P-38 Lightning Brotherhood
01-18-2015, 07:58 PM
#926
My Feedback: (5)
Hi All,
Just a couple points of information, please. Have "we" collectively decided the scale aircraft prop rotation produces a MORE critical flight envelope than the opposite counter-rotation configuration? My Robart P38J (post #167) is currently being modified to counter-rotating props when I come up with the $$ for a new counter-rotating DA85. Now I need to decide on which side I will run which motor!?
BTW. To answer a previous post, I found Xoar (Just Props vendor) provides a service to cut matched pairs of Counter rotating props. I have in my possession a very nice set of laminated wood 24x12 3 bladers- one left and one right hand rotating. Not cheap, but I couldn't find a less expensive option. Now I also have to acquire another pair of Tru-Turn spinners for the new counter rotating prop set! The two existing, conventional, rotating 3 blade spinners are now surplus. (Anyone need a pair of Ziroli sized spinners cut for 3 bladed Mejlic's?)
BREAK BREAK
I have been also been investigating 3 axis Gyro's to see if they can give us a few seconds more grace after an engine failure in our Beloved 38s. As any who have had the "pleasure" of losing an engine in a model 38, I for one would rather NOT discover I've lost an engine AFTER my model snap rolls and enters a flat spin. Has ANYONE heard whether Gyro's will help us Twin Flyers during single engine emergencies??? The Jet guys are all over the latest gyro tech, (just browse their Forum) but I have no idea whether we can get some worthwhile help from installing a state-of-the-art gyro in out 38's. I know the gyro's work great for smoothing out small flight perturbations, but I'm clueless whether they can be set up to handle the radical yaw and roll resulting from heavy asymmetric thrust. The Twin Synch was reported to be a partial solution to this problem, but of the 3-4 Z P38 drivers I've met and personally discussed their experiences regarding the Twin Synch, most all have claimed it caused more problems than it was worth. 'Course I don't know whether they had a proper install, but most of these folks were at the top of their game when it came to flying large complex single and mult-engine warbird models. I've given them the benefit of the doubt regarding their technical expertise.
Sure hope we can come up with a reasonable solution to the normal End of most P38s. I for one have a serious vested interest in finding a solution, no matter how odd it may initially seem.
Listening now, intently.
TTFN
Just a couple points of information, please. Have "we" collectively decided the scale aircraft prop rotation produces a MORE critical flight envelope than the opposite counter-rotation configuration? My Robart P38J (post #167) is currently being modified to counter-rotating props when I come up with the $$ for a new counter-rotating DA85. Now I need to decide on which side I will run which motor!?
BTW. To answer a previous post, I found Xoar (Just Props vendor) provides a service to cut matched pairs of Counter rotating props. I have in my possession a very nice set of laminated wood 24x12 3 bladers- one left and one right hand rotating. Not cheap, but I couldn't find a less expensive option. Now I also have to acquire another pair of Tru-Turn spinners for the new counter rotating prop set! The two existing, conventional, rotating 3 blade spinners are now surplus. (Anyone need a pair of Ziroli sized spinners cut for 3 bladed Mejlic's?)
BREAK BREAK
I have been also been investigating 3 axis Gyro's to see if they can give us a few seconds more grace after an engine failure in our Beloved 38s. As any who have had the "pleasure" of losing an engine in a model 38, I for one would rather NOT discover I've lost an engine AFTER my model snap rolls and enters a flat spin. Has ANYONE heard whether Gyro's will help us Twin Flyers during single engine emergencies??? The Jet guys are all over the latest gyro tech, (just browse their Forum) but I have no idea whether we can get some worthwhile help from installing a state-of-the-art gyro in out 38's. I know the gyro's work great for smoothing out small flight perturbations, but I'm clueless whether they can be set up to handle the radical yaw and roll resulting from heavy asymmetric thrust. The Twin Synch was reported to be a partial solution to this problem, but of the 3-4 Z P38 drivers I've met and personally discussed their experiences regarding the Twin Synch, most all have claimed it caused more problems than it was worth. 'Course I don't know whether they had a proper install, but most of these folks were at the top of their game when it came to flying large complex single and mult-engine warbird models. I've given them the benefit of the doubt regarding their technical expertise.
Sure hope we can come up with a reasonable solution to the normal End of most P38s. I for one have a serious vested interest in finding a solution, no matter how odd it may initially seem.
Listening now, intently.
TTFN
01-19-2015, 12:15 PM
#927
Aye, Matey! I'm afraid you've pried open Pandora's Box on that one!
There's a lot of opinion out there, but scientific data is precious hard to come by in the world of model P-38's
During WWI, they had some problems with the 38 (understatement!) as well as other twins and they researched counter-rotating props in every imaginable configuration. There's a great story about Doolittle coming to an airbase and showing them how to fly engine-out B-25's, which at one point was nick-named the "Flying Coffin," or somesuch, because of a propensity to auger in when they lost an engine. His conclusion: "all you need is a good pilot who is prepared."
Anyway, they tried P-38's different ways and finally settled late in the war on counter-rotator left, but review photos and you'll seem them different set-ups. I have heard that the counter-rotator left had something to do with less turbulence over the tail and not p-factor, which would seem to argue for counter-rotator right.
As you know, I have flown (and crashed) many P-38-s over the last 14 years: I'm a little obsessed with them :-). The only one with a counter-rotator is my 126" CBA with DA-50's. I think you've seen it fly. I have never had an engine-out with it. When I first set it up, I called the guy who made the kit (and actually put my plane together) and he INSISTED I put the counter-rotator on the left, despite my arguments to the contrary. His argument was that's the way the scale ones were and it helps them track better on take-off. I think we can debunk half that argument: I have never noted a P-38 with difficulty tracking on take-off: I mean, come on! it's tricycle gear!!!
But I put it the way he said and it flies well and rolls well.
As you know, I have put hundreds of flights on P-38's and I have crashed about 5 of them, usually due to engine-out. My "save rate," if you count save as "repairable" is about 50%. I think that's about the average for decent fliers. I have seen much more skilled pilots save P-38 engine-outs, but I have also them completely lose it just as you describe.
Twin Man used to be very active in P-38's and he did some intentional engine-out research with old clutzy gyro's about 12 years ago. Haven't seen any with the newer gyros. Twin Sync has basicall the same idea, but I have personally seen two losses DUE to the TwinSync: sensor falls out, whatever, and installing such a device violates my basic rule for twins: KISS, because the more complex stuff you put on it, the higher likelihood something's gonna fail.
I have also successfully flown probably 2 dozen twins with engine-out: mostly less twitchy birds, like Twin-Airs and P-61's, even my Bf-110. Although the "difficult" engine-out is supposed to be when the right side quits, I can't say as I've noticed a difference and my theory is you can't tell in a model. The secret to success is to fear engine-out every second you're in the air and apply aggressive, correct rudder the instant you're sure there's a problem and keep your airspeed up
. Unfortunately, with P-38's, sometimes you don't have that instant. With P-38's, even the most skilled and attentive pilot is at the mercy of random circumstance like: airspeed, altitude, power setting, dirty or clean profile, distance from the pilot, wind, etc. So, you can summarize my advice about P-38 engine-outs.
THE BEST WAY NOT TO LOSE YOUR P-38 TO ENGINE-OUT IS TO KEEP BOTH ENGINES RUNNING!!!
Sounds simplistic and teleologic, but it's a philosophy that runs deep into building and maintenance techniques. Everything about the powerplants has to be as perfect as you can make it, from the klunk in the tank to the tips of the props. Keep both engines running and a 38 is about as easy to fly as any warbird.
Hard Example: Last summer I lost my last VQ-38. 7 years old, hundreds of flights, no engine-outs. Unseen crack in plastic spinner exploded the backplate off the right engine flying fast and low and I couldn't (didn't) save it
Oh, I have one other plane with counter-rotator on the RIGHT, a 21-year old Duellist with OS .46's. I've had engine-outs on both sides with it: can't really tell the difference between it all my other same-rotator twins
Mark
There's a lot of opinion out there, but scientific data is precious hard to come by in the world of model P-38's
During WWI, they had some problems with the 38 (understatement!) as well as other twins and they researched counter-rotating props in every imaginable configuration. There's a great story about Doolittle coming to an airbase and showing them how to fly engine-out B-25's, which at one point was nick-named the "Flying Coffin," or somesuch, because of a propensity to auger in when they lost an engine. His conclusion: "all you need is a good pilot who is prepared."
Anyway, they tried P-38's different ways and finally settled late in the war on counter-rotator left, but review photos and you'll seem them different set-ups. I have heard that the counter-rotator left had something to do with less turbulence over the tail and not p-factor, which would seem to argue for counter-rotator right.
As you know, I have flown (and crashed) many P-38-s over the last 14 years: I'm a little obsessed with them :-). The only one with a counter-rotator is my 126" CBA with DA-50's. I think you've seen it fly. I have never had an engine-out with it. When I first set it up, I called the guy who made the kit (and actually put my plane together) and he INSISTED I put the counter-rotator on the left, despite my arguments to the contrary. His argument was that's the way the scale ones were and it helps them track better on take-off. I think we can debunk half that argument: I have never noted a P-38 with difficulty tracking on take-off: I mean, come on! it's tricycle gear!!!
But I put it the way he said and it flies well and rolls well.
As you know, I have put hundreds of flights on P-38's and I have crashed about 5 of them, usually due to engine-out. My "save rate," if you count save as "repairable" is about 50%. I think that's about the average for decent fliers. I have seen much more skilled pilots save P-38 engine-outs, but I have also them completely lose it just as you describe.
Twin Man used to be very active in P-38's and he did some intentional engine-out research with old clutzy gyro's about 12 years ago. Haven't seen any with the newer gyros. Twin Sync has basicall the same idea, but I have personally seen two losses DUE to the TwinSync: sensor falls out, whatever, and installing such a device violates my basic rule for twins: KISS, because the more complex stuff you put on it, the higher likelihood something's gonna fail.
I have also successfully flown probably 2 dozen twins with engine-out: mostly less twitchy birds, like Twin-Airs and P-61's, even my Bf-110. Although the "difficult" engine-out is supposed to be when the right side quits, I can't say as I've noticed a difference and my theory is you can't tell in a model. The secret to success is to fear engine-out every second you're in the air and apply aggressive, correct rudder the instant you're sure there's a problem and keep your airspeed up
THE BEST WAY NOT TO LOSE YOUR P-38 TO ENGINE-OUT IS TO KEEP BOTH ENGINES RUNNING!!!
Sounds simplistic and teleologic, but it's a philosophy that runs deep into building and maintenance techniques. Everything about the powerplants has to be as perfect as you can make it, from the klunk in the tank to the tips of the props. Keep both engines running and a 38 is about as easy to fly as any warbird.
Hard Example: Last summer I lost my last VQ-38. 7 years old, hundreds of flights, no engine-outs. Unseen crack in plastic spinner exploded the backplate off the right engine flying fast and low and I couldn't (didn't) save it
Oh, I have one other plane with counter-rotator on the RIGHT, a 21-year old Duellist with OS .46's. I've had engine-outs on both sides with it: can't really tell the difference between it all my other same-rotator twins
Mark
01-19-2015, 06:07 PM
#930
No, a P-38 requires 1/4 to 1/3 throttle to approach and land smoothly/softly, depending on the P-38
A double dead-stick will be a damaging landing, throttles at idle maybe a little better
Try to turn with no power on a 38 and you're askin' for a death spiral.
A P-38 with one dead engine and the other at idle will not pull very crookedly. Of course, as stated above, it won't fly very well, either. The second it drops below critical airspeed, THEN it will spin in.
The only way to save it is to aggressively counter rudder and push the throttle as much as your rudder will control it. The first two or three seconds are gut-wrenching
If the plane is a ways from you, often the hard part is to figure out which engine is gone. For obvious reasons, if you guess wrong, you're done
mt
A double dead-stick will be a damaging landing, throttles at idle maybe a little better
Try to turn with no power on a 38 and you're askin' for a death spiral.
A P-38 with one dead engine and the other at idle will not pull very crookedly. Of course, as stated above, it won't fly very well, either. The second it drops below critical airspeed, THEN it will spin in.
The only way to save it is to aggressively counter rudder and push the throttle as much as your rudder will control it. The first two or three seconds are gut-wrenching
If the plane is a ways from you, often the hard part is to figure out which engine is gone. For obvious reasons, if you guess wrong, you're done
mt
01-20-2015, 07:32 PM
#931
My Feedback: (5)
That's the trouble with a Dead Engine emergency on a P38; knowing that you HAVE one before the critical snap and spin. If you're fortunate enough to be flying ALONE, you may hear the engine fail, but how many of us get a chance to fly alone at one of the big or even small Fly Ins? Another thought I've had is some of the current telemetry options available. Certainly one should be able to monitor each engine RPM and if one drops or quits, I think it's possible to have telemetry notify you with an audible warning of the impending crisis-- perhaps even which engine may have failed? Whad'ya think? Is telemetry cheap enough to add to existing mid-grade 2.4 Transmitters or do we have to buy an 18MZ to get that kinda' capability?
Listening, again.
Listening, again.
01-21-2015, 05:57 AM
#932
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That's the trouble with a Dead Engine emergency on a P38; knowing that you HAVE one before the critical snap and spin. If you're fortunate enough to be flying ALONE, you may hear the engine fail, but how many of us get a chance to fly alone at one of the big or even small Fly Ins? Another thought I've had is some of the current telemetry options available. Certainly one should be able to monitor each engine RPM and if one drops or quits, I think it's possible to have telemetry notify you with an audible warning of the impending crisis-- perhaps even which engine may have failed? Whad'ya think? Is telemetry cheap enough to add to existing mid-grade 2.4 Transmitters or do we have to buy an 18MZ to get that kinda' capability?
Listening, again.
Listening, again.
01-21-2015, 06:07 AM
#933
My Feedback: (43)
I've heard a lot of good comments from online (as well as fellow pilots) about this Cortex 3-axis gyro:
They aren't cheap but if it saves a multi-thousand dollar plane on a 'one engine out', it would be worth it.
I've been thinking about putting them in my 110" F4U and P-47 for take offs and landings on asphalt.
http://www.chiefaircraft.com/bd-cortex.html
They aren't cheap but if it saves a multi-thousand dollar plane on a 'one engine out', it would be worth it.
I've been thinking about putting them in my 110" F4U and P-47 for take offs and landings on asphalt.
http://www.chiefaircraft.com/bd-cortex.html
Last edited by samparfitt; 01-21-2015 at 06:10 AM.
01-21-2015, 05:07 PM
#935
I too think the telemetry makes a lot of sense. Maybe a temp probe, with an audible warning. I'm assuming its reasonable to expect the engine will start running hot before a shutdown, as in running lean. I'm not sure how long a gasser will run lean before shutting down, but I'm thinking that might be the best indication
RPM sensors are another good one. Not sure how you would set it up to trigger an alarm when the RPM delta gets to what point. You may really wrestle with false alarms if engines aren't in sync. Engines not in sync might not be an indication an impending shutdown. The other side or the coin, if you open up the tolerance the alarm triggers, the engine may already be dead. Still useful, but more reactive, than proactive.
Knowing one engine is getting hot would pretty valuable info....IMHO
Very interested to see how this works out.
BTW
For those who remember my crashed Yellow rebuild, its just about ready for panel lines and paint
Thread on RCG.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...2274813&page=3
RPM sensors are another good one. Not sure how you would set it up to trigger an alarm when the RPM delta gets to what point. You may really wrestle with false alarms if engines aren't in sync. Engines not in sync might not be an indication an impending shutdown. The other side or the coin, if you open up the tolerance the alarm triggers, the engine may already be dead. Still useful, but more reactive, than proactive.
Knowing one engine is getting hot would pretty valuable info....IMHO
Very interested to see how this works out.
BTW
For those who remember my crashed Yellow rebuild, its just about ready for panel lines and paint
Thread on RCG.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...2274813&page=3
01-21-2015, 07:24 PM
#937
ragtop: we are holding our breath until you post the maiden on that baby!
llanger: interesting idea for telemetry. Definitely goes against my KISS principles, though. Do you remember the Tom Hanks soliloquy in Apollo 13 where Lovell talks about shutting off all the alarms and flying the plane? Let me know when you're ready to maiden that beastie and we'll take it up to Owatonna and borrow their 1,200 ft runway
!
llanger: interesting idea for telemetry. Definitely goes against my KISS principles, though. Do you remember the Tom Hanks soliloquy in Apollo 13 where Lovell talks about shutting off all the alarms and flying the plane? Let me know when you're ready to maiden that beastie and we'll take it up to Owatonna and borrow their 1,200 ft runway
!
01-21-2015, 07:39 PM
#938
SWORDSN: True, I like flying twins alone and my favorite spotter knows not to talk too much, but not always possible at a meet. Also, a crowd and a crowded flight line can limit some of your approach and risk-taking options during an engine-out. It's good to set that up mentally even before you take off
samparfitt: of all the assist device ideas, I like your gyro the best. Probably the biggest reason I never put one on a twin was I fear the set-up process: how much gain is just enough? Few of us are willing to go up and intentionally engine-out to test it and set it. It's not like an aerobat where you can do 3-D stuff and set the gain where it works but doesn't porpoise. Maybe that process has been modernized since I last flew gyros. We should look up TwinMan's field research with gyros and P-38's. That was at least 10 years ago.
Practically every Mosquito I've ever seen sorely needed a gyro on takeoff!
samparfitt: of all the assist device ideas, I like your gyro the best. Probably the biggest reason I never put one on a twin was I fear the set-up process: how much gain is just enough? Few of us are willing to go up and intentionally engine-out to test it and set it. It's not like an aerobat where you can do 3-D stuff and set the gain where it works but doesn't porpoise. Maybe that process has been modernized since I last flew gyros. We should look up TwinMan's field research with gyros and P-38's. That was at least 10 years ago.
Practically every Mosquito I've ever seen sorely needed a gyro on takeoff!
01-23-2015, 07:37 AM
#939
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Slidell, LA
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kram,
I remember you being pretty happy with your VQ Lightnings. Well, VQ has relabeled as Legend Models and is marketing an updated version thru JB Hobbies. Good thread here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2274566
I'm hoping you and Twin Man might jump-in and share your experiences.
I remember you being pretty happy with your VQ Lightnings. Well, VQ has relabeled as Legend Models and is marketing an updated version thru JB Hobbies. Good thread here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2274566
I'm hoping you and Twin Man might jump-in and share your experiences.
01-23-2015, 10:32 AM
#941
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I have not had an engine out but a question comes to mind about recovery from one. If, and I say if, detected with throttle back wouldn't you want to keep nose down to maintain airspeed then flair into landing. I know that is the ideal situation and almost never encountered with enough altitude/airspeed to accomplish. I ask because when soaring speed is life and flying at minimum sink speed does not cover enough ground to get back to airfield. As others have said, if you can detect it in time.
I have a friend setting up a gyro in a pattern plane and it has taken several flights to get it even close. It is not one of the high end ones like the cortex, so maybe the more expensive ones ould be closer to a usable setting without all the setup flights.
I had hoped to start my new P-38 from JB this week, but my Mother just passed away so my build log is going o have to wait a bit.
I have a friend setting up a gyro in a pattern plane and it has taken several flights to get it even close. It is not one of the high end ones like the cortex, so maybe the more expensive ones ould be closer to a usable setting without all the setup flights.
I had hoped to start my new P-38 from JB this week, but my Mother just passed away so my build log is going o have to wait a bit.
01-23-2015, 11:31 AM
#943
Join Date: Feb 2003
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I normally see Twinman at the flying field early Saturday mornings. We should have good enough weather tomorrow so hopefully he will be out there. I'll let him know about the thread and the new VQ models.
01-23-2015, 08:11 PM
#944
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Just a thought... some of the Spektrum receivers have built-in 3-axis stabilization.
- AS3X® technology — 3 axis stabilization
- Perfect for larger aircraft requiring a 9-channel receiver such as many Hangar 9® models
- Includes (2) remote receivers
- Integrated telemetry provides real time telemetry data (with optional telemetry sensors)
- Programmable from mobile devices (iOS and Android) as well as PCs makes it easy to setup at home or at the field
- Lightweight, compact design
- Three gyro modes allow customization of the gyro performance and feel of the aircraft
- AS3X® technology — 3 axis stabilization
- Perfect for larger aircraft requiring a 9-channel receiver such as many Hangar 9® models
- Includes (2) remote receivers
- Integrated telemetry provides real time telemetry data (with optional telemetry sensors)
- Programmable from mobile devices (iOS and Android) as well as PCs makes it easy to setup at home or at the field
- Lightweight, compact design
- Three gyro modes allow customization of the gyro performance and feel of the aircraft
01-24-2015, 07:57 AM
#946
sudstad:
Thanks for the link
Looks like the model comes electric and everybody's setting it up that.
I guess I'll come over to that side eventually. If I don't get old and die first!
Yes, I built and flew a total of 3 VQ-38's, the first only made it 8 flights, but the second two lived >300 flights total.
All the hardware and some of the wood required upgrades and $300 Robart gear upgrade a MUST in my opinion, but the handling was superb and the Fowler flap design was ingenious (and had a lot to do with it being a sweet lander)
.
Overall, I'm very glad and proud to have owned them. I learned a lot about flying P-38's from them. But the urge to "keep movin' on" may prevent me from buying another.
Thanks for the link
Looks like the model comes electric and everybody's setting it up that.
I guess I'll come over to that side eventually. If I don't get old and die first!
Yes, I built and flew a total of 3 VQ-38's, the first only made it 8 flights, but the second two lived >300 flights total.
All the hardware and some of the wood required upgrades and $300 Robart gear upgrade a MUST in my opinion, but the handling was superb and the Fowler flap design was ingenious (and had a lot to do with it being a sweet lander)
Overall, I'm very glad and proud to have owned them. I learned a lot about flying P-38's from them. But the urge to "keep movin' on" may prevent me from buying another.
01-24-2015, 08:03 AM
#947
That's a Don Smith Bf-110, BTW, with OS 91-P's
Nice club Porta in the background
I left a left engine-out on my SECOND FLIGHT and was able to fly a full circuit and save it
Same technique: hard counter-rudder, as much throttle as I dared
Unable to diagnose the engine problem, and apparently so is Hobbico, as they've had it for 10 weeks now
Nice club Porta in the background
I left a left engine-out on my SECOND FLIGHT and was able to fly a full circuit and save it
Same technique: hard counter-rudder, as much throttle as I dared
Unable to diagnose the engine problem, and apparently so is Hobbico, as they've had it for 10 weeks now
01-24-2015, 11:21 AM
#948
My Feedback: (13)
sudstad:
Thanks for the link
Looks like the model comes electric and everybody's setting it up that.
I guess I'll come over to that side eventually. If I don't get old and die first!
Yes, I built and flew a total of 3 VQ-38's, the first only made it 8 flights, but the second two lived >300 flights total.
All the hardware and some of the wood required upgrades and $300 Robart gear upgrade a MUST in my opinion, but the handling was superb and the Fowler flap design was ingenious (and had a lot to do with it being a sweet lander).
Overall, I'm very glad and proud to have owned them. I learned a lot about flying P-38's from them. But the urge to "keep movin' on" may prevent me from buying another.
Thanks for the link
Looks like the model comes electric and everybody's setting it up that.
I guess I'll come over to that side eventually. If I don't get old and die first!
Yes, I built and flew a total of 3 VQ-38's, the first only made it 8 flights, but the second two lived >300 flights total.
All the hardware and some of the wood required upgrades and $300 Robart gear upgrade a MUST in my opinion, but the handling was superb and the Fowler flap design was ingenious (and had a lot to do with it being a sweet lander)
Overall, I'm very glad and proud to have owned them. I learned a lot about flying P-38's from them. But the urge to "keep movin' on" may prevent me from buying another.
01-24-2015, 01:26 PM
#949
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Anybody thinking of using the "twinsync" engine synchronizer ? If one engine fails I believe it throttles the good engine back until you reduce the throttle setting and advance it again
01-24-2015, 02:12 PM
#950
I put that thread up as just thru this group, I know of three broken YA-38s. If you have the patience, and the talent to build a plane from wood, you can certainly glue some fiberglass back together. Always happy to help out if I can
Thanks Kram
I am really looking fwd to it. It is getting close!
Trial fit
Landing gear moves all by itself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt2N1oTduZI
Last edited by 70 ragtop; 01-24-2015 at 02:17 PM.