ESM 50CC with DLE-55R engine heating problems
08-19-2013, 09:27 AM
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ESM 50CC with DLE-55R engine heating problems
I have an ESM 50CC Spitfire with the DLE-55R Eng. and I'am having overheating problem that I cannot seen to find the answer for. It will run great with out the Cowl on. When I put the cowl on it will run for approx. 3 or 4 minutes and then overheat. Now Y have the Bottom of the Cowl completely cut out from the front to the firewall and the complete cylinder is exposed. I also took the plate with a weight that was strapped to the top , so as not to block any space for hot air to escape , next I cut a 2x21/2'' rectangle on top of the cow above the carb, hopping that would also let more hot air out , i made a 1/32 piece of fiber glass and drilled 90 holes in it and tried to make it look like a panel. This also did not work. it runs for 3 to 5 minutes and then overheats and I have tried to keep rich up the fuel mixture, I'am using a 32 to 1 oil mix and a 22z10 prop and turning approx. 6000 rpm. ANY ONE HAVE ANY MORE IDEAS I CAN TRY . PLEASE SOME HELP.
08-19-2013, 11:49 AM
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I have the complete bottom of the cowl cut away from the front to the firewall , the cool air flows completely around the engine from the front past and over the exhaust . The problem only seems to exist with the rear muffler and rear carb. combination. I talked to trio built and they just told me to fly with the cowl off and that neither they or the factory cannot help. . This is why I cut a 2' by 2 1/2' opening above the carb on the top of the cowl , hoping that would either help suck hot air out or force cool air in. The problem seems to be that the hot muffler blocks any chance for hot air to escape the bottom of the cowl. I do not think the guys with the side mounted mufflers are having any problems because there is no muffler to block the carb. I 'am sorry I bought this combination , but they advertise it that way. My buddy is also having the same problem with the rear muffler and carb on his DLE -55R.
08-19-2013, 12:55 PM
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I will never but from them again. This is actually the 2nd. cylinder and piston on this engine after 3 tanks of gas and 2 flights. The last flight they claimed it was my fault that the engine burned up . I had to dead stick it in , it ran the whole flight and when i went into the last turn it quit. I paid them because he said it was not covered under warranty because it was my fault and they put a new cylinder and piston and ring and I have not been able to fly the plane since. That plane should not be sold with that combination. The DLE or any side mounted muffler would probably work with the rear carb .I even offered to bring the plane to them for them to check it out when ever he could and he told me there is nothing he could do. Great service. Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.
08-19-2013, 05:30 PM
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Check out the thread on proper engine cooling by "pe reivers" in the Gas Engines forum. It seems like you are a little misled on engine cooling theory. You are likely dealing with a high pressure area under the cowl that is prohibiting air from actually exiting. It won't matter how many holes you hack into it. If there is not an area of low pressure somewhere near those holes you will effectively have zero cooling. Have you tried a simple air dam in front of one of the exit holes? You would be surprised how much of a difference that can make.
Here's a link to that thread.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/gas-...t-results.html
Here's a link to that thread.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/gas-...t-results.html
Last edited by irocbsa; 08-19-2013 at 05:35 PM.
08-19-2013, 05:43 PM
#7
You don't need huge holes in a cowl for proper cooling...but you do need good baffling. All the air coming into the cowl should be forced to pass through the engine cooling fins and then allowed to escape.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfSv0V7r4HA
http://www.troybuiltmodels.com/ns/le...g-easy-how-to/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfSv0V7r4HA
http://www.troybuiltmodels.com/ns/le...g-easy-how-to/
08-19-2013, 05:51 PM
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08-19-2013, 06:00 PM
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The bottom of the cowl is completely open there is plenty of cool air going around the cylinder. I have now cut and made a scoop that is raised up above the cowl and goes down to the carb to force cool air around the carb. This kills the whole streamline look of the Spitfire, but i figured i would try that next . Like I said before i have no problem with my Top Flite P-40 with the DLE 55 side exhaust , there is nothing to block the air around the carb. This is just a bad set up by ESM. Worse case , I will have to change engines and also order a new cowl because of all the cut outs. Man I hate that air scoop on top.
08-19-2013, 06:04 PM
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You have what I have been saying a side exhaust works but the rear exhaust does not. I have a couple of mustangs and they all have side exhaust with the wrap around muffler and have no problem. This is what the ESM Spitfire needs.
08-19-2013, 11:17 PM
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MASTERMODEL my friend i have the SAME model (esm spitfire 50cc) with the SAME engine (dle 55 ra) with the SAME problem as you have!!!
Problem isnt from inadequate engine cooling. i have my cylinder out like you have and it gets enough fresh air. i have meauserd engine temp and its ok.
Problem seems to come from the combination of rear exhaust with rear carb as you said before and you are right.
Symptoms are exactly the same as in your case. While without cowling engine runs fine but when you put it on, engine seems to rise temp, but its not!
something has to do with the combination of hot air from exhaust coming to the carb. i had another engine before to that plane EME 55 CC version II with side exhaust and engine DIDNT have any problem at all!! what i did was to put some kind of balsa baffling between carb and exhaust like the fellow in post 8 and i also created a vent line from carb to the inside of plane body for a steady pressure reference point. i havent flown plane yet because its very windy here, but motor seems to work fine that way with plane cowling on it. i will inform quite soon, i hope!!
Problem isnt from inadequate engine cooling. i have my cylinder out like you have and it gets enough fresh air. i have meauserd engine temp and its ok.
Problem seems to come from the combination of rear exhaust with rear carb as you said before and you are right.
Symptoms are exactly the same as in your case. While without cowling engine runs fine but when you put it on, engine seems to rise temp, but its not!
something has to do with the combination of hot air from exhaust coming to the carb. i had another engine before to that plane EME 55 CC version II with side exhaust and engine DIDNT have any problem at all!! what i did was to put some kind of balsa baffling between carb and exhaust like the fellow in post 8 and i also created a vent line from carb to the inside of plane body for a steady pressure reference point. i havent flown plane yet because its very windy here, but motor seems to work fine that way with plane cowling on it. i will inform quite soon, i hope!!
08-20-2013, 02:35 AM
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Masteromodel
Reading your thread brought back many nightmares. I have the same set up except a side exit exhaust. My first few flights were dead sticks due to over heating! There was then a series of flights with no cowl perfect! I don't think your problem is your rear exhaust as I run a Pitts muffler the can would be in about the same position. From the start I used baffles to direct air flow through the cylinder I was careful to allow some air around the crankcase I exhausted this out through the scale exhaust. I enlarged the entry till I could see the barrel fully! Confident I fitted it back on to the aircraft next flight another dead stick and another hot engine!!!!! Bugger!!!!! A timely article in our club magazine alerted me to the issue of getting the air out as a result I fitted a small air dam to the cowl the result perfect!!! A small mod a big result
Hope this helps regards Chris
Reading your thread brought back many nightmares. I have the same set up except a side exit exhaust. My first few flights were dead sticks due to over heating! There was then a series of flights with no cowl perfect! I don't think your problem is your rear exhaust as I run a Pitts muffler the can would be in about the same position. From the start I used baffles to direct air flow through the cylinder I was careful to allow some air around the crankcase I exhausted this out through the scale exhaust. I enlarged the entry till I could see the barrel fully! Confident I fitted it back on to the aircraft next flight another dead stick and another hot engine!!!!! Bugger!!!!! A timely article in our club magazine alerted me to the issue of getting the air out as a result I fitted a small air dam to the cowl the result perfect!!! A small mod a big result
Hope this helps regards Chris
08-20-2013, 05:31 AM
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The bottom of the cowl is completely open there is plenty of cool air going around the cylinder. I have now cut and made a scoop that is raised up above the cowl and goes down to the carb to force cool air around the carb. This kills the whole streamline look of the Spitfire, but i figured i would try that next . Like I said before i have no problem with my Top Flite P-40 with the DLE 55 side exhaust , there is nothing to block the air around the carb. This is just a bad set up by ESM. Worse case , I will have to change engines and also order a new cowl because of all the cut outs. Man I hate that air scoop on top.
08-20-2013, 07:52 AM
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With the cylinder head completely exposed the air has to flow through the fins . It is not the cooling of the fins, I think like one of the other post is to get the carb suck cool air and the cool the crankcase. i'am finishing up blending in the scoop and then I will open the front exhaust stacks to let hot air escape from the crankcase. Also try a bigger opening in the tube in the firewall .I have built other ESM kits and they all have problems especially with their engineering , but this is the worst combination of engine and cowl set up and with the service that i 'am getting I will never buy from them again. They should not be offering this as the good combination of engine and kit. They know they are having problems and have not and will not try to correct it. They actually told me that the factory does not listen to them.
08-20-2013, 08:34 AM
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My camera is not working, but just picture the whole bottom of the cowl cut from the front to the firewall , with the head completely exposed . The cool air has nowhere to go but through the fins and also around it. The rear muffler covers the rear carb. , so you have a a hot muffle right next to the carb. The carb is trying to suck cool air into it and there is no way for any cool air to get to the carb from the bottom. So now I cut a hole in the top of the cowl and bent a piece of aluminum to make an air scope to suck cool air straight to the carb. Next I will cut out the front 3 exhaust stacks on both sides to let hot air trapped around the crankshaft to let some hot air out around the crank case. If this does not work then I will have to use a different engine setup. I will use something with a side exhaust and carb or a side exhaust and rear carb. I hope this gives you a picture in your head. But for now I will have an ugly airscope on top of the cowl that screws up the looks of the Spitfire.
08-20-2013, 10:43 AM
#20
another friend of mine has exactly the same problem with dle 35 ra and esm hawker typhoon. he hasnt maidened his plane yet but i will let you know what he is going to do to solve his problems as soon as possible. strange thing is that he has the same engine dle 55 ra in an ESM BF 109 that i have maidened myself with minimal cowl cutting (except two or three head fins-the owner of the plane hates cowl cutting!!) and plane flies with no problems!
i insist that its not an engine heating problem but probably a carb mixture-hot air problem. As i said before, the first time problem appeared i believed it was a head heating problem, so i opened hi end valve a half turn more than factory settings but engine couldnt work either. i also measured engine temp with a probe and it was at about 70-75 degrees during half throttle.
i insist that its not an engine heating problem but probably a carb mixture-hot air problem. As i said before, the first time problem appeared i believed it was a head heating problem, so i opened hi end valve a half turn more than factory settings but engine couldnt work either. i also measured engine temp with a probe and it was at about 70-75 degrees during half throttle.
Last edited by dgiatr; 08-20-2013 at 10:48 AM.
08-20-2013, 11:00 AM
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Is there a problem with cutting air exits in the firewall and letting the air flow through the fuse?
What's going on is you are building HI PRESSURE Inside the cowl. So NO real air FLOW to speak of. Take the cowl off and the air flows from a radius behind the engine.
Think of it this way.. Turn on a Hose and block the end. You will have high pressure in the hose but no flow. You need the out side LO pressure on the other side of the hose end to have flow. Air is the same way, it acts like a fluid.
What's going on is you are building HI PRESSURE Inside the cowl. So NO real air FLOW to speak of. Take the cowl off and the air flows from a radius behind the engine.
Think of it this way.. Turn on a Hose and block the end. You will have high pressure in the hose but no flow. You need the out side LO pressure on the other side of the hose end to have flow. Air is the same way, it acts like a fluid.
08-20-2013, 12:01 PM
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Bob the rear carb faces the front of the fuselage and I have a large hole cut into the firewall to let the hot air go into the tube and into the fuselage. I already made that air scoop and also cut the exhaust stacks open and I will try this first. I think it is the hot air going over the crankcase and not having anywhere to go but towards the carb, that it is causing the problem the fit is very tight with the cowl around the crankcase so I think it is helping to trap the hot air and after 3 to 5 minutes the hot air that the carb is sucking is causing the problem . With the exhaust cut open and the air scope going directly to the carb , I'am hoping this solves it. Just like the real P-40 and the Early p-51's they had an air scoop on top to direct cool air to their carbs.
08-20-2013, 12:03 PM
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I have the DLE 55RA mounted in the Great Planes Reactor 50cc. I ran one tank of gas thru it without the cowl and everything ran fine, however as I was refueling it I noticed gas being forced back into the tank from the carb line. After fueling it would not pull fuel into the carb. This is known as vapor lock as the fuel in the carb is heated it expands and if hot enough into a vapor, it has to go somewhere so back to the tank it went. After cooling down it will work normally for about 3 to 4 minutes then shut down. I placed a baffle of .032 aluminum between the muffler and carb from the rear of the crankcase to the firewall. It worked until I put the cowl on, same problem. I have a nice large opening in the front of the cowl and air is directed thru the fins and out the bottom, however to aleviate the problem I cut 1/4" air inlet slots in the cowl on either side of the spinner on the pointed areas. This allowed air to flow over the top of the engine and past the carb keeping the heat in the bottom. I also replaced the carb assembly as there were trash or millings in the carb jet rifling that could not be removed. I got mine from Tower and they were very responsive to the problem and sent me the entire carb assembly with carb, reeds and heat block. It is running well and does not over heat, but check your fuel line and see if it is back flowing, if it is it is causing a lean mixture and gets worse as it continues to run. Good luck but get some cool air over the carb and block it off to keep the heat down below and out of the cowl.
08-20-2013, 02:49 PM
#25
Like the picts I posted in # 9 clearly shows baffle directing heat from cyl. and muffler directly out of cowl, the soft mount is built with wide open sides so static air can get to carb which will be cooler than whats going through the cyl. fins, also prevents vapor lock in fuel line. Head temps for these engines should be around 90 to 115 degrees, Judging from what I seen you have ample opening in front of cowl and increasing discharge size with the added baffle as I have shown and your problem should be gone. Also make sure there is no air restriction to carb that can lean it out. There are many narrow cowling planes out there and they all have the same heat problems that baffles will cure.