P-51 Mustang Brotherhood
06-08-2014, 11:48 AM
#455
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A few years ago the Planes of Fame had a Mustang gathering at their annual airshow. As I recall there was over 20 Mustangs in attendance and they put up about 15 of them in a loose string formation where they played tail chase around the airfield. It was an awesome sight and sound. Here are some Mustang pics from that show as well as a few other Chino airshows for you Mustang fans.
Last edited by Chad Veich; 06-08-2014 at 11:50 AM.
07-19-2014, 08:28 AM
#458
Quick question to you mustang flyers. When coming in for landing, how much rudder control do you have? With my 4*, LT-40, Twin Otter, and T-34 when I push left rudder it will yaw left, and when right yaw right, but it seems as though the P-51 had very little visible rudder control. Only at 3/4 to full could I actually turn it with rudder, and it was a large turn, and I didn't need to counter bank with ailerons like I do with all the others. Just wondering if its normal or just this particular rudder is not setup right. I put it in the dirt due to lack of rudder control in a crosswind at half throttle. I tried to do a go around and dumb thumb the elevator. Boy does it do a beautiful snap and loop.
07-19-2014, 01:35 PM
#460
I wish I had the patience to resize and load pictures here but if you want a sneak peek at the H-9 60cc there's pics up here...
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=373
Short version is, I love it. Very stable, effective flaps, easy to land, and the E-Flite retracts have been flawless.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=373
Short version is, I love it. Very stable, effective flaps, easy to land, and the E-Flite retracts have been flawless.
07-19-2014, 01:52 PM
#461
My Feedback: (5)
[QUOTE=acdii;11844443]Quick question to you mustang flyers. When coming in for landing, how much rudder control do you have? With my 4*, LT-40, Twin Otter, and T-34 when I push left rudder it will yaw left, and when right yaw right, but it seems as though the P-51 had very little visible rudder control. Only at 3/4 to full could I actually turn it with rudder, and it was a large turn, and I didn't need to counter bank with ailerons like I do with all the others. Just wondering if its normal or just this particular rudder is not setup right. I put it in the dirt due to lack of rudder control in a crosswind at half throttle. I tried to do a go around and dumb thumb the elevator. Boy does it do a beautiful snap and loop.[/QUOTE
Need a lot more info about the specific mustang, its speed, engine type, rpm and prop info to answer why this happened. Rudder needs airflow to be effective to make a pure rudder turn, and if the airflow was not too high due to airspeed and/or airflow from engine rpm and prop then it would not turn as quickly, but my mustangs have turned with rudder when there is airspeed and/or airflow from the prop. Compared to some planes (aerobatics and trainers) they probably dont turn as quickly using rudder unless you have a lot of rudder movement. Mine have always turned much more effectively using ailerons than rudder. Too much turning at low speeds especially if you have a high torque engine and hit the throttle can cause a snap into the ground but the newer mustangs all have washout in the wings which minimizes this. Adding a lot of elevator can cause a snap into the ground as well,especially at low speeds. The cg is also important.
If your only previous planes were sporterized planes and you were flying a close to scale mustang you would probably do well to have an experienced scale warbird pilot show you the proper way to fly a close to scale mustang.
Sorry you had a bad experience.
Ed
Need a lot more info about the specific mustang, its speed, engine type, rpm and prop info to answer why this happened. Rudder needs airflow to be effective to make a pure rudder turn, and if the airflow was not too high due to airspeed and/or airflow from engine rpm and prop then it would not turn as quickly, but my mustangs have turned with rudder when there is airspeed and/or airflow from the prop. Compared to some planes (aerobatics and trainers) they probably dont turn as quickly using rudder unless you have a lot of rudder movement. Mine have always turned much more effectively using ailerons than rudder. Too much turning at low speeds especially if you have a high torque engine and hit the throttle can cause a snap into the ground but the newer mustangs all have washout in the wings which minimizes this. Adding a lot of elevator can cause a snap into the ground as well,especially at low speeds. The cg is also important.
If your only previous planes were sporterized planes and you were flying a close to scale mustang you would probably do well to have an experienced scale warbird pilot show you the proper way to fly a close to scale mustang.
Sorry you had a bad experience.
Ed
07-19-2014, 09:11 PM
#466
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sorry guys.. you're all wrong... fastest in WW2 list here..
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircr...d-by-speed.asp
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircr...d-by-speed.asp
07-20-2014, 01:27 AM
#467
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07-20-2014, 06:28 AM
#468
[QUOTE=rc34074;11844562]
Top Flight 60 ARF with a Saito 100 spinning a MAS 14X8. It was full flap and gear down, half throttle, had the right amount of speed on it, but a full crosswind. It was sliding south and even full rudder it had no crab effect. At higher speeds like 3/4 and full throttle I could turn it with rudder, though it was a rather large turn. I would expect some crabbing with full rudder, which is why I asked. My first two flights with it had good landings, airspeed all the way down was good, but was landing into the wind with no cross winds. Since the Saito is a powerhouse, that with me pulling up too quick is what caused the crash, I knew it the moment it happened and all I could do was hope there was enough room to pull out, but needed 2 more feet for that. Left aileron and not pulling up would have been the correct thing to do, but you know what they say about hindsight.
What I found about this particular model, is half throttle and pulling back on the stick too quick results in a snap roll. It is less likely to do it at full throttle. At half it has decent speed to climb with flaps and gear up, with full flaps and gear down at half it maintains level flight so I have a slight down elevator mixed in with flaps, which lets it glide in real nice, the cross wind is what got me.
So one this plane, flying aileron instead of rudder in a cross wind would be better?
Quick question to you mustang flyers. When coming in for landing, how much rudder control do you have? With my 4*, LT-40, Twin Otter, and T-34 when I push left rudder it will yaw left, and when right yaw right, but it seems as though the P-51 had very little visible rudder control. Only at 3/4 to full could I actually turn it with rudder, and it was a large turn, and I didn't need to counter bank with ailerons like I do with all the others. Just wondering if its normal or just this particular rudder is not setup right. I put it in the dirt due to lack of rudder control in a crosswind at half throttle. I tried to do a go around and dumb thumb the elevator. Boy does it do a beautiful snap and loop.[/QUOTE
Need a lot more info about the specific mustang, its speed, engine type, rpm and prop info to answer why this happened. Rudder needs airflow to be effective to make a pure rudder turn, and if the airflow was not too high due to airspeed and/or airflow from engine rpm and prop then it would not turn as quickly, but my mustangs have turned with rudder when there is airspeed and/or airflow from the prop. Compared to some planes (aerobatics and trainers) they probably dont turn as quickly using rudder unless you have a lot of rudder movement. Mine have always turned much more effectively using ailerons than rudder. Too much turning at low speeds especially if you have a high torque engine and hit the throttle can cause a snap into the ground but the newer mustangs all have washout in the wings which minimizes this. Adding a lot of elevator can cause a snap into the ground as well,especially at low speeds. The cg is also important.
If your only previous planes were sporterized planes and you were flying a close to scale mustang you would probably do well to have an experienced scale warbird pilot show you the proper way to fly a close to scale mustang.
Sorry you had a bad experience.
Ed
Need a lot more info about the specific mustang, its speed, engine type, rpm and prop info to answer why this happened. Rudder needs airflow to be effective to make a pure rudder turn, and if the airflow was not too high due to airspeed and/or airflow from engine rpm and prop then it would not turn as quickly, but my mustangs have turned with rudder when there is airspeed and/or airflow from the prop. Compared to some planes (aerobatics and trainers) they probably dont turn as quickly using rudder unless you have a lot of rudder movement. Mine have always turned much more effectively using ailerons than rudder. Too much turning at low speeds especially if you have a high torque engine and hit the throttle can cause a snap into the ground but the newer mustangs all have washout in the wings which minimizes this. Adding a lot of elevator can cause a snap into the ground as well,especially at low speeds. The cg is also important.
If your only previous planes were sporterized planes and you were flying a close to scale mustang you would probably do well to have an experienced scale warbird pilot show you the proper way to fly a close to scale mustang.
Sorry you had a bad experience.
Ed
What I found about this particular model, is half throttle and pulling back on the stick too quick results in a snap roll. It is less likely to do it at full throttle. At half it has decent speed to climb with flaps and gear up, with full flaps and gear down at half it maintains level flight so I have a slight down elevator mixed in with flaps, which lets it glide in real nice, the cross wind is what got me.
So one this plane, flying aileron instead of rudder in a cross wind would be better?
07-20-2014, 07:25 PM
#470
My Feedback: (5)
[QUOTE=acdii;11844878]
Top Flight 60 ARF with a Saito 100 spinning a MAS 14X8. It was full flap and gear down, half throttle, had the right amount of speed on it, but a full crosswind. It was sliding south and even full rudder it had no crab effect. At higher speeds like 3/4 and full throttle I could turn it with rudder, though it was a rather large turn. I would expect some crabbing with full rudder, which is why I asked. My first two flights with it had good landings, airspeed all the way down was good, but was landing into the wind with no cross winds. Since the Saito is a powerhouse, that with me pulling up too quick is what caused the crash, I knew it the moment it happened and all I could do was hope there was enough room to pull out, but needed 2 more feet for that. Left aileron and not pulling up would have been the correct thing to do, but you know what they say about hindsight.
What I found about this particular model, is half throttle and pulling back on the stick too quick results in a snap roll. It is less likely to do it at full throttle. At half it has decent speed to climb with flaps and gear up, with full flaps and gear down at half it maintains level flight so I have a slight down elevator mixed in with flaps, which lets it glide in real nice, the cross wind is what got me.
So one this plane, flying aileron instead of rudder in a cross wind would be better?
My experience with the top flite 60 size is from more than a decade ago with the kit built early gold edition version. this plane did turn better with ailerons but the amount of crosswind and how much you needed/were trying to correct to line up with the runway are key factors. Plus they probably made some changes to the plane when they set up the arf production.
Mine did turn better with ailerons on approach but I was pretty cautious with any corrections on approach as this was my first step up from a Midwest sporterized 60 size mustang and it was my pride and joy. I flew mine with a super tiger g90 engine and an apc 14-6 prop so the torque effect was less at throttle up than the Saito has (i ran the Saito 100 in a later 60 size from Hangar 9 with a 14-8 apc prop).
I used only about 2/3 of the recommended elevator travel on mine and i used 30% exponential as well to make the elevator less touchy when flaring. I gradually went a bit further making turns when on approach but the main thing I did was to practice going around time after time, And so if I had any doubt my standard reaction was to do a go around if my approach wasnt very good. How close I ever came to duplicating your experience I dont know but I didnt have that happen. Plus i flew mine 95% of the time at my own field so I was real comfortable in that environment.
So with all this I cant say for sure why yours did what it did but I beleive you had the cg slightly too far back as mine would descend on approach without mixing in down elevator. I cant recall where the cg was on mine but I probably had it forward of their recommended location a little (1/4 inch maybe?) I am sure others will chime in here to offer their experiences and comments and since i havent flown the arf version I might be wrong here.
Ed
Top Flight 60 ARF with a Saito 100 spinning a MAS 14X8. It was full flap and gear down, half throttle, had the right amount of speed on it, but a full crosswind. It was sliding south and even full rudder it had no crab effect. At higher speeds like 3/4 and full throttle I could turn it with rudder, though it was a rather large turn. I would expect some crabbing with full rudder, which is why I asked. My first two flights with it had good landings, airspeed all the way down was good, but was landing into the wind with no cross winds. Since the Saito is a powerhouse, that with me pulling up too quick is what caused the crash, I knew it the moment it happened and all I could do was hope there was enough room to pull out, but needed 2 more feet for that. Left aileron and not pulling up would have been the correct thing to do, but you know what they say about hindsight.
What I found about this particular model, is half throttle and pulling back on the stick too quick results in a snap roll. It is less likely to do it at full throttle. At half it has decent speed to climb with flaps and gear up, with full flaps and gear down at half it maintains level flight so I have a slight down elevator mixed in with flaps, which lets it glide in real nice, the cross wind is what got me.
So one this plane, flying aileron instead of rudder in a cross wind would be better?
Mine did turn better with ailerons on approach but I was pretty cautious with any corrections on approach as this was my first step up from a Midwest sporterized 60 size mustang and it was my pride and joy. I flew mine with a super tiger g90 engine and an apc 14-6 prop so the torque effect was less at throttle up than the Saito has (i ran the Saito 100 in a later 60 size from Hangar 9 with a 14-8 apc prop).
I used only about 2/3 of the recommended elevator travel on mine and i used 30% exponential as well to make the elevator less touchy when flaring. I gradually went a bit further making turns when on approach but the main thing I did was to practice going around time after time, And so if I had any doubt my standard reaction was to do a go around if my approach wasnt very good. How close I ever came to duplicating your experience I dont know but I didnt have that happen. Plus i flew mine 95% of the time at my own field so I was real comfortable in that environment.
So with all this I cant say for sure why yours did what it did but I beleive you had the cg slightly too far back as mine would descend on approach without mixing in down elevator. I cant recall where the cg was on mine but I probably had it forward of their recommended location a little (1/4 inch maybe?) I am sure others will chime in here to offer their experiences and comments and since i havent flown the arf version I might be wrong here.
Ed
07-21-2014, 05:26 AM
#471
My Feedback: (9)
acdii, i use lift vectoring. bank into the wind. reason is simple, our field has crosswind always from the same direction. so at the end of the year all the struts are bent from landing in a crab. I’m kind of in a quandary because i was taught to take crab out before touch down, and it makes the initial touch much smoother, but weather i remove crab or not the struts look the same end of year. in the down wind turn with flaps you want to keep the bank as shallow as possible and use rudder to bring the nose around the turn.
Joe
Joe
07-21-2014, 09:31 AM
#472
I started off with some down mix before the first flight as recommended by others, so not sure what it would do with neutral elevator with full flaps, I do know it would dive if I released the stick, and it only had something like 10 % down, barely even noticeable. The plane felt good in all aspects too with the CG, though I might move the battery forward a touch if I can, its in the tail, and no other dead weight has been added to it. I flew it the first two times with no cowl, and it liked to climb, which indicated a slight tail heavy plane, but it landed great both times into the wind, this was my first cross wind experience with it and the cowl was on, which put the balance right at 5 3/8", just a little behind what others were flying this one at, 5 1/4". I erred on caution and it did fly quite well. With the cowl on it flew straight and level, tracked nicely through a loop, the only quirk it has is that danged snap roll at certain times, I had done it at least 3 other times prior to this but way up high so I recovered it quickly, so I knew exactly what I did to cause the crash, but my biggest concern is what appears to be lack of rudder at landing speeds. Once I get it back in the air I will go up high and see what it takes to duplicate the snap roll so I will know how to avoid it in the future, and I am also going to increase the rudder throw beyond what the book says, I like rudder, and not having that control makes me a sad puppy.
07-21-2014, 10:08 AM
#473
My Feedback: (5)
I will add that I never put flaps down until I was on final and certainly would never put them down when going down wind. But then I made the final turn quite a ways out with the gear down and with the plane at less than 1/2 throttle and lower altitude than some others make that final turn. this kept the speed up which bleeds off during my fairly long final approach - I also used a lot less flap than many other warbird pilots - maybe 1/2 flaps or so maximum compared to many. this makes the plane less likely to stall and didnt make the nose drop much. So I had no concern about using ailerons, and the plane was a lot less likely to be blown around by wind gusts. Worked for me but then I am a self taught warbird pilot - there were no warbird pilots within 50 miles of me when I started flying mustangs 20 years ago. When I went to other fields to fly there were warbird pilots who shook their heads at the way I landed but I ALWAYS brought mine home undamaged - at least after I got rid of those stupid plastic frame robart retracts that Top Flite recommended and replaced them with Spring Air retracts which were (and still are) MUCH stronger and much more reliable than the plastic frame Robarts. The only damage I ever had was the plastic frames would stretch and break on a less than prefect landing. Sometimes i wish I had kept that plane but I sold it.
Ed
Ed
