The 2013 Toledo show
04-15-2013, 04:51 PM
#26
RE: The 2013 Toledo show
For those who may say, maybe it was a young builder's first attempt, my answer is, I built RC airplanes for over 23 years before I ever thought any of my work was worthy of a competition. Nothing wrong with that. Again, society will tell us you don't need to wait. I don't agree. Be patient and humble as you gain experience and study what those who win do with their builds, if competition is your goal. Learn technique and hone you skills. It will come to you if you work for it. It really is the best, and most rewarding way. If you gain respect for those who are known as skilled scale builders, nothing will be more rewarding in the hobby than one day having their respect as well, as they view one of your creations.
04-15-2013, 05:38 PM
#29
RE: The 2013 Toledo show
ORIGINAL: OVSS Boss
Gary, since I am relatively new to the warbird scene, are you the gent that with your brother in 2012 had the Corsair at Toledo?
Marc
Gary, since I am relatively new to the warbird scene, are you the gent that with your brother in 2012 had the Corsair at Toledo?
Marc
2 second places for Zombie, first place for the Corsair. The Corsair then went on to Top Gun 2012 and won 2nd place there. Hopefully, she isn't done yet.
By the way Marc, welcome aboard!!!! I see you are not far away. Maybe our flying paths will cross.
I welcome a visit to my gallery and see more of our work.[8D]
04-16-2013, 02:58 AM
#31
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RE: The 2013 Toledo show
Ya Gary, we talked for a minute in '12, you guys were talking about the shifts you two did to get the ship finished up and about the guns and how you were working on the "rounds" and the puffs of smoke. I get to Canton on business, will try to run you down. Here is my project that should fly this summer.
Marc
Marc
04-16-2013, 07:27 AM
#32
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RE: The 2013 Toledo show
ORIGINAL: ram3500-RCU
Thank you for the posts and thoughts on this. I respect everyone for their right to an opinion.
Anyone who has been on this site for awhile, and is a scale builder, or admires scale building and enjoys building threads, particularly of war birds, know how I feel about encouraging others in building better airplanes. I spend a lot of time doing these threads that could be spent in the shop in the solitude of building. I sacrifice some of my time to this end. I do this because I have always appreciated others who do the same thing so that guys like me could learn and polish our skills, so I do what I can to pass it along. We our living in a society that has adopted an entitlement mentality. We agonize over hurting someones 'feelings' even when that person has little concern for ours. How about my feelings, and the pride we take in a competition like this? The hundreds of hours and all the expense on getting our labors of love right, down to the smallest detail, to be worthy of competition. Indeed, museum scale quality is what we all strive for, to feel our entries are worthy of a competition like the Toledo competition. It is insulting to me for someone to think that an effort like the plane in question is worthy to be judged along side these works of art. It is like displaying toddler finger painting along side the works of Rembrandt, and charging people to see it. Yes, we all pay to get in this show. It will be an even bigger slap in the face if any of the magazines choose to use pictures of this plane in the coverage of the event.
I anchorage model builders who aspire to a level of building worthy of competition to study planes like that wonderful Avenger, or Mike Barbee's T-34, and other fine examples of true craftsmanship. Don't fall for societies attitude that you have a right to whatever you do however you want to do it, and we all need to accept it. Our standards are high at an affair like this, and frankly, so should be yours.
Sorry, this scale builder does not have to accept poor scale quality in a national scale contest. It does not belong. If your planes don't need to be scale, that is fine, really, it is way fine. Have tons of fun building and flying them. I really have no interest in seeing them paraded at a scale contest posing as a work of art like most of the other entries are.
Toledo is a special event for me. Next year I will be back with what I hope is a worthy contestant. It will be a Meister Zero and I intend to bring all the craftsmanship that I, and my brother, can muster on her. It will take long hours and will be a considerable investment. I will share the experience in the forums as I always do, form the building to the competition, all the way to Top Gun I hope. It will be a pleasure to share the table next year with other like efforts. I have little respect for those who have no respect for that kind of an effort.
Thank you for the posts and thoughts on this. I respect everyone for their right to an opinion.
Anyone who has been on this site for awhile, and is a scale builder, or admires scale building and enjoys building threads, particularly of war birds, know how I feel about encouraging others in building better airplanes. I spend a lot of time doing these threads that could be spent in the shop in the solitude of building. I sacrifice some of my time to this end. I do this because I have always appreciated others who do the same thing so that guys like me could learn and polish our skills, so I do what I can to pass it along. We our living in a society that has adopted an entitlement mentality. We agonize over hurting someones 'feelings' even when that person has little concern for ours. How about my feelings, and the pride we take in a competition like this? The hundreds of hours and all the expense on getting our labors of love right, down to the smallest detail, to be worthy of competition. Indeed, museum scale quality is what we all strive for, to feel our entries are worthy of a competition like the Toledo competition. It is insulting to me for someone to think that an effort like the plane in question is worthy to be judged along side these works of art. It is like displaying toddler finger painting along side the works of Rembrandt, and charging people to see it. Yes, we all pay to get in this show. It will be an even bigger slap in the face if any of the magazines choose to use pictures of this plane in the coverage of the event.
I anchorage model builders who aspire to a level of building worthy of competition to study planes like that wonderful Avenger, or Mike Barbee's T-34, and other fine examples of true craftsmanship. Don't fall for societies attitude that you have a right to whatever you do however you want to do it, and we all need to accept it. Our standards are high at an affair like this, and frankly, so should be yours.
Sorry, this scale builder does not have to accept poor scale quality in a national scale contest. It does not belong. If your planes don't need to be scale, that is fine, really, it is way fine. Have tons of fun building and flying them. I really have no interest in seeing them paraded at a scale contest posing as a work of art like most of the other entries are.
Toledo is a special event for me. Next year I will be back with what I hope is a worthy contestant. It will be a Meister Zero and I intend to bring all the craftsmanship that I, and my brother, can muster on her. It will take long hours and will be a considerable investment. I will share the experience in the forums as I always do, form the building to the competition, all the way to Top Gun I hope. It will be a pleasure to share the table next year with other like efforts. I have little respect for those who have no respect for that kind of an effort.
While I agree with what you are saying about standards and quality vs. venue, I do think it is petty to point something like this out with pictures and reasons why you are pointing it out on an international public forum. When I see something like this, I shake my head, think to MYSELF that object does not belong here, and move on.
04-16-2013, 08:09 AM
#33
RE: The 2013 Toledo show
Opinions vary. They always will, but we are more and more living in a world where we are expected to keep are opinions to OURSELVES and accept what we see or here as a persons rights, right or wrong, moral or immoral, and so on.
For me, I cherish the high standards in RC building many of us have, and so I will continue to do what I can to preserve those high standards in competitions like this, that are viewed worldwide as quality scale competitions.
My voice is one, and rather puny at that, but as long as I have it, I will use it to support the purity of this venue in our hobby, that being a high level of scale building and flying of these wonderful planes.
I view things like this as an intrusion and a contamination of that venue. It should be brought out in the open for all to see so that folks think twice about posing as a 'scale' builder at an event such as this, with so little an effort.
Toledo will go on, and continue to be a place where scale builders can showcase our skills IF we make sure that the high standards of the past are not brushed aside by the indifference of the present. Otherwise, true scale lovers will cease to support it as contestants or patrons. Just the way it is.
For me, I cherish the high standards in RC building many of us have, and so I will continue to do what I can to preserve those high standards in competitions like this, that are viewed worldwide as quality scale competitions.
My voice is one, and rather puny at that, but as long as I have it, I will use it to support the purity of this venue in our hobby, that being a high level of scale building and flying of these wonderful planes.
I view things like this as an intrusion and a contamination of that venue. It should be brought out in the open for all to see so that folks think twice about posing as a 'scale' builder at an event such as this, with so little an effort.
Toledo will go on, and continue to be a place where scale builders can showcase our skills IF we make sure that the high standards of the past are not brushed aside by the indifference of the present. Otherwise, true scale lovers will cease to support it as contestants or patrons. Just the way it is.
04-16-2013, 12:32 PM
#36
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RE: The 2013 Toledo show
Well, unless there is some sort of qualifying competion required and a certain score that must be attained before one can attend this event, then a viewers expectations are his or hers to be met...or not.
I sing barbershop harmony music and there is a two year cycle of spring area qualifying competitons open to all choruses and quartets. Those meeting or exceeding the minumum cut off score move on to the fall district competitions. Only the winners from those contests are elligible to move up to the lsit of participants for the following years international competition. Each stage has higher and higher expectations and demands upon the performer with only the very best moving forward. So, without a pre-requiste to have successfully achieved a certain level of scale competition before entering the Toledo show, there is no reason someone who doesn't have the same experience as those with higher expectations would not feel justified in showing up. At that point the judging system will weed out those that don't qualify and the viewers can then agree or disagree depending on their personal preferences.
My point with the above is that I've gone to many barbershop competitons and heard quartets and choruses that do not meet my personal level of performance to be enjoyable, and that level has steadily moved upwards the longer I've been exposed to it. Other people at the same competition hearing the same groups have thought they were great and loved it. What is very valuable is that every competitor has an opportunity after the contest is over to work directly with the judges and get their feedback on exactly why they received the score they got and how to improve it. They are coached and given skills appropriate for their level to help them move foward and get better and more entertaining.
Perhaps this person has not been exposed to scale competiton and so has a different frame of reference and certainly different expectations than those with more experience.
Either that or you need to stand at the back door and not let anyone you feel is unworthy to attend from entering the building with a sub-par model.
Were there any similar examples of poor workmanship in any of the other catagories on display?
I agree that that particular example isn't up to the standards of the other models nearby, but without knowing the whole story its just opinions, which everyone has.
More pictures please!
Jaybird
I sing barbershop harmony music and there is a two year cycle of spring area qualifying competitons open to all choruses and quartets. Those meeting or exceeding the minumum cut off score move on to the fall district competitions. Only the winners from those contests are elligible to move up to the lsit of participants for the following years international competition. Each stage has higher and higher expectations and demands upon the performer with only the very best moving forward. So, without a pre-requiste to have successfully achieved a certain level of scale competition before entering the Toledo show, there is no reason someone who doesn't have the same experience as those with higher expectations would not feel justified in showing up. At that point the judging system will weed out those that don't qualify and the viewers can then agree or disagree depending on their personal preferences.
My point with the above is that I've gone to many barbershop competitons and heard quartets and choruses that do not meet my personal level of performance to be enjoyable, and that level has steadily moved upwards the longer I've been exposed to it. Other people at the same competition hearing the same groups have thought they were great and loved it. What is very valuable is that every competitor has an opportunity after the contest is over to work directly with the judges and get their feedback on exactly why they received the score they got and how to improve it. They are coached and given skills appropriate for their level to help them move foward and get better and more entertaining.
Perhaps this person has not been exposed to scale competiton and so has a different frame of reference and certainly different expectations than those with more experience.
Either that or you need to stand at the back door and not let anyone you feel is unworthy to attend from entering the building with a sub-par model.
Were there any similar examples of poor workmanship in any of the other catagories on display?
I agree that that particular example isn't up to the standards of the other models nearby, but without knowing the whole story its just opinions, which everyone has.
More pictures please!
Jaybird
04-16-2013, 02:36 PM
#39
RE: The 2013 Toledo show
Jaybird, yes, it is an open competition, but the word "SCALE" is part of the category. Now it does say "Sport Scale", which allows for some wiggle room on the detail, but, as has been noted, this has always been a venue where you could see modelers like Graeme Mears, Dave Platt, Mike Barbee, and a host of other well know modelers go head to head or side by side depending on the classes, with many lessor know or unknown builders like myself filling in the ranks and trying to aspire to the same level of craftsmanship. This competition is destined fade away, if this kind of watering down is allowed to continue. They won't stop these guys at the door. You pay to play. The only hope we have is to shame would be posers at scale competition into considering what they are doing, and rethinking there participation until they have worthy builds to compete with. It is better for the competition, better for the spectators, and I think it is, in the long run, better for the heath of the show. I have many foamies that I have done scale work on that could esily have beaten that bomber, but who wants to see a battle of foam and spray can paint. That is not what Toledo scale competition has ever been about. They do have a "Sport Plane" category that it could have been in, but no, this person considered his creation a "Military Scale" aircraft. Sorry, I can't agree.
Some of these judges are the same ones that judge Scale Masters and Top Gun events. Fortunately, they don't agree either.
Some of these judges are the same ones that judge Scale Masters and Top Gun events. Fortunately, they don't agree either.
04-16-2013, 05:10 PM
#40
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RE: The 2013 Toledo show
It would seem that without a qualifying score to bar the entry of a low quality model, it would be up to the individual to self crtitique, if they can or for there to be enough peer pressure to persuade them to reconsider. I would think that the judging results would clearly demonstrate what level of skill and ability is rewarded and what isn't. But, if it's a totally open competition then it's the modelers choice to put his work up along side those of other more skilled modelers. You'd think that some common sense and a step back to take a realistic look at one's own work compared to others would give a pretty strong indication whether the model should be placed on the table or left in the car. Not everyone has that ability to see things the way they really are, as noted with the Idol Singer wannabe noted earlier. I do feel that encouraging others to improve and helping them learn better skills (assuming they are willing to listen and learn) is better than pointing and laughing and trying to drive them out into the parking lot.
I'm not saying that any pile of junk should feel justified in setting next to these wonderful creations, but unless there are rules or qualifications to prevent it then you really can't do much more than look at the good end of the table.
My brother from Michigan has gone to the Toledo show and really enjoyed it and has sent a lot of pictures. You are all very fortunate to have that kind of event to attend and share your passion for scale RC.
Jaybird
I'm not saying that any pile of junk should feel justified in setting next to these wonderful creations, but unless there are rules or qualifications to prevent it then you really can't do much more than look at the good end of the table.
My brother from Michigan has gone to the Toledo show and really enjoyed it and has sent a lot of pictures. You are all very fortunate to have that kind of event to attend and share your passion for scale RC.
Jaybird
04-17-2013, 05:07 AM
#41
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RE: The 2013 Toledo show
ORIGINAL: Jaybird
It would seem that without a qualifying score to bar the entry of a low quality model, it would be up to the individual to self crtitique, if they can or for there to be enough peer pressure to persuade them to reconsider. I would think that the judging results would clearly demonstrate what level of skill and ability is rewarded and what isn't. But, if it's a totally open competition then it's the modelers choice to put his work up along side those of other more skilled modelers. You'd think that some common sense and a step back to take a realistic look at one's own work compared to others would give a pretty strong indication whether the model should be placed on the table or left in the car. Not everyone has that ability to see things the way they really are, as noted with the Idol Singer wannabe noted earlier. I do feel that encouraging others to improve and helping them learn better skills (assuming they are willing to listen and learn) is better than pointing and laughing and trying to drive them out into the parking lot.
I'm not saying that any pile of junk should feel justified in setting next to these wonderful creations, but unless there are rules or qualifications to prevent it then you really can't do much more than look at the good end of the table.
My brother from Michigan has gone to the Toledo show and really enjoyed it and has sent a lot of pictures. You are all very fortunate to have that kind of event to attend and share your passion for scale RC.
Jaybird
It would seem that without a qualifying score to bar the entry of a low quality model, it would be up to the individual to self crtitique, if they can or for there to be enough peer pressure to persuade them to reconsider. I would think that the judging results would clearly demonstrate what level of skill and ability is rewarded and what isn't. But, if it's a totally open competition then it's the modelers choice to put his work up along side those of other more skilled modelers. You'd think that some common sense and a step back to take a realistic look at one's own work compared to others would give a pretty strong indication whether the model should be placed on the table or left in the car. Not everyone has that ability to see things the way they really are, as noted with the Idol Singer wannabe noted earlier. I do feel that encouraging others to improve and helping them learn better skills (assuming they are willing to listen and learn) is better than pointing and laughing and trying to drive them out into the parking lot.
I'm not saying that any pile of junk should feel justified in setting next to these wonderful creations, but unless there are rules or qualifications to prevent it then you really can't do much more than look at the good end of the table.
My brother from Michigan has gone to the Toledo show and really enjoyed it and has sent a lot of pictures. You are all very fortunate to have that kind of event to attend and share your passion for scale RC.
Jaybird
Jim
04-17-2013, 06:54 AM
#42
My Feedback: (43)
RE: The 2013 Toledo show
ORIGINAL: Tmoth4
This says it all. A public forum is not the place to put anybody's work up for ridicule, no matter how bad it is. How do you know that it's not some 13-year-old kid's first attempt and is his pride and joy? The Toledo Show is an open competition where anybody can enter anything.
Jim
ORIGINAL: Jaybird
It would seem that without a qualifying score to bar the entry of a low quality model, it would be up to the individual to self crtitique, if they can or for there to be enough peer pressure to persuade them to reconsider. I would think that the judging results would clearly demonstrate what level of skill and ability is rewarded and what isn't. But, if it's a totally open competition then it's the modelers choice to put his work up along side those of other more skilled modelers. You'd think that some common sense and a step back to take a realistic look at one's own work compared to others would give a pretty strong indication whether the model should be placed on the table or left in the car. Not everyone has that ability to see things the way they really are, as noted with the Idol Singer wannabe noted earlier. I do feel that encouraging others to improve and helping them learn better skills (assuming they are willing to listen and learn) is better than pointing and laughing and trying to drive them out into the parking lot.
I'm not saying that any pile of junk should feel justified in setting next to these wonderful creations, but unless there are rules or qualifications to prevent it then you really can't do much more than look at the good end of the table.
My brother from Michigan has gone to the Toledo show and really enjoyed it and has sent a lot of pictures. You are all very fortunate to have that kind of event to attend and share your passion for scale RC.
Jaybird
It would seem that without a qualifying score to bar the entry of a low quality model, it would be up to the individual to self crtitique, if they can or for there to be enough peer pressure to persuade them to reconsider. I would think that the judging results would clearly demonstrate what level of skill and ability is rewarded and what isn't. But, if it's a totally open competition then it's the modelers choice to put his work up along side those of other more skilled modelers. You'd think that some common sense and a step back to take a realistic look at one's own work compared to others would give a pretty strong indication whether the model should be placed on the table or left in the car. Not everyone has that ability to see things the way they really are, as noted with the Idol Singer wannabe noted earlier. I do feel that encouraging others to improve and helping them learn better skills (assuming they are willing to listen and learn) is better than pointing and laughing and trying to drive them out into the parking lot.
I'm not saying that any pile of junk should feel justified in setting next to these wonderful creations, but unless there are rules or qualifications to prevent it then you really can't do much more than look at the good end of the table.
My brother from Michigan has gone to the Toledo show and really enjoyed it and has sent a lot of pictures. You are all very fortunate to have that kind of event to attend and share your passion for scale RC.
Jaybird
Jim
To blast an entry as a POS on a public forum is not helpful nor is it tactful.
04-17-2013, 03:37 PM
#44
My Feedback: (43)
RE: The 2013 Toledo show
Starting at post # 17 (through post 30) are the pictures I took around noon on Saturday.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11..._1/key_/tm.htm
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11..._1/key_/tm.htm
04-17-2013, 07:00 PM
#46
RE: The 2013 Toledo show
ORIGINAL: Tmoth4
This says it all. A public forum is not the place to put anybody's work up for ridicule, no matter how bad it is. How do you know that it's not some 13-year-old kid's first attempt and is his pride and joy? The Toledo Show is an open competition where anybody can enter anything.
Jim
ORIGINAL: Jaybird
It would seem that without a qualifying score to bar the entry of a low quality model, it would be up to the individual to self crtitique, if they can or for there to be enough peer pressure to persuade them to reconsider. I would think that the judging results would clearly demonstrate what level of skill and ability is rewarded and what isn't. But, if it's a totally open competition then it's the modelers choice to put his work up along side those of other more skilled modelers. You'd think that some common sense and a step back to take a realistic look at one's own work compared to others would give a pretty strong indication whether the model should be placed on the table or left in the car. Not everyone has that ability to see things the way they really are, as noted with the Idol Singer wannabe noted earlier. I do feel that encouraging others to improve and helping them learn better skills (assuming they are willing to listen and learn) is better than pointing and laughing and trying to drive them out into the parking lot.
I'm not saying that any pile of junk should feel justified in setting next to these wonderful creations, but unless there are rules or qualifications to prevent it then you really can't do much more than look at the good end of the table.
My brother from Michigan has gone to the Toledo show and really enjoyed it and has sent a lot of pictures. You are all very fortunate to have that kind of event to attend and share your passion for scale RC.
Jaybird
It would seem that without a qualifying score to bar the entry of a low quality model, it would be up to the individual to self crtitique, if they can or for there to be enough peer pressure to persuade them to reconsider. I would think that the judging results would clearly demonstrate what level of skill and ability is rewarded and what isn't. But, if it's a totally open competition then it's the modelers choice to put his work up along side those of other more skilled modelers. You'd think that some common sense and a step back to take a realistic look at one's own work compared to others would give a pretty strong indication whether the model should be placed on the table or left in the car. Not everyone has that ability to see things the way they really are, as noted with the Idol Singer wannabe noted earlier. I do feel that encouraging others to improve and helping them learn better skills (assuming they are willing to listen and learn) is better than pointing and laughing and trying to drive them out into the parking lot.
I'm not saying that any pile of junk should feel justified in setting next to these wonderful creations, but unless there are rules or qualifications to prevent it then you really can't do much more than look at the good end of the table.
My brother from Michigan has gone to the Toledo show and really enjoyed it and has sent a lot of pictures. You are all very fortunate to have that kind of event to attend and share your passion for scale RC.
Jaybird
Jim
Wish I had more pictures to post. I only took pictures of the war birds in competition. I just wasn't impressed with the ARF and Foam proliferation from most of the vendors. I did talk with Wendel Hostetler about his new Piper PA-28. He had the prototype on display. Wish I had gotten a picture. I would like to build one someday. I learned full scale and did my solo in one of these. I love it.
Thanks for posting other pictures.
