Ron101

My Feedback: (22)

I want to start this off by saying I have no hard feelings with my bud running this event or my club. But I was curious what others thought about this subjet.

My local club is having a warbird meet. I have been planning on going all year. Last year I flew my trusty old Hanger 9 Miss America P-51 and all was fine. Well as the event got closer this year and the flyer came out, on the flyer it said military schemes only. So I sent an email to confirm and was told I couldn't fly the plane. I have nothing else ready or their planes I fly at a larger runway.

So I was a bit shocked and disappointed. Knowing the history of this plane I know it served it's county well from 1944-1958 until it was sold as surplus and later would claim several world speed records.
http://www.missa-racing.com/

To me it paints a really gray area and excludes guys from flying for no real reason. Is a yellow AT texan trainer a warbird? a piper cub with stars and bars? How about a Blue Angles F-18? or Red Arrows Hawk (which I have) any trainer schemes that didn't serve in war? How about a Bear Cat the never saw any war time service?

I feel the hobby is getting so small and warbirds have lost much appeal to 3D flying and park flyers.... if it's a P-51, Texan, F-18...... let everyone join in and have fun no matter what paint is on it because at one time it was a warbird. Make your event a bigger event instead of putting more limits on who can fly. As it is the term Warbird event limits many already...

Is a Veteran that served his county well but has changed his cloths and removed his uniform no longer worth being honored?

So that's how I feel on the matter and wonder what you guys thought. Like I said I have zero hard feelings with my bud or the club, just disappointed and wondered what other modelers felt on the subject.

Thanks for sharing
Ron

weazel1

any ship that was used for anyreason should be good to fly just have different catorgories

Gohmer

Sounds reasonable to me. Why are you so special that they should change the rules for you? Poll you put up has nothing to do with the situation you are whining about.

Ron101

My Feedback: (22)

I don't want the rules changed for me at all... did you read that in my above post? or read into that? These guys are my buds
I am disappointed and wondered what other felt on the matter... I find it a gray area to make that rule. I see no reason for you to come off rude but it's very common on the internet and I'm sure your much kinder in person

stang151

If it has an AAF ser. no. , Navy Bu No , Werk. No , ect. on the data plate it is a warbird....

JeffH

My Feedback: (43)

I would think that a P-51 in any scheme should be allowed since they were designed to be a military plane while a J-3 was desinged as civilian plane first. It needs to be in OD or other military finishes to fly at Warbird meets.
Technically, if you painted your Mustang like Lou IV, you can't fly it there since that is a civilian paint scheme. The original was OD not blue. For that matter, any warbird that is not currently in the US military inventory, flying today is in a "Civilian Scheme".
Would they let my TF P-51 ARF fly? I chose to replace "Hurry Home Honey" with my Daughters' names. It is not a scale finish any longer. Granted I know that is taking it to the extreme, and I would be allowed to fly, but where do you draw the line???
The Miss America is just as much a Warbird as Moonbeam McSwine. They are both P-51s, they both are probably nearly 100% new meaning that nothing but a data plate is truly original, and they were both designed for the US Govt to defeat the Axis in WW2.

MajorTomski

In your one case I'd let the Miss America fly. By the way the 1:1 scale version is sitting in a hangar just 6 miles from here!

I think your second poll question aught to be "Plane types used by military at one time in any AUTHENTIC scheme is fine with me"

If the intent of the meet is to show military warbirds then their life after active duty as implied above should count. In my case I take care of the FAA's last DC-3C N34. It was a US Navy R4D-6 for the first 21 years of its carreer (1945-1966). But from 1958 till 1966 it was on loan to the FAA and flew in civilian N number markings. So does that disqualify a military owned aircraft that just happens to have other markings on it?

Does that disqualify a CIA turbo porter?

On the other extreme, something that comes from the RC jet community: Let's take a bland grey contemporary combat aircraft and paint it in a totally fictitious paint scheme. So yes, you have a war bird, but no I'll never ever see a 1:1 version painted up in that scheme.

Then again if your club is getting that picky then they should start functioning as a scale meet and disallow any plane that doesn't have documented proof that it was actually painted in the colors it's shown up in. That would leave a lot of folks out. I have an ARF Tiger Moth and a BUSA Fokker E-III, airframes that no one would argue were military owned aircraft operated in wartime. But niether airplane has a true scale paint scheme. The both "look" like warbirds but they too are un authentic schemes. So do they qualify?

scale only 4 me

My Feedback: (158)

Looks like I'm in the minority, but I voted to excluded your non military scheme plane,,, IMO it no longer represents a warbird, it represents a race plane.

The Blue Angels is a different story,, those are still and always have been flown by "active military" all be it as an Airshow team

Just the way I see it

uncljoe

My Feedback: (8)

The way I read your post ...".Well as the event got closer this year and the flyer came out, on the flyer it said military schemes only. So I sent an email to confirm and was told I couldn't fly the plane". NON military color scheme ..No Fly miss America a civilain scheme even if it was a "Warbird" here the CD s want a Military scheme ..  Blue angels / Red Arrows fine as they are Military schemes along with a Yellow scheme on a T-6 /SNJ is ok because it is a military scheme   The rule states a MILITARY SCHEME Not a warbird scheme .......
Semper Fi
Joe

Chad Veich

My Feedback: (60)

I think Jeff's solution is perfect and is exactly the way I would run a warbird event such as this. If the airplane was designed for military intent then I would allow it no matter what the paint scheme. If it is a civilian type that has been pressed into military service then it needs to be in a military style finish. Just my .02 cents of course but I think this solution perfectly addresses the issue and maximizes the allowable types that fit the spirit of a warbird only event.

And Gohmer needs to reconsider posting on days when he apparently got out of the bed on the wrong side.

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

I have to go with the event director on this one. He prepared for a warbird exhibition, expecting everyone to bring planes in war paint, and he put it in the flyer. Guys who will go to the trouble of organizing an event deserve the support of everyone in the club.

And if you want to have a warbird racer event, just organize one, publish the flyer, arrange for parking, vendors, transmitter impound (or specify 2.4G only), advertise it, get volunteers to help and have at it! Just be sure to let people know what you expect them to exhibit and fly.

That's what clubs are for, mutual support. If you don't fly whizbangs, and someone wants to have a whizbang meet, you can still help with parking, or sell popcorn, or arrange a door prize drawing, or play music for them. The whizbang guy will help out when you have that racer event.

Or so it seems to me.
Dave Olson

John Redman

My Feedback: (8)

Very interesting Ron. And for that matter, I think your position of flying your Miss America would be fine. If this was a competitive contest you would fly your Miss America P-51 flying P-51 manuevers and would be fully correct in every application. But it is what it is. As stated above, how far do they want to go? If they want to go that it must be in "military color's and a warbird", how do we define it? Is it defined by an aircraft scheme that flew in a position to fight for the country it is marked in? Or is it an aircraft that looks like a warbid and has some resemblence of correct markings? How accurate do they have to be? For example, the Hangar 9 30cc P-47 in it's current trim scheme is a museum bird that it's markings DID NOT EXIST in time of war. The model of the aircraft is incorrect. There never was a Hun Hunter XVI, and Wicked Wabbit was a razorback. Also if you go down the position of the Thunderbirds or Blue Angels, those aircraft are NOT warbirds by any means. They are specially purposed aircraft for Public Relations work and those airframes WILL NEVER see the light of combat at any time. In fact the guns have been removed, and the airframes are not certed in current form for weapons delivery! So they need to stay home by that possible reason. Plus I can assure you the Air Force and Navy would not send them to war in their current colors!!!

Really stinks! I guess the Event Director believes there is an overabundance of warbirds in the area. Even at Oshkosh far greater men than the director of your event allows racing trim scheme warbirds to fly because of their heritage. Listened to that announcing many times before. Feel for you man. I am on your side, you would think they would want the most models there that meet the basic criteria (aircraft type and not trim scheme type) to help foster a successfull event.

Easy to announce -
"Ladies and Gentlemen, approaching on this pass a P-51 Mustang that you will note is in Air Racing colors of the famous Miss America. After World War II a large number of our military warbirds fell into private hands and became air racing warriors showing the performance, speed, and agility they were known for when they defended this great country!"

Tell them they can use that line when they let you fly.

Good luck!!

rc34074

My Feedback: (5)

I think the military scheme requirement is good because it is a tribute to WW1, 2, and the other "conflicts", "storms", etc (not to the purpose that these planes have since been used), and while several have made a good argument for accepting postwar schemes it just isn't the same to me.

To me the best reason to accept the postwar/betweenwar schemes and planes is to show how respected the "warbirds" (both planes and pilots and the rest of the air force) have become for how they helped protect our freedom.

Ed

Granpooba

My Feedback: (5)

At a loss of words on this subject.

I can only assume that the hobby is changing with every new generation.

As Dr. Phil recently stated, " We have grown so politically correct that we have become STUPID ". []

invertmast

My Feedback: (23)

I can see it now...

a week, maybe two, or sometime after the meet, the CD / event director will come up to Ron while flying Miss america and ask "why didn't you fly this at our warbird meet?"


If it happens, you can say you heard it here first!

Granpooba

My Feedback: (5)

Thought that I would add one more comment or can even consider it a question.

The war birds in question may have had great paint schemes when they came out of the factory. But after being in a war theatre and being patched up to keep them flying and in the war, who knows what those original war bird schemes looked like ?

History shows that the last B-25 produced was bare aluminum with no paint. The only paint on the aircraft were the signatures of the people that worked on the aircraft. That B-25 was flown in combat, exactly as it came from the factory, with only the peoples signatures on it. Now, if somebody showed up at this so called war bird event with an all aluminum B-25 paint scheme and only a bunch of names on it, would he and the aircraft be barred from flying in the event ?

My personal opinion is that a war bird is a WAR BIRD, no matter what the scheme. A P-51 with a Miss America paint scheme is still a " P-51 ". And if my senior citizen memorey serves me correctly, P-51's were WAR BIRDS !

I would tell the event director ......... BITE ME !!!!

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

Heck, if it were me not only would civilian schemes not be allowed, but I would not allow all of these trainer types without guns either! If it aint firing guns it aint a warbird to me. Yep, sorry no stearman or AT6! We are here to do battle, not train!

BOLTMAN

My Feedback: (1)

So if you were to allow Miss America, a relatively stock Mustang, do you allow the likes of Dago Red or Red Baron or some of the Sea Furies that have been heavily modified in appearance as well as power? I think Mis America is questionable but I really think that the heavily modified machines are no longer "warbirds". They do not exist to pay tribute to those that served in or trained for conflict, they exist to race.

uncljoe

My Feedback: (8)

Ron

FireBee

My Feedback: (34)

I love white airplanes and three of my favorites are racers. At-6 Miss Everything piloted by Ralph Rino and two time winner, P-51 Miss Bardhal, and Cook Cleland's F2g-2 #94.

But today most events don't allow these warbirds. My third airplane was a Jemco AT-6, designer was j.e.meister. Perhaps you know his giant scale taken over by Dino. Anyway I finished 3rd in a contest (80's) with my "Miss Everything" paint scheme. One of the maneuvers I used was Reno racing laps. I did 3 laps low and fast and wrapping up the turns. One judge told me I was downgraded because I flew too fast for scale speed. Whoops senior moment that was a scale event.

So is a white japanese Zero a warbird? How about a bashed At-6, painted like a Zero? Would you let him fly?

Since Reno racers are usually tabu and I too don't like the trainer warbird, I have found a Navy Snj-4 in pacific tri-color blue,white scheme. Crew delivered intel reports and photo recon pics between bases around New guinea. For defense it had a .303 machine gun in the starboard wing. This will be what I use for my Ziroli At-6 someday.

FireBee

My Feedback: (34)

Chad, look out, red/orange Hellcats may be next to be banned! http://www.hellcat.cwvmodels.com/

What about photo recon birds like spitfires and Mosquitos?
P-39 or P-63's painted as target drones?

Just messing with you now.

sidgates

My Feedback: (2)

I think it is up to the people who put on the event to decide what is qualified and what is not. Most event directors can't be too picky or they severely limit the entries. I have a turbine powered F-15 with NASA colors, most local CD's would not restrict me from enter it.

91zulu

My Feedback: (2)

Hey Ron, I get on you sometimes about the electric stuff but on this one I`m with you 100%. Not sure what your CD is hauling but it must be bad. Last time I check a P51 IS a Warbird. Now I`m gona ask, are they going to check to make sure all colors on these warbirds are correct, right shade of blue, right color for aluminum and not gray or silver ? Cause the way I see it false colors should be in the same category as the Miss America Scheme.

Chad Veich

My Feedback: (60)

You could be right Mike! Some of my scale buddies have given me crap (in a light hearted way, not seriously) for not painting the airplane in a combat scheme so I wouldn't be surprised.

Ron101

My Feedback: (22)

Thanks for all the input guys....
right now its 33 votes to 33 votes....50/50 That's sort of what I expected

It really is a gray area and a tough call... my personal thought is include all you can and have fun

I sent an email to the CD with many of the points you guys laid out and being the very reasonable guy he is, he agrees we should include everyone we can. So I get to fly in the morning!!
Really happy about that and I was really just having more of a debate then anything not trying to be a cry baby.

But he had a good point.... if we allow any warbird in any scheme,,, what if a yellow piper cub shows up? it did fly in WII but was olive drab with stars and bars

My feeling is if you call it a warbird meet for the most part guys know what they should bring and won't get to crazy and try to just bring anything

I guess at some point you do have to draw a line, I'm just not sure where that line is