, Detail & Finish Sets, Paint Masks and other equipment for scale warbirds - www.nsmodelers.rs

  10. #10
    rlemaster's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Hi Mirce,

    Thanks for chiming in on this one. Your work shown in some builds I've been reading is what inspired me to give this a try.

    I'm lucky enough to have the equipment to cut these so I'm doing them on my own, but I love what you've done in providing a product for those that cannot do it themselves. Some of the examples you have on your site look amazing.

    Just out of curiosity, are you using clear transfer paper? One of the things I ran into is that if I use the transfer paper that I bought for the vinyl, it is difficult to place the rivets in the correct location since that paper is not very easy to see through. Believe it or not, I'm finding the best transfer "paper" is Scotch clear tape. This allows me to easily see under it and place everything in the correct place.

    Thanks,
    Russ

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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Hi Russ,

    I covered my TF P-51 with Flite metal. It can be polushed or burnished with scotch brite. I used the perforated tape that comes with the
    Rosie riveter kit for spacing of the rivets. I sharpened the end of 1/16" and 1/8 in tubing and pressed it lighty againist the the surface and it leaves a circle that looks like flush rivetes. For the screws I used a small flat screwdriver to make both sloted and crosspoint screws. Looks great. I will be happy to share some pictures if you want to contact me.

    Jim

  12. #12

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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D


    ORIGINAL: rlemaster
    Believe it or not, I'm finding the best transfer ''paper'' is Scotch clear tape. This allows me to easily see under it and place everything in the correct place.
    I use Scotch tape as well for transferring my vinyl rivets from the carrier sheet to the airframe. Clear transfer tape is available but, quite honestly, the Scotch tape method works fine and the Scotch tape is much cheaper than the transfer tape! (Alright, maybe not the Scotch brand but I use the generic stuff which can be found dirt cheap.)

  13. #13
    rlemaster's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Hey Jim,

    I may give flite-metal a try one of these days. I've seen some really great results with it on other models. Feel free to post any pictures you have, we like pictures.

    Chad, good... so I'm not completely crazy then. I've been using whatever my wife has laying around. I'm sure that come Christmas time she's going to freak out when she can't find any in the house.
    I actually thought about going and getting 8.5x11 clear adhesive label sheets and trying that. I may do that if I use the vinyl for masking since I'll need bigger transfer sheets but I will still need to through it so that I can align the vinyl for multiple color layers.

    So far things are going good. I've completed all the rivets (that I'm going to do) on the bottom of the wing. It took me about 3 nights to do and most of that was cutting and preparing the vinyl rivets for use. They really go on quick so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this works out to be my preferred method.

    Thanks,
    Russ

  14. #14
    Leroy Gardner's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    If you want to go nuts with rivets and chart tape try this. Use the chart tape and get it all on then the vinyl rivets, as many as you like in this case, prime and sand to expose lines " and " rivets then pull the tape and pluck carefully all those rivets off. At this plane should be ready for paint, don't do anymore sanding just clean it up and paint it. Your going to see something pretty cool. Do a test if you don't believe me. Have fun with your new knock your socks of airplane and be sure to post pict's. right here Leroy
    Leroy Tiger Club # 53, TF 1/5th P-51 mustang
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  15. #15
    Chris Nicastro's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Here a shot of a typical rivet and screw row on the wing of the F-86.
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    Like a midget in a urinal I knew I had to stay on my toes...

  16. #16
    Chris Nicastro's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Another example of a double row.
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    Like a midget in a urinal I knew I had to stay on my toes...

  17. #17
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    A phillips head screw row...
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  18. #18
    Chris Nicastro's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    This was typical of the era and both planes came from the same factory (basically) so the hardware and methods are very much the same.
    Rivets are very different from screw heads in that they are sanded flush to the skin and permanent. They are best represented by a circle etch or similar effect. Screws are more irregular on surfaces plus they have the detail of the cross or slot. These are sometimes proud or flush to the skin and require more attention to replicate. On a P-51 they also use a type washer to spread the screw head load so this is an added detail.
    See my other thread containing only Mustang detail photos.

    http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11230756/tm.htm
    Like a midget in a urinal I knew I had to stay on my toes...

  19. #19

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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Covered my TF ARC with silk and finishing resin. Used chart tape for lines before primer. Painted with latex flat. Rivets with pencil soldering iron and 1/8 " tube. Burnished panels with different grades of sand cloth. Clear coat with poly resin. Not perfectly scale but catches attention.
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  20. #20
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    I think alot of you may have seen it but for those who havent click on my magnafine glass and see my pannel line and rivet thread, may intrest someone. Leroy

    http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1682646

    I have a small problem moving this URL on rivets
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  21. #21

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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    I met a Gent who flew Mustangs during the war and restores them. He told me that no TWO rib stations were the same height. To rebuild the planes each station was shimmed to get the nice flat surface you see on the restored planes.

    WWII Mustangs were jig built and the aluminum riveted in place. The rib stations in the jigs were anything but even. Hence when you look at a period WWII Mustang what you are seeing is the deflection of the sheeting drawn against the rib stations. Thats difficult to achieve on our models using sheet balsa etc over even ribs.




    BobH.

  22. #22
    rlemaster's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Leroy, we must be mind synced... Last night as I was working on my wing after having applied my build up primer, I accidentally knocked one of the adhesive rivets out. I looked at it for a minute and wondered if I should try to put another there to make things consistent, but then it hit me that this was a much more realistic look than the "raised" nature of just leaving the vinyl rivets there and simulating the look of them. So, I've spent most of the day carefully popping out the rivets to leave a dimple. In this case, since I want just the smallest hint of rivets being there, I will wet sand this with 400 grit and leave a very small dimple. I'll have to do a good job of cleaning up afterward of course. So far I really like the look of this. Then I see your suggestion tonight, great minds huh


    Chris, thanks for the close-ups. This is exactly what I was looking for.

    Thanks for everyone's feedback on this. I'm very excited to see how this turns out.
    Russ

  23. #23
    Leroy Gardner's Avatar
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    ORIGINAL: rlemaster

    Leroy, we must be mind synced... Last night as I was working on my wing after having applied my build up primer, I accidentally knocked one of the adhesive rivets out. I looked at it for a minute and wondered if I should try to put another there to make things consistent, but then it hit me that this was a much more realistic look than the ''raised'' nature of just leaving the vinyl rivets there and simulating the look of them. So, I've spent most of the day carefully popping out the rivets to leave a dimple. In this case, since I want just the smallest hint of rivets being there, I will wet sand this with 400 grit and leave a very small dimple. I'll have to do a good job of cleaning up afterward of course. So far I really like the look of this. Then I see your suggestion tonight, great minds huh


    Chris, thanks for the close-ups. This is exactly what I was looking for.

    Thanks for everyone's feedback on this. I'm very excited to see how this turns out.
    Russ
    Well I guess some of us do think alike at times. Those litttle stick on rivets are only about 2 mills thick so remember, painting will fill and contour that little recess so don't sand too shallow or you can bury all that work when you paint it. Rivets in my plane are cut in with a 1/16" brass tube and they really came out nice, just don't go nuts with paint, two light wet coats will usually cover well and shoot straight at it if you can. See my plane rivets and lines which were scribed in. Leroy

    Russ one thing I want add to this, any time you sand lines and rivets don't wipe off first because you wipe dust into your work and paint will not stick, esspecially if you are going to do any masking. Use a vacume with a soft round brush on it first to pick the dust up then wipe with then wipe it down with a paint prep solvent to remove oil and hand prints. Leroy
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    Leroy Tiger Club # 53, TF 1/5th P-51 mustang
    Eagle 2 11, bashed Tiger 60, Spacewalker 11 1/4 scale
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  24. #24
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    Thanks for the tips Leroy, I did wipe a very small section and quickly discovered the problem you mention so I got out the vac after that. Basically the only sanding I'm doing is to break away the edges of the dimples where I popped the vinyl. I have to say that even though I'm really happy with the results, it was reeeeeallly tedious. At this point I've only done the bottom of the wing so I may reconsider and go with the soldering iron for the fully visible rivets.

    I've also been experimenting with another option. I always like to find crazy ways of doing things. I printed out some "rings" the size of the outer diameter of the rivets that are 1/32 wide (the ring thickness). I applied these then shot a couple of cotes of primer over them and then removed them. It left some really clean good lucking rivet rings. Now I'm trying some patterns for flat head and Phillips head screws to see how that goes. These would be rings with slots or plus patterns in the middle to hopefully give a really good screw look. I'll take pictures and post them when I'm done.. unless it comes out completely useless looking.

    Your surfaces look great by the way. I'll be happy if I can get half that quality.

    Later,
    Russ

  25. #25
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    RE: Finishing for a TF GS P-51D

    The light grey rivet decals that BVM have sold are still very good sport scale rivets. You can print these on decal paper at home from an ink jet or laser printer on clear film. Make up any size and detail and there you go.
    Like a midget in a urinal I knew I had to stay on my toes...


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