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TF 1/5 Scale P-51 ARF Assembly (1ST MISHAP!!!)

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TF 1/5 Scale P-51 ARF Assembly (1ST MISHAP!!!)

Old 04-09-2015, 12:40 PM
  #3551  
sjhanc
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Still no result.
Old 04-09-2015, 12:43 PM
  #3552  
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Now I see it.
Old 04-09-2015, 01:27 PM
  #3553  
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Good video, nice flight.
Old 04-10-2015, 06:10 AM
  #3554  
cordell staker
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I have a set of brand new century jet P 51 retracts for sale that would be perfect for the TF P-51
[email protected]
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Old 04-11-2015, 01:45 PM
  #3555  
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Good video of a good flight. That is some rough terrain you fly over. thanks.
Old 04-11-2015, 11:24 PM
  #3556  
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Default P51-D Sierra gear install





After a long delay, I have returned to install the Sierra gear in the P51. I really burnt out fighting the Century Jet electric gear install so I got a Giant Stik, put a new DA-35 in it and coupled it up to my new JR 28X radio. Been flying the Stik and having a great time, but now it is time to get the P51 finished.

Old electric gear out and the Sierra gear in.

Photo 1 - 5 show the main gear installed in the wing. I made new nut plates which are 1/8" alum, drilled and tapped. The nut plates mount under the alum angle that the gear sets on. The extended forward bolt location will require an epoxied hard wood block and a 3/4" screw to add additional strength to the gear for those less than perfect landings. Running the air lines in through the wing proved to be an interesting endeavor, but with a string and a washer tied on the end was able to feed through the wing, Then I attached a yellow Nyrod to the string and pulled it through. Once I had the Nyrod pulled through I attached the air lines to it and pulled the lines through. One lesson learned was to leave yourself 4 to 6 " of extra air line for that moment when you have to remove the gear for repair or adjustment. Air install is pretty much standard with a air gauge, filler port, tank and control value. It took 6 "T"s and two removable connectors to get it all hooked up, photos next time.


Photos 6 - 12 The tail wheel install was a complete tear out and start over for the Sierra tail wheel. I got the gear and servo mounted on the mounting plate and then wired the the servo pull pull wires up to the control horn. Many trial attempts were accomplished to get the clearance required by the servo control horn and the fuselage . As the tail wheel retracts forward the colored air lines had to be reversed from the pattern on the main gear to get the tail wheel to retract with the mains.
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Last edited by rossmick; 04-12-2015 at 06:33 AM.
Old 04-12-2015, 03:31 AM
  #3557  
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rossmick,
I sent a set of CJ main retracts back to the factory about a year ago. They acknowledged receipt of the package and then never responded to my emails about their status. I can under stand your frustration with this brand. I gave up and bought a new set of ROBARTS.
I had a bad landing with my P 51 2 weeks ago that tested the effectiveness of the wing mods I made. The nose over at the end of the rollout in the rough broke 3 blades and bent 1 strut tube. I found a crack in the glue joint under the gear mount rails but no wing damage. A similar landing last November trashed a stock wing that I still haven't got around to repairing.
Those Sierra gears look like a nice solution.
Old 04-12-2015, 04:36 AM
  #3558  
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Good looking Gear Ross!
Old 04-12-2015, 05:20 AM
  #3559  
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I had Robart retracts, then went to Sierras (main gear only) in my TF GS P-51. The Sierra's worked really well for me. I don't remember having any gear or gear mount problems after I installed the Sierras. I doubt my landings improved with the Sierras, but they could take more of a beating than the Robarts.

Brian
Old 04-12-2015, 07:17 AM
  #3560  
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sjhanc, chris923, aghost

Thanks for the comments. One thing I did not mention was that on the first install of the mains and trial retract the gear shuddered in both directions even with 120 lbs. of pressure in the tank. In some cases they did not complete the cycle, ask me how happy I was about that after the Century Jet debacle . I found the tolerances so tight on the mains that they did not move smoothly even when I removed them and operated them by hand. So with all the experience of taking the Century Jet gear apart, I removed one side of the gear and inserted a .01 shim and put it all back together. Now the gear function perfectly, and I am guessing that when the gear wear in I will be able to remove the shim. Later today I hope to install the gear doors, both main and tail, but that might be a several day task. I want to fly the P51 this weekend in our Warbird event so if the doors prove too problematic I'll just leave them off for the event.
I have Sierra gear in my unfinished Ziroli 120" B-25 and not started Kellog TBF, and from what I see, I will never buy gear from anywhere else. I just hope Sierra gets around to supplying an electric option as I, at this time, prefer the electrics over the air. The gear in the B-25 have an electric conversion by Century Jet and work fine, fingers crossed now on that. But it does seem that on the larger electric drive motors and controller that CJ system works OK. I hope they never break or quit as the customer support is almost non existent at CJ, makes me think to just order an additional set of drive motors and keep them as spares. I have a 'Down and Lock' conversion on the gear in the Corsair and they work well, but are too expensive for what they are.
Old 04-13-2015, 11:29 PM
  #3561  
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Default P51 gear and internals



Spent the day finishing the tail wheel, servo wiring, battery install, fuel tank and lines install, prop and spinner (No cowl on this first flight as the DA 60 has never been run), balancing.
Photo 1 - shows the completed tail wheel install with hatch cover in place - Gears doors for another day.
photos 2 - 4 show internal wiring, airlines and controller, receiver, fuel tank.

LiFe batteries, three of them; one for ignition and two for Smart-Fly board. I really like the LiFe batteries they are much lighter which is a draw back here where I need plenty of weight in the nose. The Smart-Fly board has the ignition cutoff built in, all input are short and cell failure protected, regulated 5.0 volts to receiver, servo power is 6 volts and are fully buffered. If one battery fails or shorts it is dropped and the other battery takes up the load. I really like the idea of battery voltage to the servos without having to go through the receiver. One change is that the old version used Deans connectors for power connection where the latest version uses the standard servo 3 pin connector. I made up a pair of Deans to standard extension cables to connect the battery to the board.

Notice the new foam standoffs which are very handy but need CA to really glue them in place, the sticky film really does not hold for long if at all.
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Old 04-14-2015, 04:45 AM
  #3562  
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rossmick,
I have had to adjust the clearance on my ROBARTS by bending the frame assembly on both sides of the socket head screw to relieve the tightness on the trunion. The bearing plate is riveted into the frame here and seems to distort the frame on some of the retract sets I have purchased. It is not difficult to fix but can be annoying. I guess the price would be double if we had to pay for the quality control we are used to getting in full scale aviation.
My only beef with the electric retracts is the slow retraction speed (much slower than scale) but I guess we can't have every thing.
Old 04-14-2015, 04:57 AM
  #3563  
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rossmick
One thing you should consider when you mount the main gear doors is whether to articulate the doors like scale. When I did this on my plane I had to re-adjust them after almost every flight. After several hundred flights I changed the upper mount from a hinge on the wing skin area to a solid block glued to the door, then attached to the strut with Goop. 2 small slots in the door allow a small tie wrap to go around the door and strut. The tie wrap can be painted to match the door so is not obvious. This arrangement allows the door to move with the strut so landing stress (shocks, grass, etc.) don't knock it out of alignment and cause hung retracts.
Old 04-15-2015, 09:02 PM
  #3564  
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sjhanc

Thanks for the info on the gear doors, I was just going to attach them with the swivel arms off the struct and hinge at the base - looks like plan B.

Just spent the whole day and two 50 mile round trips to the hobby shop to get the installed air system to quit leaking. Admitting this is my first air system install I am sure I have just made all the standard mistakes. Example, when removing the air line from a plastic T do not use the exacto to cut the line. I did that and damaged the T's so that they leaked - trip 1 to get more T's. Using the tried and true soapy spray method I identified all leaks and replaced the damaged T's (4 in all). Here I learned to just pull the line off, and it takes some tugging to get it done. With the air supply (air tank or compressor) attached all was fine, remove the air source and down goes the pressure. So now the bran new Robart Fill valve leaked like a sieve. Trip 2, and this time I picked up a BVM fill value with the recommendation from the turbo guys that it was the best, and voila no more leaks. Just checked after 4 hours and still have the same pressure 100# + pressure - feeling better now. I did take the valve stem out of the Robart and it was not the same as a standard valve stem that I had seen, no O ring on the stem but saw it down in the fill barrel. Appears to me that BVM has the advantage here as it is insert air line, turn on air, and pull line when finished. Next time I think I will look in to BVM T's if there is such a thing.

Question to all - what other surprises can I expect with the air system, also how low should you go before filling? I do have a pressure gauge in the P51 so I can see the pressure, gage agrees with pressure gage on compressor, I also have a 7 gal. portable air tank I filled to 125#s and it seems to work for at least 3 fills before pressure goes under 100, what do you guys use and what is a good procedure?
Old 04-16-2015, 04:11 AM
  #3565  
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ON the t's, they frequently have a small bit of slag attached to the inside that can come loose and plug the holes preventing gear retraction. I stopped using the plastic t's because they are hard to stop from leaking. I replaced them all with the brass t. I run a number drill through them to clean out the solder slag and blow them clean with high pressure air. (computer air cans from Wal-mart work good). I lube the cylinders with Marvel air tool oil. The ROBART valves need special care as the nipples are glued and pressed into the valve body along with the adjuster needles. Any stress will crack the glue and the valve can't be repaired. ROBART has been good about warrantee replacement of leaky valves. If you try to adjust them for scale retraction speed they will be too slow with air loads on the gear and may fail to complete the travel and lock. 120 psi is about as high as you can use on hot days, more may cause the lines to pop off. I always top the pressure before each flight. They will go up 6-8 times reliably and come down and lock 12+ times. When adjusting the ROBART valve needles use low strength thread locker on the needle threads and gently tighten the lock nuts to prevent cracking the glue.
I always assemble the entire system and dunk it in a bucket of water to check for leaks. if you remove an air line from a nipple you must cut a small piece off the air line because the plastic tubing will stretch slightly at the nipple, make the installed air lines with a loop of slack for future maintenance.
Old 04-16-2015, 04:16 AM
  #3566  
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I use a small tire air compressor from Wal-Mart and a model painting air compressor (works best). They both run on 12 volts.
Old 04-16-2015, 07:22 AM
  #3567  
rossmick
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sjhanc

I did replace two of the T's with brass as a test, but I did not clean them out as you have suggested. After looking at things I will use all brass T's in the future. At this point I will leave things as is rather than tear it all down again. I did think to cut the ends off each line when I pulled them off. The compressor I have I use for emergency tire pressure for the dually and the 5th wheel so it is very heavy duty 12v and will take a standard battery down fairly quickly if the engine is not running. No big deal but I will have to bring the plane to the compressor or a heavy battery to the plane, I will try the portable tank and see how that works. Your dunking method is the best but I drill holes in the bulkheads and feed the lines through them so pre testing is not an option without dismantling sections. The valve is manufactured by Sierra I think as it came with the gear and I will use extreme caution if I adjust the rate valves. Thanks again for all the helpful information.

Should finish all items today, minus the gear doors, and test run and fly the plane tomorrow. If all goes well should have it operational for the Fly in event this weekend. Looks like at least several days to get the gear doors installed. I will wait until I strip and glass the plane to try the true scale gear door arrangement, looks like quite a challenge with the center line doors.

Last question for today, do you need elevator down trim when the flaps comes down and how much? There is no information in the manual and most planes require some amount of down elevator so I though I would ask.
Old 04-16-2015, 09:11 AM
  #3568  
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The popular myth is down trim with flaps. If you drop the flaps at speeds higher than about 40 mph it will zoom climb briefly then as speed gets down to approach speed it will go nose down requiring up trim. I drop the gear first at about 40% throttle, lower 1/2 flaps then full flaps a few hundred feet from the turn to the base leg. at this point trim for level flight and adjust the throttle to maintain level flight. Make your turns using a little bank and a lot of rudder. It will lose altitude in the turns and it should come out of the turn to final at 25- 40 feet alt. Then lower the nose to point at the touchdown spot. level the fuse at 6 inches to 1 foot and as it touches reduce throttle a click. It will slow gradually and as the tail drops take out a little more throttle. If you cut the throttle to idle at any speed the prop will blank the tail controls then you are along for the ride. Ground loops are usually the result of cutting power prematurely.
If you assembled the front end using the stock thrust built into the firewall it will climb with increased power and drop when power is reduced. I never liked this tendency so adjusted my thrust angles to decrease down thrust and increase right thrust. My planes track straight ahead regardless of power settings. I had to fill the stock holes and redrill to recenter the cowl and spinner. The washer stack I ended up with is like this;
Top right 1 washer
top left 3 washers
bottom right 4 "
bottom left 5 "
I have used this stack with 4 planes and it has given me consistent results.
My elevator up trim settings are 25% with flaps at 20 degrees down and 32% at 47 degrees down. I use a military break at 75 feet over the runway, cut power and drop gear on the turn out to the downwind and full flaps after it slows. I have to use a little down elevator until the speed decreases then it is hands off until the turns. The ailerons are not effective at slow speeds and over use can cause adverse yaw and a possible snap. If
you need turning power add throttle and more rudder and it will come right around. I always use the 20 degrees of flaps with up trim on take off even on hard top runways. It will fly off with out a need to rotate when flying speed is reached, throttle is usually about 55% at lift off and hold this during the climb until you get the gear up. My elevator trims are mixed with the flaps and I have added the gear to the flaps using flight modes so only 1 switch needs to be used for takeoff, high speed flight, and landing.
Using the stock thrust angles it has an annoying tendency (if trimmed for level flight with flaps) to drop the nose on power up to go around and will fly into the ground so watch for this.
I hope this doesn't confuse you. If your plane grosses less than 23 lbs. the pitch change with throttle is less noticeable. It gets progressively worse as the weight goes up. I need as much help as I can get so worked hard to tame the slow speed handling.

Last edited by sjhanc; 04-16-2015 at 09:31 AM.
Old 04-16-2015, 01:06 PM
  #3569  
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There are three TF P51s including mine in our club and the flaps have no affect when deployed.
Old 04-16-2015, 01:29 PM
  #3570  
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They do a have an affect, if you deploy at too high of a speed the plane will "balloon up". If you deploy them too late at a slow speed, you can stall. If you see no effect, them you are deploying them correctly. If you fly into a 15-20 mph wind you do not need the flaps to land. If you are in a 10 mph or less wind you will need flaps to slow to a landing speed with enough power to land with out stalling unless you have 1000ft to land on.

I would say you are using them correctly.
Old 04-16-2015, 01:43 PM
  #3571  
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Old 04-16-2015, 04:28 PM
  #3572  
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Originally Posted by chris923
They do a have an affect, if you deploy at too high of a speed the plane will "balloon up". If you deploy them too late at a slow speed, you can stall. If you see no effect, them you are deploying them correctly. If you fly into a 15-20 mph wind you do not need the flaps to land. If you are in a 10 mph or less wind you will need flaps to slow to a landing speed with enough power to land with out stalling unless you have 1000ft to land on.

I would say you are using them correctly.
I don't deploy at high or low speed..so I guess I,or we since there are two more, are deploying more or less at the right time.Now my P47 is totally different,pitches up drastically at most any speed.
Old 04-16-2015, 04:49 PM
  #3573  
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Interesting reading about the retract air problems. My experience was totally different. At least a half dozen different planes over 10+ years and only once did an air retract not deploy. My fault because I forgot to check for leaks in the up position. Mostly Robart valves, but a couple of others also. Sierra, CJ, Robart retracts. Mostly Robart tubing and plastic tees. I put 10 -15 drops of oil in the air system a couple of times a year.

To check for leak I put air line extensions between the wing and fuse so I could watch the oil move in the lines. The oil heads right for the leak. May have to add a few extra drops of oil. Use forceps to block off different sections of line to zero in on the leak.

Brian
Old 04-16-2015, 07:28 PM
  #3574  
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Originally Posted by cordell staker
I have a set of brand new century jet P 51 retracts for sale that would be perfect for the TF P-51
[email protected]
Would it fit Aero Works mustang ? I have the original ones that came with it and it's leaking
Old 04-18-2015, 08:41 PM
  #3575  
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At the end of last summer's flying season I discovered that the electric Down and Locked (Robart) landing gear on my Top Flite 1/5 scale P-51C would not operate correctly. They would only retract if the DLE 55 RA engine was running below 1/3 throttle. They worked okay other than that. I spent the next few months trying to find out the reason.

I tested or replaced every part or extension I could think of without any change. I was thinking it might be a vibration problem but no matter what I checked the problem persisted. I finally decided to change the engine ignition. Bingo!! The gear retracted at all throttle settings today.

The picture below shows what I discovered. Where the ignition spark plug wire passed through the firewall the metal braiding on the wire was worn thru. Apparently the hole allowed RF noise to interfere with either the Down and Locked control box or the radio receiver on the retract channel.

I'm posting this in hopes that It might save someone from spending all the time I spent trying to solve a problem that I thought was in the retracts when it was in the ignition instead.

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