P-51 Mustang Brotherhood
04-01-2015, 07:17 PM
#602
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Alright David several questions,
1. Since you are using 2.4 its highly unlikely you are getting interference but for the sake of debate let say that you do, first in what manner are you connecting the throttle servo to the throttle arm? If you are using straight music wire from the servo all the way to the carb then the music wire could be sending the ignition noise all the way back to the servo which then in turn takes that noise to the receiver and then you will see some or a few or one servo "wiggle".
I think you should try this to see if you are getting interference, next time you do your idle and see the aileron wiggle turn off just the plane radio and see if the aileron still wiggles, if it does then you could be seeing what should be harmonic shock sent from the engine thru the airframe to the aileron to make it wiggle to what you see that could be seen as interference because if the engine is not running all that smoothly the rough run nature of the engine is sending that vibration thru the airframe and affect the aileron in the way that you are seeing.
Now what you then need to do is that you want to go back to my question of how you are connected the throttle to the carb. I hope that you are using some kind of plastic or nyrod to go from the servo to the engine carb this is the first step to keep interference at the engine spark plugs and not the radio system in the plane. Second step is to make very sure that you have a minimum of 12 inches of nyrod from servo to the carb but more is better, the further away the throttle servo is from the engine the better or less chances the servo will "hear" interference from the spark ignition to take back to the receiver and then the rest of the radio system.
In the video I see that there is a muffler that connects both of the exhaust systems, is this accurate? Is this the original exhaust of this engine or is it home made exhaust? The only engine I find is a 3W 110 inline twin and unfortunately they really don't show the exhaust for this engine but one picture shows a header and not a block exhaust that you are using. In some cases 2 stroke engines cant and don't like to share exhaust with each other but I don't have experience with this so I cant confirm. Next what spark plugs are you using? There are a lot of gas engine users that talks very highly of using NGK CM-6 spark plugs so you may want to consider this in case you are not using these spark plugs.
That is all that I can think of at this time so maybe other modelers can chime in as well. Work on it a little bit then step back and think about it you will figure it out.
Robert L.
1. Since you are using 2.4 its highly unlikely you are getting interference but for the sake of debate let say that you do, first in what manner are you connecting the throttle servo to the throttle arm? If you are using straight music wire from the servo all the way to the carb then the music wire could be sending the ignition noise all the way back to the servo which then in turn takes that noise to the receiver and then you will see some or a few or one servo "wiggle".
I think you should try this to see if you are getting interference, next time you do your idle and see the aileron wiggle turn off just the plane radio and see if the aileron still wiggles, if it does then you could be seeing what should be harmonic shock sent from the engine thru the airframe to the aileron to make it wiggle to what you see that could be seen as interference because if the engine is not running all that smoothly the rough run nature of the engine is sending that vibration thru the airframe and affect the aileron in the way that you are seeing.
Now what you then need to do is that you want to go back to my question of how you are connected the throttle to the carb. I hope that you are using some kind of plastic or nyrod to go from the servo to the engine carb this is the first step to keep interference at the engine spark plugs and not the radio system in the plane. Second step is to make very sure that you have a minimum of 12 inches of nyrod from servo to the carb but more is better, the further away the throttle servo is from the engine the better or less chances the servo will "hear" interference from the spark ignition to take back to the receiver and then the rest of the radio system.
In the video I see that there is a muffler that connects both of the exhaust systems, is this accurate? Is this the original exhaust of this engine or is it home made exhaust? The only engine I find is a 3W 110 inline twin and unfortunately they really don't show the exhaust for this engine but one picture shows a header and not a block exhaust that you are using. In some cases 2 stroke engines cant and don't like to share exhaust with each other but I don't have experience with this so I cant confirm. Next what spark plugs are you using? There are a lot of gas engine users that talks very highly of using NGK CM-6 spark plugs so you may want to consider this in case you are not using these spark plugs.
That is all that I can think of at this time so maybe other modelers can chime in as well. Work on it a little bit then step back and think about it you will figure it out.
Robert L.
04-01-2015, 08:03 PM
#603
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Thanks for the recommendations.
The throttle servo is 13+" back from the Carb and the arm is nyrod. I also made sure to run all the Ignition wires on the opposite side of the plane from the servo wires and main batteries.
Following 3W recommendations I installed all ignition wires, switches and control devices at least 4+" from the receiver. (Or so I thought) but now after taking a second look I realized that 'Yes" I placed the first ignition device 4+" from the receiver body, but then proceeded to place a "remote" receiver right in the middle. Who knows what I was thinking and I will move that to the opposite side tonight.
I checked the plugs and they are not NKG and I just happen to have 2 NGK CM-6 spark plugs so I will also install them tonight.
These two changes I think are respectable enough to try again. I don't like to make allot of changes at once, I prefer adjusting a couple of things and testing vs. changing allot of stuff and not knowing what worked or not.
I am surprised that only the one Flap servo is jumping but at least its noticeable and If this solves the problem it will be obvious.
P-51 Back in the Hanger - The Owners Ken and Barbie Mattel stopped by to see the progress..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9EiBjBaSQg
The throttle servo is 13+" back from the Carb and the arm is nyrod. I also made sure to run all the Ignition wires on the opposite side of the plane from the servo wires and main batteries.
Following 3W recommendations I installed all ignition wires, switches and control devices at least 4+" from the receiver. (Or so I thought) but now after taking a second look I realized that 'Yes" I placed the first ignition device 4+" from the receiver body, but then proceeded to place a "remote" receiver right in the middle. Who knows what I was thinking and I will move that to the opposite side tonight.
I checked the plugs and they are not NKG and I just happen to have 2 NGK CM-6 spark plugs so I will also install them tonight.
These two changes I think are respectable enough to try again. I don't like to make allot of changes at once, I prefer adjusting a couple of things and testing vs. changing allot of stuff and not knowing what worked or not.
I am surprised that only the one Flap servo is jumping but at least its noticeable and If this solves the problem it will be obvious.
P-51 Back in the Hanger - The Owners Ken and Barbie Mattel stopped by to see the progress..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9EiBjBaSQg
Last edited by simple; 04-01-2015 at 08:06 PM.
04-03-2015, 07:59 AM
#604
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I had better luck yesterday with the engine, Tim Cardin stopped by and tuned the needles to start really breaking it in and I traced the ignition RF issue to a servo reverser or bad Y in the system. I replaced them both and so far I have not seen the jumping anymore but more testing is needed.
I found another gremlin to day. The brand new ,expensive, slow to get here in the mail 50oz Rototank failed and leaked gas. I was right there when it happened and flipped the plane and found the cap of the tank starting to pop off from pressure and vibration. Not a big deal, but after seeing the design of the tank I plumbed and installed my old Dubro 50oz and ran the engine 20 minutes later. I thought roto's were fail proof - wrong! attached is a photo of how I found it.
More testing planned for today and I plan on taking it out to Black Star and running the engine until the batteries die. HV system batteries respond way differently, I have been watching my 5600 7.4 4 cells as I do the testing and after several days of testing they started showing in the low 7s. Today I looked down and they were dropping through 6,5,4, and finally as it was coming up on the 3s I shut it down.
I have never witnessed lypos reach the end of charge and drop - its faster than I thought. The 3W books say for break-in run engine 2 or 3 hours with 30 to 1 oil using a small prop and 200 RPM. Cylinder temps should get to 180 to really start seating. Tim recommends that during the 2 hour break in to Start it, let it Heat UP and then Stop & Cooldown several times.
I plan to run it cowl off and cowl on to test the rear cylinder cooling so its going to be a long dirty day. I am still working out a way to transport this thing in the Dodge.
I found another gremlin to day. The brand new ,expensive, slow to get here in the mail 50oz Rototank failed and leaked gas. I was right there when it happened and flipped the plane and found the cap of the tank starting to pop off from pressure and vibration. Not a big deal, but after seeing the design of the tank I plumbed and installed my old Dubro 50oz and ran the engine 20 minutes later. I thought roto's were fail proof - wrong! attached is a photo of how I found it.
More testing planned for today and I plan on taking it out to Black Star and running the engine until the batteries die. HV system batteries respond way differently, I have been watching my 5600 7.4 4 cells as I do the testing and after several days of testing they started showing in the low 7s. Today I looked down and they were dropping through 6,5,4, and finally as it was coming up on the 3s I shut it down.
I have never witnessed lypos reach the end of charge and drop - its faster than I thought. The 3W books say for break-in run engine 2 or 3 hours with 30 to 1 oil using a small prop and 200 RPM. Cylinder temps should get to 180 to really start seating. Tim recommends that during the 2 hour break in to Start it, let it Heat UP and then Stop & Cooldown several times.
I plan to run it cowl off and cowl on to test the rear cylinder cooling so its going to be a long dirty day. I am still working out a way to transport this thing in the Dodge.
04-03-2015, 08:06 PM
#605
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I had better luck yesterday with the engine, Tim Cardin stopped by and tuned the needles to start really breaking it in and I traced the ignition RF issue to a servo reverser or bad Y in the system. I replaced them both and so far I have not seen the jumping anymore but more testing is needed.
I found another gremlin to day. The brand new ,expensive, slow to get here in the mail 50oz Rototank failed and leaked gas. I was right there when it happened and flipped the plane and found the cap of the tank starting to pop off from pressure and vibration. Not a big deal, but after seeing the design of the tank I plumbed and installed my old Dubro 50oz and ran the engine 20 minutes later. I thought roto's were fail proof - wrong! attached is a photo of how I found it.
More testing planned for today and I plan on taking it out to Black Star and running the engine until the batteries die. HV system batteries respond way differently, I have been watching my 5600 7.4 4 cells as I do the testing and after several days of testing they started showing in the low 7s. Today I looked down and they were dropping through 6,5,4, and finally as it was coming up on the 3s I shut it down.
I have never witnessed lypos reach the end of charge and drop - its faster than I thought. The 3W books say for break-in run engine 2 or 3 hours with 30 to 1 oil using a small prop and 200 RPM. Cylinder temps should get to 180 to really start seating. Tim recommends that during the 2 hour break in to Start it, let it Heat UP and then Stop & Cooldown several times.
I plan to run it cowl off and cowl on to test the rear cylinder cooling so its going to be a long dirty day. I am still working out a way to transport this thing in the Dodge.
I found another gremlin to day. The brand new ,expensive, slow to get here in the mail 50oz Rototank failed and leaked gas. I was right there when it happened and flipped the plane and found the cap of the tank starting to pop off from pressure and vibration. Not a big deal, but after seeing the design of the tank I plumbed and installed my old Dubro 50oz and ran the engine 20 minutes later. I thought roto's were fail proof - wrong! attached is a photo of how I found it.
More testing planned for today and I plan on taking it out to Black Star and running the engine until the batteries die. HV system batteries respond way differently, I have been watching my 5600 7.4 4 cells as I do the testing and after several days of testing they started showing in the low 7s. Today I looked down and they were dropping through 6,5,4, and finally as it was coming up on the 3s I shut it down.
I have never witnessed lypos reach the end of charge and drop - its faster than I thought. The 3W books say for break-in run engine 2 or 3 hours with 30 to 1 oil using a small prop and 200 RPM. Cylinder temps should get to 180 to really start seating. Tim recommends that during the 2 hour break in to Start it, let it Heat UP and then Stop & Cooldown several times.
I plan to run it cowl off and cowl on to test the rear cylinder cooling so its going to be a long dirty day. I am still working out a way to transport this thing in the Dodge.
I know Don from J&l Products personally. I know he will replace your tank at no charge. I know at least 30 flyers that use his tanks including myself, (8 planes). This is the first one I have seen fail without being involved in a crash.
04-04-2015, 10:13 PM
#607
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Lifer, your seeing the tank as I found it after fuel was leaking out. I am sure these are good tanks and the positive word of mouth is why I bought this one, I just got a bad one. This looks like it was starting while I was running the engine so I am mostly attributing it to vibration but I have seen pressures related to fuel expanding and gassing cause the same thing.
I wanted to fly this for an event so I wanted to start breaking in the motor. I am sure I can get a replacement and will.
I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4K65NXIOKM
I wanted to fly this for an event so I wanted to start breaking in the motor. I am sure I can get a replacement and will.
I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4K65NXIOKM
Last edited by simple; 04-05-2015 at 01:04 AM.
04-13-2015, 10:38 AM
#608
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Test Flight Day all done.
A couple of minor issues to contend with but otherwise both flights went well.
The first flight was Gear Down, a connection was loose and the on-board fail-safe kept the gear down so I mostly just did slow go-arounds, the second flight I lost a gear door in a shallow diving speed test but otherwise everything was perfect!
I will go through it the next couple of days looking for vibration issues and replace the gear door. I should have it back in the air by Wednesday and really put it through the paces.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAQyMSSNzIo
A couple of minor issues to contend with but otherwise both flights went well.
The first flight was Gear Down, a connection was loose and the on-board fail-safe kept the gear down so I mostly just did slow go-arounds, the second flight I lost a gear door in a shallow diving speed test but otherwise everything was perfect!
I will go through it the next couple of days looking for vibration issues and replace the gear door. I should have it back in the air by Wednesday and really put it through the paces.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAQyMSSNzIo
04-24-2015, 08:27 AM
#610
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Ok,
Gremlins and More Gremlins.
Turns out there is a failing ignition module during the previous flight. Upon return to the field for a second series of test flights the #2 Cylinder will not fire and the RF issue will return this time effecting not only left side Flaps, but Elevator and Aileron. Flight test aborted and new ignition modules are ordered.
I will install a new ignition system consisting of two separate modules on separate power supplies. The first video is of the test flight of the new ignitions in which two issues arise.
a. Number #2 cylinder begins to misfire after a high speed roll. (issue - bad hall sensor lead wire wrapped in shrink tubing will separate in the G-Load)
b. The adverse vibration of single cylinder operation loosens the muffler bolts and the idle speed increases beyond safe landing rpm.
I will need a couple of go-a-rounds to land and use the ignition kill to stop it.
During this test a new radio is being used and the Expo settings are too low for the High Voltage servos, the on-board 3-Axis gyro is activated to help stabilize the flight so testing can continue.
.. https://youtu.be/2PEgqP-L9TQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PEgqP-L9TQ&feature=youtu.be
Gremlins and More Gremlins.
Turns out there is a failing ignition module during the previous flight. Upon return to the field for a second series of test flights the #2 Cylinder will not fire and the RF issue will return this time effecting not only left side Flaps, but Elevator and Aileron. Flight test aborted and new ignition modules are ordered.
I will install a new ignition system consisting of two separate modules on separate power supplies. The first video is of the test flight of the new ignitions in which two issues arise.
a. Number #2 cylinder begins to misfire after a high speed roll. (issue - bad hall sensor lead wire wrapped in shrink tubing will separate in the G-Load)
b. The adverse vibration of single cylinder operation loosens the muffler bolts and the idle speed increases beyond safe landing rpm.
I will need a couple of go-a-rounds to land and use the ignition kill to stop it.
During this test a new radio is being used and the Expo settings are too low for the High Voltage servos, the on-board 3-Axis gyro is activated to help stabilize the flight so testing can continue.
.. https://youtu.be/2PEgqP-L9TQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PEgqP-L9TQ&feature=youtu.be
Last edited by simple; 04-24-2015 at 08:37 AM.
04-24-2015, 08:48 AM
#611
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Success!!!
The Hall sensor leads are replaced, the expo settings increased on the radio and during this flight no gyro is used. First start to finish no issue test flight!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qys-z-f8QKw
The Hall sensor leads are replaced, the expo settings increased on the radio and during this flight no gyro is used. First start to finish no issue test flight!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qys-z-f8QKw
Last edited by simple; 04-24-2015 at 09:29 AM.
04-24-2015, 01:08 PM
#613
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Before I parked it the last flight ended in a blown rear cylinder, thrown prop and blown spinner that took out the canopy and produced shock damage all the way back to the tail. For allot of years I have been hauling the wing bolts for this thing in my flight box knowing if I ever took them out I would give up entirely. Last year I decided to give it another go and gutted it down to nothing but bare bones and started all over.
The previous rear cylinder cooling attempts all met with the recommended cooling design standards however, eventually they failed to produce the type of air flow this plane needs. This time I threw out the manual on twin inline cooling and started from scratch with a hybrid design of my own that has finally seemed to produce results.
I ran this on the ground for over one hour cowed and stationary at low to medium rpm during engine break in and not once did either cylinder show indications of overheating. It is an older engine design and bringing this back with all new state of the art equipment and building materials has been a learning curve and challenge to say the least, but this last flight finally got it done and now I can move on to the next challenge.
If all I ever get is that last flight I'm ok with it, but I hope more are still to come and there is still one or two more little things I want to do it that are just for builder fun that have no impact on flying. Its time for the next P-51 Brother to post their project
Thanks for watching, commenting, recommending and supporting. I consider this a team build as labor, parts, advice and council came from all corners of the world and was welcomed.
Last edited by simple; 04-24-2015 at 01:22 PM.
04-25-2015, 04:29 AM
#614
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Simple,
This has been a great thread to follow with much good information. I have one of these 3W beauties NIB and was actually thinking about using the Rockwell color sceme as well. As I remember, the cooling of the rear cylinder
has also been a problem for other owners of this plane and it seems that you have figured it all out.
Great job in seeing this challenging project to a successful end.
paul
This has been a great thread to follow with much good information. I have one of these 3W beauties NIB and was actually thinking about using the Rockwell color sceme as well. As I remember, the cooling of the rear cylinder
has also been a problem for other owners of this plane and it seems that you have figured it all out.
Great job in seeing this challenging project to a successful end.
paul
04-25-2015, 06:26 AM
#615
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question thinking about building a 51 this next build season. Out of the available plans what ones would be closest to scale? I was looking at the ziroli set but was just wondering if there is some thing better. Phil
05-14-2015, 12:35 AM
#616
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Hello all, please add me to the P-51 brotherhood. I have a very unique, brand new and never flown 35 year old Byron P-51.
I purchased this from the second owner 6 years ago and I'm just getting around to completely overhauling said machine.
The glass work, and finish paint is unfortunately awful, so I'm going to strip the finish, sand like crazy, and resolve the glass work issues.
The machine has a Q35 on the Byro drive, I'm replacing the Q35 with a Q42, and a new set of blades from Iron Bay. New servos,
and an updated installation for ailerons and flaps will complete the project. I'm evaluating the retracts and air system to see
what needs to be updated. This promises to be quite the project. I'm thinking about documenting the rebuild.
More to come I'm sure!
Cheers,
TJ
I purchased this from the second owner 6 years ago and I'm just getting around to completely overhauling said machine.
The glass work, and finish paint is unfortunately awful, so I'm going to strip the finish, sand like crazy, and resolve the glass work issues.
The machine has a Q35 on the Byro drive, I'm replacing the Q35 with a Q42, and a new set of blades from Iron Bay. New servos,
and an updated installation for ailerons and flaps will complete the project. I'm evaluating the retracts and air system to see
what needs to be updated. This promises to be quite the project. I'm thinking about documenting the rebuild.
More to come I'm sure!
Cheers,
TJ
05-16-2015, 12:40 PM
#617
Just got back from the swap meet at our club and managed to score a new in box TF GS P-51 for $400!
Not even the tape on the bags was molested. Goes to show good deals can still be found just gotta go looking.
Not sure what the plan is yet but for sure a DLE 55RA is going in.
Thats Mustang #4 for me, now do I get a brotherhood member number?! Lol
TF GS P-51D from a kit
TF GS P-51D ARF
TF 60 P-51D ARF
Aerotech all carbon fiber P-51D kit (not Aeroworks)
Not even the tape on the bags was molested. Goes to show good deals can still be found just gotta go looking.
Not sure what the plan is yet but for sure a DLE 55RA is going in.
Thats Mustang #4 for me, now do I get a brotherhood member number?! Lol
TF GS P-51D from a kit
TF GS P-51D ARF
TF 60 P-51D ARF
Aerotech all carbon fiber P-51D kit (not Aeroworks)
Last edited by Chris Nicastro; 05-16-2015 at 02:15 PM.
05-16-2015, 04:19 PM
#618
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Just got back from the swap meet at our club and managed to score a new in box TF GS P-51 for $400!
Not even the tape on the bags was molested. Goes to show good deals can still be found just gotta go looking.
Not sure what the plan is yet but for sure a DLE 55RA is going in.
Thats Mustang #4 for me, now do I get a brotherhood member number?! Lol
TF GS P-51D from a kit
TF GS P-51D ARF
TF 60 P-51D ARF
Aerotech all carbon fiber P-51D kit (not Aeroworks)
Not even the tape on the bags was molested. Goes to show good deals can still be found just gotta go looking.
Not sure what the plan is yet but for sure a DLE 55RA is going in.
Thats Mustang #4 for me, now do I get a brotherhood member number?! Lol
TF GS P-51D from a kit
TF GS P-51D ARF
TF 60 P-51D ARF
Aerotech all carbon fiber P-51D kit (not Aeroworks)
Mustang Brotherhood #1 hasn't been on in awhile. Maybe he will sign in a give you a number. I think there are several others in older post needing numbers also.
05-16-2015, 04:53 PM
#619
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I got a few good flights today on my TF P51D with DLE55 and a scale exhaust. This is an old beat up plane, but we managed to get a radar gun on it. A very respectable
97mph!
This a old photo.
This a old photo.
09-27-2015, 09:42 PM
#621
Flights 7,8&9 today and its builder Leroy was able to come out to watch it go. Solid plane and a pleasure to fly.
Practiced a formation flying with a buddy and his H9 P-47 with a DLE 40 twin.
My plane was caught on radar at 90-98mph with the early DLE 55 so if it had the RA version Im sure it would have been good to break 100mph.
Practiced a formation flying with a buddy and his H9 P-47 with a DLE 40 twin.
My plane was caught on radar at 90-98mph with the early DLE 55 so if it had the RA version Im sure it would have been good to break 100mph.
09-28-2015, 03:14 AM
#623
Couple more flights on the Red Baron. Bumped the flight time up to 5 minutes and still have a little reserve left in the batteries..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKavOtcX8V4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiY_mkAKCVU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKavOtcX8V4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiY_mkAKCVU
Last edited by TheRickster; 09-28-2015 at 03:16 AM.
10-07-2015, 04:59 PM
#625
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Here's mine to add to the list. It started out as a 1/5 giant scale Top Flight ARC, but I converted it to a B model using the Leo Spychalla rear deck and his scale cowling. It also has the following:
- Tony Howard scale manifold kit
- Aerotech wheels and doors (inner and strut doors)
- Dynamic Scale cockpit kit (masters)
- ZDZ 80 RVJ with 26 x 10 or 24 x 14 prop
- 5.5 inch spinner
- custom Bisson muffler inside the fuse
- whole model is fibreglassed
- panel lines built into the primer
- inner wing structure reinforcements
- Aeroloft marking kit
- retractable tail wheel with doors
- JR 8611 and 8411 digital servos on the flight controls
- inner door sequencer
- JR gyro on the rudder
- aluminum colour paint is Krylon Metallic dull aluminum and scuffed with 0000 steel wool...looks amazing!
It has about 15 flights and flys very nicely with a great sound. I am very happy with it. Next is some weathering and adding some gun barrels.
Jeff
- Tony Howard scale manifold kit
- Aerotech wheels and doors (inner and strut doors)
- Dynamic Scale cockpit kit (masters)
- ZDZ 80 RVJ with 26 x 10 or 24 x 14 prop
- 5.5 inch spinner
- custom Bisson muffler inside the fuse
- whole model is fibreglassed
- panel lines built into the primer
- inner wing structure reinforcements
- Aeroloft marking kit
- retractable tail wheel with doors
- JR 8611 and 8411 digital servos on the flight controls
- inner door sequencer
- JR gyro on the rudder
- aluminum colour paint is Krylon Metallic dull aluminum and scuffed with 0000 steel wool...looks amazing!
It has about 15 flights and flys very nicely with a great sound. I am very happy with it. Next is some weathering and adding some gun barrels.
Jeff
Last edited by JDjetjock; 10-13-2015 at 06:47 PM.
