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TF 1/5 Scale P-51 ARF Assembly (1ST MISHAP!!!)

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TF 1/5 Scale P-51 ARF Assembly (1ST MISHAP!!!)

Old 02-16-2015, 09:44 AM
  #3451  
mark IX
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BTW, is the prop shaft on the R65 long enough to stick out past the hub on the Zinger 4 blade?

Thanx, Mark
Old 02-16-2015, 06:50 PM
  #3452  
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The thickness of the prop hub is too much for the standard motor shaft. A friend knows some one who has a metal lathe and will make me a longer shaft. He started work on it and found that a part of the lathe has been damaged by some one he loaned it to. The project is on hold until he gets a new part for the lathe. Maybe this week. By doing some measuring and comparing shafts between the 50cc and 65cc motors it looks like the 65cc shaft could be modified easily to fit the 50cc motor. It would take cutting one new snap ring groove and grinding flats for the 50cc bell on the 65cc shaft. This would save a lot of work and money (machine shop labor). I have cut grooves like this by chucking the shaft into a slow turning drill motor and using a cut off wheel on a Dremel. When my new Robart electric retracts stripped the threads in the linkage barrel (for no apparent reason) I made new linkage barrels from larger diameter mild steel rod from ACE hdwe., using the same method. The larger rod stock meant a longer length of threads in the linkage barrel and less likely to strip again. Any way, I have a lot of retract cycles on these parts now and no more problems.
Here is the new 4 blade with a TRU-TURN spinner and decals. Bill and I are itching to try out this setup as soon as possible. After the electric meet this weekend at Ocala Flying Model Club we are going to display the model at the Wildwood, Fla. Airport along side the full scale P 51 C BettyJane on February 21st. This is one of the Collings Foundation's Wings of Freedom Tour Stops. The last time we did this was five years ago at The Keystone Fla. airport. At that show I observed this plane come in fast from the west at about 1000 feet and go vertical for what looked like 4-5 thousand feet, something I didn't think a P 51 could do without a hopped up Merlin in front.
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Old 02-16-2015, 07:40 PM
  #3453  
mark IX
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I have seen that Betty Jane P-51 many times up here in CT as well. The Collings Foudation flys into one of the local airports every year. I have an autographed photo of their P-51C by one of the pilots. Flying in that is on my bucket list!! It costs around $3000 for an hour of flight. It is a dual control version. Pretty rare, would definitely be worth it. Anyway, I can't wait to see this prop / motor combo fly as well. Keep us posted.

Thanx, Mark
Old 02-23-2015, 05:07 PM
  #3454  
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mihelone,
On your tracking problem, I have always flown off of grass with little difficulty on take off or landing. Recently I joined a new club with a very nice hard top runway, long and wide. Naturally I'm using the opportunity to practice my To&lndgs which have never been consistent on hard top. Instead of getting better I found I was doing worse in each session. I had noticed a while back that the gear struts would sometimes compress and stay down about 1/4 inch. In looking for some reason my takeoff and landing skills I decided to check that out. With the plane inverted on its stand I compressed each strut and they would not extend fully on their own. I also found that while in this partially compressed state the wheels could turn easily either way off center. I disassembled both struts and found the lube had turned sticky and could not be wiped off, it would tear a paper towel. Also 1 of the scissors links was sloppy and 2 of the pins had measurable wear where the scissors rode on them. I keep scissors as spare parts so that was not a problem but I didn't have spare pins except in a new retract set I hadn't installed in its plane yet. They got robbed and i'll order some spare pins from Robart. It is still pretty cold here in Fla. (30 F) so I did not want to use lube that might get stiff in the cold. I went to the auto parts store and found some cable-chain lube and after applying that where it was needed I put it all back together. Last weekend my club had their annual electric event and it was COLD on Saturday. I did grass landing Sat. with no problems and went back Sunday to try the hardtop runway under better conditions. I was able to do a long slowly accelerating takeoff run concentrating on steering until it lifted off on its own(I have up trim mixed with takeoff flaps). The landing was the best hard top landing I have ever done with a slight hop at touch down and I kept the power on all the way to the end where it slowed enough for the tail to come down. It ran off the end into the grass about 15 feet but I had no trouble keeping it reasonably straight until stopped. I almost decided to go drag it back by hand being afraid of a possible nose over but went ahead and taxied it back ok.
I keep my wheels aligned straight ahead with no toe and I check alignment before each event.
I would recommend that you check your struts for these possible problems.
Old 02-23-2015, 06:35 PM
  #3455  
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I haven't received the parts I need for the 65cc RimFire yet but the Ramoser Varioprop Arrived finally so I assembled it and tested it on the RF 50cc motor. It tries hard and actually gave me 4470 watts but the amps were too high at 170. Pitch was set at 16 inches for the first run and this would fly at 65mph top speed, too slow for a GS P 51. The next test I set the pitch at 11 inches and this dropped amps to 97.7, watts to 2905 and rpm went up to 5202 so that unloaded the motor too much. I am going to try 12 and 14 inch settings and it might be flyable but I really think the 65cc motor is the way to go. My friend Bill is holding on for dear life for this test run, He said that was the strongest pull he had experienced from this plane including the gas motors. He is about to lose his hat in the picture. I noticed this and shut it down so the hat wouldn't end up in the prop or worse. The video from the action cam is more impressive, it looks like he is leaning into a hurricane. I think this 4 blade setup is going to work just fine. Reports I got from other flyers using this prop claimed their planes reached flutter speed. I am going to set up for the top speed I am already getting (about 110-115mph) and let others go for higher speeds. Imagine one of these props on a big Hacker motor.
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Old 02-24-2015, 08:18 AM
  #3456  
mihelone
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Originally Posted by sjhanc
mihelone,
On your tracking problem, I have always flown off of grass with little difficulty on take off or landing. Recently I joined a new club with a very nice hard top runway, long and wide. Naturally I'm using the opportunity to practice my To&lndgs which have never been consistent on hard top. Instead of getting better I found I was doing worse in each session. I had noticed a while back that the gear struts would sometimes compress and stay down about 1/4 inch. In looking for some reason my takeoff and landing skills I decided to check that out. With the plane inverted on its stand I compressed each strut and they would not extend fully on their own. I also found that while in this partially compressed state the wheels could turn easily either way off center. I disassembled both struts and found the lube had turned sticky and could not be wiped off, it would tear a paper towel. Also 1 of the scissors links was sloppy and 2 of the pins had measurable wear where the scissors rode on them. I keep scissors as spare parts so that was not a problem but I didn't have spare pins except in a new retract set I hadn't installed in its plane yet. They got robbed and i'll order some spare pins from Robart. It is still pretty cold here in Fla. (30 F) so I did not want to use lube that might get stiff in the cold. I went to the auto parts store and found some cable-chain lube and after applying that where it was needed I put it all back together. Last weekend my club had their annual electric event and it was COLD on Saturday. I did grass landing Sat. with no problems and went back Sunday to try the hardtop runway under better conditions. I was able to do a long slowly accelerating takeoff run concentrating on steering until it lifted off on its own(I have up trim mixed with takeoff flaps). The landing was the best hard top landing I have ever done with a slight hop at touch down and I kept the power on all the way to the end where it slowed enough for the tail to come down. It ran off the end into the grass about 15 feet but I had no trouble keeping it reasonably straight until stopped. I almost decided to go drag it back by hand being afraid of a possible nose over but went ahead and taxied it back ok.
I keep my wheels aligned straight ahead with no toe and I check alignment before each event.
I would recommend that you check your struts for these possible problems.
Dear Thanks for the reply. I have allready checked all those you suggest me to do, and I thank you again for the time you spent to write all those instructions down.
I 'll try it at my next flight season, in a week I hope...
Old 02-24-2015, 09:11 AM
  #3457  
mark IX
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SJhanc, awesome pics. Nice P-51, BTW. What diameter is the Varioprop? My feeling is the same regarding matching these 4 bl props with the R65. Lower kV, means greater torque and hopefully lower amps as well. Can you post that video you mentioned above?
BTW, no problems mounting the Vario prop to the R50? Looks like it was easier than the Zinger to the R65.

Thanx, Mark

Last edited by mark IX; 02-24-2015 at 12:20 PM.
Old 02-24-2015, 04:28 PM
  #3458  
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http://youtu.be/3VgO5uSfV5U Here is the Youtube link for the first test run of this prop. It was necessary to downgrade the video resolution because the High Def version would have taken more than an hour to upload. There is not much motion so it isn't too bad. I had set the pitch at 16 inches for the RF 65cc motor which is still waiting for a new shaft to fit the Zinger 22-16 4 blade. The VarioProp will fit any standard shaft length so I bolted it on the 50cc RF motor Along with the True Turn spinner I had modified to fit the Zinger. The battery is a 12s 5300 45c Gens Ace which has a lot of flights behind it and may be getting tired. I am changing to 12s 2p packs (6 4s 3200mah packs) as the 4cell Lipos are easier to find at reasonable prices. Especially if you puff a cell, it is not a financial disaster to replace a 4s pack. I am still going to do more test runs to see if I can find a pitch that will work with the 50cc motor. The amp draw for this test run was 170amps and the ESC cut power because full throttle voltage dropped below the 30 volt limit. I have since disabled the voltage cutoff. I would rather make the runway and lose a battery or esc than lose an airframe because the ESC is trying to save itself. It would probably be destroyed in the off runway crash anyway. The VarioProp is the 16D hub with 22.6 inch blades. I emailed [email protected]and gave him my motor and spinner info and after paying, it took a couple of weeks for the prop to arrive from Germany. I comes with full instructions for assembly and a spare set of bladesfor $228.00 including shipping and all adapter parts. I had asked for 10-32 threads in the prop nut for the spinner bolt but got 4mm instead so I drilled and tapped it to 10-32 myself. For any one else who wants to try this, I had conversations with pilots who had the Varioprop and one said his corsair did 150mph and the other said it got his plane to flutter speed. I plan to limit my plane to the 110-115mph that I am getting now and be satisfied with that. Another option would be to get a blade diameter closer to 20 inches, the 50cc motor would probably turn that size ok.
Old 03-01-2015, 07:27 PM
  #3459  
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Today I displayed and my friends took pictures and video of my P 51 B along side the full scale P 51 C BettyJane at the Leesburg, Fla. airport. After watching the full scale P 51 C make its first flight of the day with a passenger on board, the Collings Foundation P 51 C crew informed me that I was next up to make a flight on this beautiful fighter plane. Stunned, I didn't know what to say but I was not going to turn them down. After an amazing takeoff and climbing through a blue patch in the overcast clouds the pilot instructed me and demoed how he wanted me to execute a series of maneuvers- left and right level 360 turns, left and right wingovers, and left hand barrel rolls (2). I was grinning so hard my face hurt. When I get my feet back on the ground in a few days I will go through the hundreds of pictures my friends took and post some here. A few years ago I built a display model of their C model and shipped it to their headquarters and museum in Stowe, Mass. Where they have hung it in offices of the foundation. It took quite a while to put this display model (standoff scale) together, and even longer to build a shipping crate that could protect it and withstand forklift trucks. Here are a couple of shots of the display plane. The instrument panels were made from pictures of the real plane's panels(it has two fully functioning cockpits for flight training). And in the dark, shining a dim light inside the panels appear to actually light up. The firewall forward was hand carved balsa around a liteply box that supports the display prop and hand built balsa and ply spinner. Covering is Ultracote Chrome to simulate the highly polished full scale BettyJane. the finished model weighed 13 pounds. The landing gear and tail surfaces came from salvaged crash parts, cleaned and refinished. The fuse and wing are new Topflight ARF D model parts bashed into a C model.
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Old 03-01-2015, 07:31 PM
  #3460  
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I finally got the new motor shaft for the Rimfire 65cc motor from the machine shop so I will spend the next few days reassembling the motor and testing the 4 blade props to get it ready for the first flight.
Old 03-03-2015, 01:14 PM
  #3461  
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I tried to use the longer shaft the machine shop made but the fit in the rear bearing was too loose and caused excessive vibration. The original motor shaft was reinstalled and testing continued.
The motor used is the RIMFIRE 65cc.
Battery is a 12s 1p (2-6 cell packs in series) GensAce 5300mah 45c.
ESC is a Castle 160HVF.
Gross weight is 28.5 pounds.
Prop is a Ramoser VarioProp 22.6 set at 14 inch pitch and 16 inch pitch.
The propeller is rated for 4800 rpm so the full power run at 14 in. pitch would cause excessive rpm when the prop unloads in the air.
Take off at 1/2 power and 4000 rpm would be adequate with a pitch speed at this rpm producing about 55mph. This plane will not exceed 45-50 mph with the gear extended so this is adequate take off and landing performance. Use of an on board camera and a GPS speed indicator recorded lift off at 24mph using 15 degrees of flap and up elevator trim (25%) mixed with flap causing an automatic lift off (not necessary to rotate), when flying speed is reached. Gear up top speed would be about 70 mph without allowing for prop unloading. Peak amps were 119.3, peak watts were 4510. rpm 4861.
The next test run with the prop pitch set at 16 inches dropped the peak rpm to 4200 leaving room to unload in the air. Pitch speed is the same 70mph but amps dropped to 87.8 and watts to 3525. The lower load at a higher pitch setting is an indication of prop airfoil stall at static full throttle. This happens with 2 blade props that have a pitch higher than 8 inches.
In the case of un-stalled in-flight full throttle prop loads you can expect dramatic increases in current and thrust at medium flight speed that tapers off as the P 51 accelerates and reaches top speed. My ESC records acceleration current at over 130amps at 70-80mph that decreases to 70-80amps at 115mph. My personal experience is that the Top Flite GS P 51 needs to have a never exceed (VNE) of 120mph or less. A glassed or reinforced airframe is capable of higher speeds but I will leave that level of performance to pilots who have the resources ($) to push speed limits.
Now that I have a set of performance parameters I am confidant that this electric power package will be reliable at the flying field as it is less load than the best previous prop used, the APC 26-15Electric which had a max current load of 165amps. It has taken me a full year and 70 flights to get to this point.
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Old 03-03-2015, 02:53 PM
  #3462  
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I got tired of waiting for the weather to warm up, so I built a paint booth in my garage and got the bottom grey painted today. I couldn't have gone any better or easier. My harbor freight hplv gun with the mods worked flawlessly and the paint mixing formula through Roy Vailancort worked pretty well. I practiced on cardboard a few weeks ago and finally have some time off to paint.
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Old 03-03-2015, 02:59 PM
  #3463  
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My booth cost $62 due to the fact I didn't own a box fan that was needed to evacuate the booth. $42 in plastic, tape, and filters. Works very well. Also grabbed a refrigerator box from home depot.

I use old 12 pack soda boxes to hold my paint gun. Works perfectly!
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Old 03-03-2015, 03:11 PM
  #3464  
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Tomorrow will be Army green on the top and I'm doing a close rendition to Ding Hao! with personalized nose art. I made up some insignia white for the stripes and the nose and now I realized I need a brilliant white. So much for the time spent matching colors....
Old 03-03-2015, 03:38 PM
  #3465  
mark IX
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SJhanc, so let me try and summarize:
The motor: RIMFIRE 65cc.
Battery: 12s 1p (2-6 cell packs in series) GensAce 5300mah 45c.
ESC: Castle 160HVF.
Gross weight: 28.5 pounds.
Prop: Ramoser VarioProp 22.6

Static Test #1: @ 14 pitch
Watts: Peak 4510
Amps: Peak 119.3
RPM: 4861
Flight Speed: TBD
Mtr Temp: TBD
Flight Time: TBD

Static Test #2: @ 16 pitch
Watts: Peak 3525
Amps: Peak 87.8
RPM: 4200
Flight Speed: TBD
Mtr Temp: TBD
Flight Time: TBD


When do you think you will be able to use the Zinger 4 blade prop? BTW I didn't really understand the problem you had mounting the Zinger 4 blade to the R65 motor. Is the prop hub to thick for the shaft / thread length? Do you have any pics?

Thanx, Mark

Last edited by mark IX; 03-03-2015 at 03:50 PM.
Old 03-03-2015, 08:57 PM
  #3466  
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The Zinger prop and its spinner fits my gas ZDZ 80rv, it will be the power for the H9 P 51 I will be getting as soon as the early buyers find deficiencies it may have. If there are none I will get it sooner. The Zinger prop needs an additional inch of motor shaft for the prop nut because the blade hubs are thicker to accommodate the 16 inch pitch. The Vario prop has small diameter round blade hubs to enable any pitch angle up to about 25 inches. The Vario prop hub thickness is 1 inch no matter what pitch you set. I am initially setting 16 inches as prior experience with large 2 and 3 blade props on an 80cc gas motor and the Rimfire 65cc electric proves that at the thrust levels and rpms I am now getting it will work. I believe that flight testing will show a need to increase pitch beyond 16 inches. All of my prior testing demonstrated very high static thrust with 8-10 in. pitch but low top speed. For instance a ZDZ 80rv turning a 26-10 prozinger delivered 55lbs static thrust and over 100mph level flight on a 25lb. 3d Cap 232, 92 in. wing span. I could take off in 15 feet, go vertical, stop and hover then punch out vertical and do every maneuver I was capable of on an up-line finishing at too high to see. Changing to a 26-12 prop lowered static thrust by 25% and made hovering difficult and also made the plane too fast to be practical. Flying an RC model with large control surfaces at high speeds is asking for flutter. The P 51 with smaller control surfaces can handle faster flight with little risk as long as you don't push the flutter limit by diving to get the highest possible speed. I lost a GS TF P 51 to structural failure by diving it toward a radar gun that read 122mph as the fuselage broke in half at the trailing edge of the wing. And that plane had a 40 cc Fox gas motor with a 20-12 APC prop. It would maybe do 85mph in level flight. I sold a fiberglass and foam P 51 to a friend who fluttered it to death diving vertical to see how fast it would go. It was 1/6 scale I think and had balsa sheeted wings. On its first flight several pilots reported hearing buzzing sounds. It might have been doing 130mph when the ailerons and elevators buzzed off, went completely vertical and left a small crater in a concrete hard stand used by the US NAVY for testing jet engines at Boca Chica NAS. I tallied up the cost of every thing on the current plane and when it went over $4k I almost called Bill to say it was to expensive to fly any more.
Now that I have a baseline for performance with my current setup, weather permitting I should be able report flight performance after the next trip to the Ocala RC field. I am sure that what I am getting will have no problem getting airborne but will be slower than I like. After I get rpm and current data I will begin to increase pitch to get a little more speed. Others I have corresponded with have reported very high top speeds with either of the props I have. My friend Bill, who has been restraining my planes for run-up said after the first Vario prop run that that was the strongest static thrust he had felt of any of my planes. We had to stop straddling the fuse and holding it back with ankles against the horizontal stab because I found compression damage to the leading edge. The last thing I need is to have the plane go ripping into the air from the starting pad with no stabilizer.
Old 03-03-2015, 09:10 PM
  #3467  
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This is the 65cc shaft the machine shop made for me. It is one inch longer on the threaded end to give enough threads for a prop nut on the Zinger 22-16 4 blade. It has a 10-32 threaded hole in the right end for a spinner bolt. The grub screw flats have not been cut yet. It would have worked but for about .0015 inch too much metal cut off the left end. For any standard prop hub thickness it would have worked fine. The fit of the bearings and the motor bell is critical requiring an almost zero clearance at these points. Any excess axial play would cause excessive bell vibration and eventually destroy the motor. I haven't given up on this approach, just need more accurate machining. If I hadn't gone flying in a full scale P 51 C last weekend I would have made more progress by now. I am sure you all understand what gets higher priority when you are having fun- Real plane or RC model of the real plane. My feet are still hovering 3 feet off the ground and after that experience they might never come down.
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Last edited by sjhanc; 03-03-2015 at 09:35 PM.
Old 03-03-2015, 11:11 PM
  #3468  
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To answer a few more of your questions The motor temp never gets over 135f and the ESC reached a peak temp of 98.9f. The Castle 160HVf comes with a fan attached that I connected to Receiver power and seems to be really efficient at controlling ESC temps. I have recorded a 119f ESC temp on one flight on a warm day. The above pictures show the new Vario Prop on the left with the spinner I modified to fit the Zinger four blade which needs large blade cutouts. I already have a new Dave Brown spinner cut for the Varioprop, it has much smaller blade cutouts. With the special prop cut and 10mmx1.25 XXL Vortech nut the cost was close to $90.
In the right picture the funny looking metal duct picks up some air from the chin scoop in the P 51 engine cowl and delivers it to the stagnant area at the top rear of the Rimfire motor. Cooling air flow has to enter from the front, turn 180 degrees, go through the motor back to front, then hit the spinner back plate and turn 180 again to exit through a large hole in the firewall and flow through the fuse to exit the belly scoop exhaust and the tail wheel opening. Motor temps without this duct reached 200f +. After I had the idea to try this dumb looking thing motor temps dropped to 160f. I then shimmed the RimFire motor forward to increase spinner back plate clearance to 1/4 inch. This last mod lowered motor temps to 135f. The duct used is auto heat riser duct from Advance Auto Parts. It is cheap and the cooling effect is very effective even at low speeds and taxiing. I shaped it with my fingers and a round piece of wood and used Gorilla glue to secure the duct to a couple of u-shaped balsa blocks. some of the air is bypassed to cool the ESC which I later mounted to an airply plate below and behind the air duct. Going to the Castle 160HVF from the 120HV meant making a dent in the rear of the duct for ESC clearance but no problems with higher Temps. One last detail is the lower belly sheeting is removed in the picture to cut an exhaust ramp in the firewall for the ESC air. If you look at the belly in the left picture you can see this exhaust port, lined with aluminum duct tape it is almost unnoticeable. I started cutting this exhaust port several p 51s back for muffler cooling and it is effective for that also. The left over tank vent is still in it as is the anti-spark switch for motor battery arming. When I run this plane with a DA 50R I just add the fuel dot to a hole next to the tank vent. These parts are not visible in flight.
Old 03-03-2015, 11:31 PM
  #3469  
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On flight duration I started out with 3 minute flights until I had capacity used info then gradually increased to 5 minutes with a 2 minute reserve for a couple of missed approaches. I could get more duration if I let it poke around the sky and not use much power. I don't think that is much fun. The static run figures I am getting with the four blade are not that much different than with the ProZinger 26-12, an APC 26-15E, or an XOAR 24-14. I also flew it with an XOAR electric 26 I think was a 14 inch pitch that I broke. I can't find it so I may have left it in the crash can at the field. All of these props gave excellent climb and top speeds around 100mph, with the best being the 26-15E.
Old 03-04-2015, 11:16 AM
  #3470  
mark IX
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SJhanc, could you post the pics, here. The attachments are working for me.

Thanx, Mark
Old 03-04-2015, 11:47 AM
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chris923
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Spit,
Picture's i of my Ding Hao.
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Old 03-04-2015, 12:21 PM
  #3472  
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Looks great Chris! I love this scheme as it is less complicated, no aluminum, and represents the early part of the airwar. I wish I had a B model and thought about converting it, but I just couldn't cut up my first giant scale project. (RTC) I am going to go paint the army green now, so I may have pics tonight or tomorrow!
Old 03-04-2015, 02:08 PM
  #3473  
sjhanc
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mark IX,
The second I clicked post quick reply on these two pictures my internet crashed. When I finally got back on line the whole post was gone. By fooling around in advanced it suddenly reappeared so clicked post quick like and it worked the way you see it. I don't know how to change it except to do it again.
Old 03-04-2015, 02:23 PM
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I wasn't sure which of these were attached so I included another. My friends took more than 200 pictures that day and lots of video clips that I have to go through and assemble into usable video files.
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Old 03-04-2015, 06:58 PM
  #3475  
mark IX
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Thx, Steve Isee them now. Nice job on your P-51. That 4 blade really makes the model look good, especially with the "real animal" in the back ground. I have seen Betty Jane many times here in CT and have a ride in it on my bucket list. Man O' Man you really lucked out getting that free ride. You know that costs around 3G's for an hours worth.

Too bad you won't running the Zinger prop with the R65. I think, though, the Vario prop will perform close enough to it so your data will still be apple and apples. I talked to Zinger and he said the blade hub thickness measures out to be 1-3/8" thick and the R65 shaft length is 1-9/16". Not much left for threads. Looks like I'll have to make special nut.


Here's some E-Calc data for a 22x16x4 prop, 12S and 5800 maH, 200 amp ESC and a 24 lb model (my Spitfire):


@ optimum motor efficiency
111 amps
4335 watts
5856 rpm

@ max motor conditions
155 amps,
5733 watts
5442 rpm
4.8 min flight time

Good luck flying with the 4 blade.

Mark

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