ESM models price jump
04-30-2014, 04:51 PM
#52
ESM more than likely sold their arfs cheaper to start with to get their customers built up and name known and now they are raising their prices to haul $ it in. Its called buisness and China is getting good at it. Hobby king is taking over alot of the parts market and closing hobbyshops here and doing it with a plan.I hope someone gets it soon . joe
04-30-2014, 05:38 PM
#55
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[QUOTE=joebahl;11794700]"I know you are buy what am I?" is your defense? I will say that I at least make an attempt to follow forum rules, one of which is to stay on topic and not derail a thread with self aggrandizing statements that are irrelevant to the original subject of the thread. I will not "go away" as this topic directly affects me. I'm not sure why you continue posting as you have clearly stated that you are too smart, wealthy, and skillful to bother with ARFs.
04-30-2014, 06:59 PM
#56
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6 months to build is nothing. Just ask that guy who has been waiting for a replacement Esm wing panel for his 190 for 8 months now. You could of Built the entire model and been flying by now!
I was actually hoping to pickup an esm fw190D or the DO335 for a quick build to get flying for this summer, but after seeing the price hike, not interesed, i can build a better and nicer model for slightly more $$$.
I was actually hoping to pickup an esm fw190D or the DO335 for a quick build to get flying for this summer, but after seeing the price hike, not interesed, i can build a better and nicer model for slightly more $$$.
It will sit there until I feel motivated to build a new wing, or TBM actually gets some spares from China
04-30-2014, 07:21 PM
#58
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Good question. Ribs cores are laser cut (inside for lightening), so there is really nothing to them. Tree jumps in front of the plane, just a pile of splinters left inside the covering. Tuff to put the puzzle back together quickly. Once I saw it was going to be more than a couple night repair job, I set it aside. Worth it to me to pay the $80 for a wing and be done with it, of coarse I said that in the fall, going into 6 months of no flying
04-30-2014, 07:26 PM
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I have been saying this for years...
China is in very similar economic situation as Japan was in the 70's The big difference is the Japan Culture. =. promotes perfection...
The answer.... Move out of China, and go to Vietnam or were ever Seagull Models is located.... That is one way to combat prices....
Just sayn..
04-30-2014, 07:28 PM
#60
Good question. Ribs cores are laser cut (inside for lightening), so there is really nothing to them. Tree jumps in front of the plane, just a pile of splinters left inside the covering. Tuff to put the puzzle back together quickly. Once I saw it was going to be more than a couple night repair job, I set it aside. Worth it to me to pay the $80 for a wing and be done with it, of coarse I said that in the fall, going into 6 months of no flying
04-30-2014, 07:35 PM
#61
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If you have to replace hardware, it adds up fast. The one thing ESM has going for it's brand, A wide range of warbirds..... They have almost ALL the major WWII planes in a 1.20-50cc size.
No one else does this...
No one else does this...
05-01-2014, 03:36 AM
#63
I don't believe the price increase comes due to the manufacturer. I feel its some silly strategy from Troy built models or people on their end. Somehow, I'm thinking they feel as if its a comparable product, price wise, to the Top Flite or Hangar 9 brands which its definitely not! I was considering their 50cc 109 but will take a turn and get the more advanced Hangar 9 60CC mustang instead! The cost will be about the same in the end, but I will be flying in less time with a more advanced model. I noticed the price hike comes conveniently before the season when modelers tend to do more spending as well. At the end of the day we are taking about a China made product here, same as it ever was, cheap! I remember when ESM switched to Troy Built Models for importing their product, the prices fell nearly in half, the new importer selects the pricing users will pay, not ESM. I think Troy built models are pretty much taking the ESM product down the same road that KMP has. The only selling point of an ESM model is supposed to be the price, since hardware, design and time to get it up flying is definitely not its selling points. They are just nicely painted average quality glass fuses, which is by the way what attracts most of us. I never felt they are on par with either Top Flite or Hangar 9 arf's because of the amount of additional spending and time involved to make them into an appreciable flying model and really wouldn't refer to them as ARF's. You will be spending more time and evidently money now doing an ESM model, something many modelers don't stop to consider when choosing this brand. Perhaps when a new competitive importer for the ESM product comes along you will see prices drop again. In the mean time I'll just wait on the 50CC 109 and do one of those newer warbird ARF's while Darwin hurrys up and does his thing. Top Flite or Hangar 9 this time for sure.
Last edited by Tisoy909; 05-01-2014 at 05:06 AM.
05-01-2014, 07:30 AM
#64
Also, if the buyers of such products rely on the inadequate hardware that is supplied with most of these models, there is a good likelihood there will be a failure. Unless the pilot knows better.
The AMA used to give all of us members a rule book each year. This contained proper control terminations under the General R/C. Following these guidelines would not be possible with what is supplied with most ARF's.
The AMA used to give all of us members a rule book each year. This contained proper control terminations under the General R/C. Following these guidelines would not be possible with what is supplied with most ARF's.
05-01-2014, 09:34 AM
#65
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Sorry to hear that for some folks, but no problem here. Quit buying ESM, ECOMRC and KMP couple years ago. Got fed up with paying for a good looking 'shell', then buying all new hardware and spending 2x the build time getting defects corrected. By the 3rd - 4th one, it became apparent to me that I wasn't getting lemons, that's just how they are! Still have a KMP Adam A500 that heck, I may never be able to get the thing finished. Only reason hang on to it because its so unique and so few were sold, and fewer yet flying, .. eventually I hope to get it done, but good night what a train-wreck of quality it is. And I will say that the ESM / ECOMRC planes, when done, were damned nice looking, just too many woes getting there. Taking time from ARF's to teach myself how to build.
05-01-2014, 09:44 AM
#67
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Its the sign of the times I guess, I currently building an ESM B25 and its huge compaired to the Hanger 9 B25 I had before this one. While I had an ESM 74in Corsair, and loved it untill it died one day.
Im worried that ESM may be on the way out.
Look at NitroPlanes and the CMP modles wich are like lower grade ESM modles wich are almost unatainable now.
I went with the ESM B25 as it offered the only thing TopFlite and Hanger 9 could not, and that was a composit modle of a B25 with no monacoat, wich I cant stand.
I got 3 TF Gaint war birds and I wish they would use the solortex fabric that ESM uses.
But I have to admit I had to pay $145 dollars for shipping from FL (TBM) to Columbus OH wich was a lot to take.....
I think ESM may be putting them selfs in a bad place, becouse as much as I don't like a TF balsa modle, I have yet to see another ESM war bird at any of the local shows I have attended. As to me the TF Balsa modles are great to learn with, then once you have flown it for a year or two and it starts looking bad, you just fiberglass it and you got a whole new bird.
Im worried that ESM may be on the way out.
Look at NitroPlanes and the CMP modles wich are like lower grade ESM modles wich are almost unatainable now.
I went with the ESM B25 as it offered the only thing TopFlite and Hanger 9 could not, and that was a composit modle of a B25 with no monacoat, wich I cant stand.
I got 3 TF Gaint war birds and I wish they would use the solortex fabric that ESM uses.
But I have to admit I had to pay $145 dollars for shipping from FL (TBM) to Columbus OH wich was a lot to take.....
I think ESM may be putting them selfs in a bad place, becouse as much as I don't like a TF balsa modle, I have yet to see another ESM war bird at any of the local shows I have attended. As to me the TF Balsa modles are great to learn with, then once you have flown it for a year or two and it starts looking bad, you just fiberglass it and you got a whole new bird.
05-01-2014, 10:31 AM
#68
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If from the numerous posts is seems clear that ESM pricing is making them a non option for almost everyone who has posted and the folks who suggest building as an alternative are labeled as trols and they should go away, what is the objective of this thread? I do of course recognize that many cannot build for variouse reasons. So it seems clear that the options are to pay the ESM prices, try other ARFs (TF, H9, others?) at the same price or a bit more, or build. Perhaps the objective is to ID all of the options in the ESM size range? That might be helpfull.
As has been pointed out, costs from some of these low cost countries are going up and this thread could discuss the dynamics of that which a couple of posts have. That is the way it went with Japan and it will continue to do so.
By the way, I like to build and family/outside interests do slow my builds but that is OK because I also have ARF's. Both work for me.
Lars
As has been pointed out, costs from some of these low cost countries are going up and this thread could discuss the dynamics of that which a couple of posts have. That is the way it went with Japan and it will continue to do so.
By the way, I like to build and family/outside interests do slow my builds but that is OK because I also have ARF's. Both work for me.
Lars
05-01-2014, 12:14 PM
#69
Also, as difficult as it may be for some to understand, flying is not the only aspect of this hobby. Growing up, my dad was always building something, and he his directly responsible for teaching me how to build. He never flew an airplane in his life. So for me personally, building is at least half of the fun. Then at least 25% more is seeing what I built does in the air. So when I go the ARF route, a large part of my hobby experience is absent.
I understand though, that most do not have the space or tools, or a plethora of other reasons why building is not for them. One thing is for sure though, if you want a truly high quality warbird, it is the only option. Unless you pay someone to build one for you. That would make ESM prices look like a steal I am guessing.
I understand though, that most do not have the space or tools, or a plethora of other reasons why building is not for them. One thing is for sure though, if you want a truly high quality warbird, it is the only option. Unless you pay someone to build one for you. That would make ESM prices look like a steal I am guessing.
05-01-2014, 12:26 PM
#70
Also, as difficult as it may be for some to understand, flying is not the only aspect of this hobby. Growing up, my dad was always building something, and he his directly responsible for teaching me how to build. He never flew an airplane in his life. So for me personally, building is at least half of the fun. Then at least 25% more is seeing what I built does in the air. So when I go the ARF route, a large part of my hobby experience is absent.
I understand though, that most do not have the space or tools, or a plethora of other reasons why building is not for them. One thing is for sure though, if you want a truly high quality warbird, it is the only option. Unless you pay someone to build one for you. That would make ESM prices look like a steal I am guessing.
I understand though, that most do not have the space or tools, or a plethora of other reasons why building is not for them. One thing is for sure though, if you want a truly high quality warbird, it is the only option. Unless you pay someone to build one for you. That would make ESM prices look like a steal I am guessing.
05-01-2014, 12:28 PM
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I think a rise in prices of ARFs will be the norm and not the exception. Perhaps it is due to ESM wanting to make more per model but most likely it has to do with rising labor costs in China. As they grow over there, they want the good life like we do and start wanting better pay. That's just how it goes. Add in higher fuel costs for shipping higher tarrifs from greedy governments etc. and the price only goes in one direction. I have seen several manufacturers talking about this. Redwing even has a video posted on their site talking about it.
As for the post before about all sites showing the same price it is called a M.A.P. price (minimum advertised price). I am a retailer and know all to well about MAP policies with vendors. While no manufacturer can tell me what to sell an item for in USA, they can tell me how much I can advertise it for. An advertised price is not the sale price and if I don't follow the MAP policy, I will lose my wholesale account with the vendor. To be honest MAP prices really help the smaller guys as we cannot always compete with the bargain box stores but if we all have to advertise at the same price then it levels the playing field. From the manufacturers point of view it reduces the chance of sellers "cheapening" the brand by blowing it out for rock bottom prices.
I am always impressed by those who can build. My Father in Law is a competition level builder (flying not so much) and he really enjoys it. I could tell you all how I work 60 plus hours a week, have another hobby that takes up more time (Motocross) have a family to raise etc but the truth is I like flying, not building. If building was what I wanted to do then I would do it but that is just not interesting to me. Standing over a bench gluing sticks together is just not everyone's thing. I have tried it and almost completed a Senior Kadet but lost interest 3/4 of the way through. It seems as though there are a lot of different avenues to persue in this hobby and that is what makes it great. What most don't realize is that ARF's have fueled so much of the new products released and the advances in engines, radios etc can be directly attributed to ARF dollars coming in and that benefits everyone. Kind of the same thing we are seeing now with drones. I hate them but glad my LHS is keeping his doors open by selling them to a whole new customer. Ok hate is strong but their not my taste
As for the post before about all sites showing the same price it is called a M.A.P. price (minimum advertised price). I am a retailer and know all to well about MAP policies with vendors. While no manufacturer can tell me what to sell an item for in USA, they can tell me how much I can advertise it for. An advertised price is not the sale price and if I don't follow the MAP policy, I will lose my wholesale account with the vendor. To be honest MAP prices really help the smaller guys as we cannot always compete with the bargain box stores but if we all have to advertise at the same price then it levels the playing field. From the manufacturers point of view it reduces the chance of sellers "cheapening" the brand by blowing it out for rock bottom prices.
I am always impressed by those who can build. My Father in Law is a competition level builder (flying not so much) and he really enjoys it. I could tell you all how I work 60 plus hours a week, have another hobby that takes up more time (Motocross) have a family to raise etc but the truth is I like flying, not building. If building was what I wanted to do then I would do it but that is just not interesting to me. Standing over a bench gluing sticks together is just not everyone's thing. I have tried it and almost completed a Senior Kadet but lost interest 3/4 of the way through. It seems as though there are a lot of different avenues to persue in this hobby and that is what makes it great. What most don't realize is that ARF's have fueled so much of the new products released and the advances in engines, radios etc can be directly attributed to ARF dollars coming in and that benefits everyone. Kind of the same thing we are seeing now with drones. I hate them but glad my LHS is keeping his doors open by selling them to a whole new customer. Ok hate is strong but their not my taste
05-01-2014, 12:33 PM
#72
Also, as difficult as it may be for some to understand, flying is not the only aspect of this hobby. Growing up, my dad was always building something, and he his directly responsible for teaching me how to build. He never flew an airplane in his life. So for me personally, building is at least half of the fun. Then at least 25% more is seeing what I built does in the air. So when I go the ARF route, a large part of my hobby experience is absent.
I understand though, that most do not have the space or tools, or a plethora of other reasons why building is not for them. One thing is for sure though, if you want a truly high quality warbird, it is the only option. Unless you pay someone to build one for you. That would make ESM prices look like a steal I am guessing.
I understand though, that most do not have the space or tools, or a plethora of other reasons why building is not for them. One thing is for sure though, if you want a truly high quality warbird, it is the only option. Unless you pay someone to build one for you. That would make ESM prices look like a steal I am guessing.
Gerry
Last edited by GerKonig; 05-01-2014 at 12:34 PM. Reason: Typo correction
05-01-2014, 12:35 PM
#73
Sorry to hear that for some folks, but no problem here. Quit buying ESM, ECOMRC and KMP couple years ago. Got fed up with paying for a good looking 'shell', then buying all new hardware and spending 2x the build time getting defects corrected. By the 3rd - 4th one, it became apparent to me that I wasn't getting lemons, that's just how they are! Still have a KMP Adam A500 that heck, I may never be able to get the thing finished. Only reason hang on to it because its so unique and so few were sold, and fewer yet flying, .. eventually I hope to get it done, but good night what a train-wreck of quality it is. And I will say that the ESM / ECOMRC planes, when done, were damned nice looking, just too many woes getting there. Taking time from ARF's to teach myself how to build.
Gerry
05-01-2014, 01:57 PM
#74
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Thanks Gerry!
As to the building stuff, good for some and not so good for others. For me, I'm messing with it for 2 reasons; one, nothing really new coming out, what is out seems to be rehashes of same planes, but that's understandable because vendors want to cater to as wide a group as possible. Two, it seemed like the next logical step for me. Been flying ARF's for a number of years, and frankly was getting a bit bored, so building seems like a reasonable next step. But to get back in the vein of the topic, even with some slight price increases, ARF's will still remain popular, its the damned shipping that personally makes me grit my teeth. If I see an ARF I want bad enough, I'll find a way to get it, but tack on another 100.00-200.00 to get it here and I start questioning how bad I want it. Is building cheaper? IMHO.. hell no. Pop a few hundred on a short kit, the wood to construct with, the tools/materials to build with, THEN covering, engine, electronics and so forth.. and we haven't even talked about time. Guess it depends on how quick one wants something. I'm still buying ARF's, just not as many, the ESM's of the world are at the point of asking too much for too little. Maybe its time for an ARF shakeup, bring some quality back into the game. Or maybe I'm being too subjective and quality or lack thereof means different things to different people. Its still all good to me, whatever works for a person.. At the end of my day... Still so many planes to explore... so little time and coin... LOL!!
As to the building stuff, good for some and not so good for others. For me, I'm messing with it for 2 reasons; one, nothing really new coming out, what is out seems to be rehashes of same planes, but that's understandable because vendors want to cater to as wide a group as possible. Two, it seemed like the next logical step for me. Been flying ARF's for a number of years, and frankly was getting a bit bored, so building seems like a reasonable next step. But to get back in the vein of the topic, even with some slight price increases, ARF's will still remain popular, its the damned shipping that personally makes me grit my teeth. If I see an ARF I want bad enough, I'll find a way to get it, but tack on another 100.00-200.00 to get it here and I start questioning how bad I want it. Is building cheaper? IMHO.. hell no. Pop a few hundred on a short kit, the wood to construct with, the tools/materials to build with, THEN covering, engine, electronics and so forth.. and we haven't even talked about time. Guess it depends on how quick one wants something. I'm still buying ARF's, just not as many, the ESM's of the world are at the point of asking too much for too little. Maybe its time for an ARF shakeup, bring some quality back into the game. Or maybe I'm being too subjective and quality or lack thereof means different things to different people. Its still all good to me, whatever works for a person.. At the end of my day... Still so many planes to explore... so little time and coin... LOL!!
05-01-2014, 02:07 PM
#75
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I understand though, that most do not have the space or tools, or a plethora of other reasons why building is not for them. One thing is for sure though, if you want a truly high quality warbird, it is the only option. Unless you pay someone to build one for you. That would make ESM prices look like a steal I am guessing.
So, I do completely understand and appreciate the guys that kit build. It's a labor of love and a money saving venture as well. However, those of us that don't are not lazy or incapable. It's simply a practical choice for better or worse.
The great thing about ESM was that I'm sure they practically forced manufacturers like Top Flite and Hangar 9 to produce something other than Corsairs and Mustangs. The TF Fw-190 and H9 Bf-109 are great examples. Guys were probably beating down their door wondering why they couldn't get more exotic planes after seeing ESM's inventory. It's too bad that ESM's quality and prices are now both sub-par as they are probably putting themselves out of business. Less competition is not a good thing for this hobby.