mikes68charger

My Feedback: (34)

Im not sure how to ask this question but I had 2 different people ask me this one being my wife

Yes I know im 1/2 German and 1/2 Italian. Im 6ft tall bald with blue eyes

I really wanted the ME109 from nitro planes for my B day but the wife said no in fear of what people might think of me flying a plane with a nozi symbols

I blew it off, well now im working on my 2nd p47 this time I its a CMJ/Meister 102in. AND I really love the paint skeem used by the Germans when they used them

Pluse I didn't know they did such a thing as used crashed American fighters in the war

Once again one of my flying buddies asked me the same question, do I think people will look at me or treat me different because of the paint skeem im thinking of useing

So I know race and German hate discrimination still exist but in this hobby I think we all appreciate the plane for there performance and looks more than what they represented


I even had the same issue when it came time to paint my 68 charger wich I got at 18 due to my love of tge Dukes of Hazzard and wanted to paint it the same way flag and all, but with me being in the Army I move all around the US and did not want some who got upset by it to couse it harm

So is my wife and buddy off or am I just blind?

Mike

chris923

My Feedback: (53)

Personally, being German, Dutch and Irish and a amateur historian, I have no problem with German, Italian, Japanese Planes. But, I would only put the "Iron Crosses" on the plane and would skip the swastika. The Swastika represents the second most
brutal Government in the history of the world to it's only people. (Stalin, being the most). I "personally" don't believe it takes away from the "scale" aspects of the plane to leave it off. Putting the swastika might only led to unsettling feeling and that is unnecessary, in a fun hobby. If you wish to "stir" things up ( which is your right ) go ahead, but for the sole idea of "scale" only it would leave it off.


That being said, I would support your rights to do what you wish, even if I would not do it.

Warbird Man

My Feedback: (95)

That is always going to be a touchy subject. I'm also half German as a lot of people are here in the states. To me, Putting the swastika on the tail of the plane to me is simply being "historically correct as far as scale". Nothing more. It doesn't mean I'm a Nazi nor do I agree with Nazisum. And I think as far as the scale warbird community goes, (modeling or full scale) there is not a problem with it. But your going to have people that don't see it that way and it's very understandable.
I guess it all depends on where you fly and at what events. I mostly fly my warbirds with the show team I belong to. And we fly at a lot of different public events. I don't want to get anyone upset so I either don't fly a German plane with a swastika on it or fly one without it.

As far as building and flying an axis plane in it's self, I don't think there is any reason for concern. Build and fly what ever you want.

Yes, During WWII the Germans repaired a lot of downed US planes and tried to sneak them into B-17 formations hoping to cause havoc.

MarkShapiro

My Feedback: (52)

Ditto what Chris923 and WarBird Man said, but add the following to his remarks: Whenever I see a guy flying his luftwaffe warbird with a swastika on it, I always wonder if that person really understands the depth of nazi tyranny that it represents. (Same for Japanese aircraft) And if the person really does understand it, then how he would want to have any connection to it at all, even if only as a model representing actual military aircraft. Perhaps after almost 70 following WWII, people are less sensitive to nazi atrocities; but they shouldn't be. Nazi atrocities were not limited to genocide and murder of civilian men, women and children, but included crimes against American GI's as well. I suspect that few American modelers in 1946 chose to model nazi aircraft. Perhaps the best way to consider Mike's question is this: How proud would you be of your model if it was painted with an Al Quaida flag and trim scheme, if such a trim schem existed? Or how about a model of an American Airlines 757 with an Al Quaida flag painted on the fuselage and wings? Naturally, no right-minded American, or for that matter, rational human being, would ever do such a thing. So why a different analysis for the symbol of one of the most despicable regime's in human history? Finally, the only thing I disagree with Chris about is his opinion that Stalin was worse than the nazi regime. As horrible as Stalin was (and he murdered millions of his own people), he at least did not actively set out to commit genocide and start a war which claimed the lives of 60 million people. He just killed anyone who he viewed as a threat to his power. Not at all mitigating his crimes, but, in my opinion, Hitler was worse. Food for thought, I guess.

mikes68charger

My Feedback: (34)

So your saying it would be more likely to bother some one because the p47 is an American plane with german markings?

Warbird Man

My Feedback: (95)

It's not the plane, It's the symbol used on it. Most people other than us warbird nuts, don't know the difference between a P-47 and a 190. All they see is a swastika on it.

If you really want to do a captured US plane with German markings, go for it. It's still a free country.
Just saying you might run into people that will have a problem with it.

(I can see this topic opening up a can of worms)

tailskid

My Feedback: (34)

deleted

MarkShapiro

My Feedback: (52)

Yeah Mike. If you want to model it, go for it.

Veltro

My Feedback: (1)

Years ago I had a FW-190 with the swastika on the tail. I only had one person comment on it. It was an older guy. He pointed at it, smirked, and said, "I shot one of those down."

I think if it's a very nicely done model, people will leave you alone. They'll realize it is a serious historical representation. If it's a toy looking ARF, you may get some negative comments. And I agree, I wouldn't take it to any mall shows or public events. You'll run into the PC police who know they are supposed to be upset about it, but sadly can't tell you why.

The thing I find disappointing is all the non-PC wisecracks I hear with my Italian planes. (And I'm Dutch/English).

metaldriver

I see the symbols in question as a reminder of history. For if we do not remember history and what happened we are doomed to repeat it. My father fought against the Japanese and I know from my studies how prisoners were treated by both the Japanese and Germans. Yet I have built several aircraft marked with the rising sun. I do it as tangible reminder of what happened 70 plus years ago.
As an aside the general population sees all planes with the rising sun as a Zero and most planes with the broken cross(hakkencrutz, not sure of spelling there) as a Messerschmidt or Stuka

invertmast

My Feedback: (23)

Does it affect my decision, no. But I once had a WW2 vet come to an event and see my FW190 and the look on his face made it obvious that the pain that not only he, but the world went through during that time is still alive and we'll. it makes you a little more observant to look for those hero's and spend some time discussing their experiences (if they are willing) and the model.

what is more puzzling to me is how the swastika gets more "shunning" than the rising sun

irocbsa

My Feedback: (12)

....Or the Hammer and Sickle. I bet all of the people in this thread who are up on their sanctimonious, cliche "I hate Nazis more than anyone else!" pedestal would have no problem slapping a big red meatball or a red star on their plane.

Those of us who are serious about recreating an accurate representation of a historical object put the Hakenkreuz on the tail because it was on the actual aircraft. Period. It's not an endorsement of an ideology or a political statement. If you choose not to use that particular marking, that's your business. But don't act like you occupy some moral high ground or have a greater knowledge of history because of it.

After seeing yet another post identical to this one on this forum, I asked my Grandfather one day whether he had a problem with the tail marking on my Fw-190. He said, "This is a Focke-Wulf, right? That's what was on the tail of the two 190's that strafed us as we were crossing the Rhine. Why would you erase history?". I'll continue to honor that statement. I could care less what anyone else thinks.

irocbsa

My Feedback: (12)

That's one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. One guy killed a ton of people because he didn't like them, the other killed a ton of people because they didn't like him. Just what the hell is the real difference? You're actually issuing grades of justification for mass murder as an argument in favor of your opinion on a geometric shape on the tail of a model aircraft? I haven't laughed so hard all day.

metaldriver

As for what affects my choice of subject matter in warbirds. Well it is more of what is different from the rest of the crowd. Case in point most every P-6e seen at a fly in or meet has the Snow Owl scheme on it,but not mine. I have one with the 33rd pursuit squadron badge on its side. Same for WW 2 aircraft I prefer to walk to the beat of out of the norm

invertmast

My Feedback: (23)

One could also say the Roman Empire, British empire, Chinese and yes us Americans are just as bad as what hitler and Stalin did. But because WW2 is "fresh" on the minds compared to centuries old history, it gets brought up the most. After all, when is the last tine you heard someone debate over the atrocities of the Roman Empire outside of a class room.

Unfortunately human history worldwide is tarnished in blood shed.

Again, I never understood and still don't understand why the swastika is so "taboo" but the rising sun is not.

irocbsa

My Feedback: (12)

Perfectly stated. If someone wants to eliminate symbols from existence because of injustices committed under that regime's rule, then the stars and bars should come off their American warbirds.

psb667

whirling log.
look it up

Brad330l

My Feedback: (1)

I love aeroplanes, I'll fly what I want.
I even want to get a Japanese Zero from the squadron that bombed my home town and others along the coast.

Lightspeed1551

My Feedback: (4)

Any one can build what they want, it just a model, a creative way to display history. I have a huge respect for the attention to detail warbird builders have. However even though I'm only 30 and WW2 was forever ago, I just couldn't build a Zero, or a Messerschmidt.

Brad330l

My Feedback: (1)

Just remember young fella, without the Zero or Messerschmitt there would probably be no Warhawk or Mustang.

oliveDrab

I too would skip the Swastika or alter it in such a way such that it is no longer actually a Swastika. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think in Germany the Swastika is not allowed to be displayed so RC modelers put it on their planes but do something to it so it's not exactly a Swastika. From Wikipedia: "Notably, the swastika has been outlawed in Germany and other countries if used as a symbol of Nazism in certain instances."

But the German FW-190, Dora9, TA152, and ME-109 are amazing aircraft and I actually prefer the FW-190 Dora 9 to American and British aircraft even though I'm a true mongrel American - German/Irish/Cherokee. But the Stuka on the other hand with the Nazi Swastika on the tail is in my opinion truly sinister looking and stirs negative emotions related to the Blitzkrieg and Nazi evil.

There was a similar thread on RCU a few years back and one poster stated that to depict German aircraft without the Swastika dishonors those who died because of Nazi tyranny. I suppose that means display it on models of German aircraft so we don't forget what happened. But personally I don't like seeing it.....similar to the feelings I get when I see a Confederate flag.

But to answer the OP's question...."Does history effect your choice in warbirds?" No it does not. If I had the money I would buy the ESM FW-190 Dora 9.

rgburrill

IIRC, scale competitions in the United States, and perhaps the rest of the world, allow replacing the swastica with the iron cross with no deduction in points. So yes, Warbird Man, the scale community at large does have a problem with the swastica.

mikes68charger

My Feedback: (34)

Wow, I guess this is a bigger issue than I thought,

Im still new to this hobby, and my wife thinks that those who know me, know I shave my head becouse im in the Army, and not becouse I want to be precived as a support of such a bad part of our history.

But I love history, good and the bad, I join the Army becouse my Dad, and his Dad, all servied, and I want to do my part to serve my country.

But I don't want to spend a 1/2 a year RC budget on a plane, that I get asked not to bring to a war bird event.

I guess I would just be easyer to find a new paint skeem for my P47 Razor Back....

You know, When I painted my 68 charger I asked the same question about the Rebel Flag on the Roof, and got a lot of the same responce. I even thought of replaceing it with an American Stars and Stripes Flag. But whats crazy is, I showed a lot of peaple I knew a small modle of the Duke of Haz car and asked them what they thought of the flag, and many did not even now its history, and a few younger (19 year olds) thought it was the Dukes flag not a part of our history.....

And at the end of the day, that is one of the man reasons I love these war birds, is I feel like Im showing respect to our history, if not I would be like 90% of the flyer at my feild just flying sport and IMAC planes, and Im known as the war bird guy, (the only guy crazy to spend a ton on a plane that is a challenge to take off and land) vs there easy flyers.

Thanks for the post guys,

PS My spell check don't work on this site. I know.......

Hawk131

Do what you want to, if the markings are scale to the bird do it. I personally don't give a flip what others think, this country has become too PC to the fact if a small group of people don't like it, they outlaw it. I was pissed that they put crosses on my mustang instead of swastikas for the kill emblems.

p510851

My Feedback: (60)

History doesn't dictate to me what to build. If I like a historic airplane I will build it. I like the way the Germans design planes and I have had a ME 109, FW 190. I did however opt not to put the Swastikas on the tail. I don't compete in any scale contests and didn't want to offend anyone. that being said it doesn't effect the flying characteristics of the model. I thoroughly enjoyed the models. I have a P51, P40, P26 and a CMP ZERO which flew great. ironically that was the only model that i received a comment about. i celebrate not only the skill it takes to fly one but the pure nostalgia of revisiting that period. As I said I love warbirds and yes they are a handful to fly but when you have visitors to your field which planes will they identify with and be attracted to?