ESM models price jump
05-01-2014, 02:12 PM
#76
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I think you hit the nail on the head here. As was stated previously by VG, this is a market correction. ESM took a risk that nice looks and a great price would beat out quality in the end. They lost that bet and now they're raising their prices to make up for it. Unfortunately, they don't have the positive reputation for quality, service, and reliability that you need in order to raise your prices and keep your customers. Top Flite, Hangar 9, Aeroworks, etc. will probably win the game because of it.
05-01-2014, 04:21 PM
#78
My local hobby store gives club members a discount ( of my local flying field). It is cost plus 15%. Pretty good deal really as it pays my membership by the end of the year really.
If you have a local hobby shop, can't you order your Hanger 9 or Top flite through them? That is a win win. You support them, and you don't have to pay shipping.
I did this with a big kit purchase recently. I bought my Balsa USA Fokker DR1 kit through my LHS, and I saved all of the shipping costs, which would have been in the neighborhood of $40. Even for a kit! It is a big box of sticks though.
For anyone that may be wanting to take the plunge into building, I highly recommend looking at Ziroli. Those are great kits. Balsa USA is another. It is important to start with a good kit, otherwise success may be tough to come by.
If you have a local hobby shop, can't you order your Hanger 9 or Top flite through them? That is a win win. You support them, and you don't have to pay shipping.
I did this with a big kit purchase recently. I bought my Balsa USA Fokker DR1 kit through my LHS, and I saved all of the shipping costs, which would have been in the neighborhood of $40. Even for a kit! It is a big box of sticks though.
For anyone that may be wanting to take the plunge into building, I highly recommend looking at Ziroli. Those are great kits. Balsa USA is another. It is important to start with a good kit, otherwise success may be tough to come by.
05-01-2014, 10:00 PM
#79
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Hi Guys,
I've built and flown the ESM F6F and needed to toss out all the hardware and buy DuBro and Sullivan hardware to get my model into the air. The model did come out quite nice and with Sierra landing gear, a dream to fly and land. I was looking to buy either the ESM B-25 or F7F...but went with an AMR kit instead. Paying nearly $1000.00 for a ESM kit shipped to the islands and needing to put out an additional two to three bills to install proper hardware is not cost effective for me anymore.
Another thing I've noticed with a lot of ARF models is that one hard landing and the model self destructs. They are built way to light in my opinion, though they do perform quite well. I've seen this with to many aerobatic models and a few scale models too. I remember when there were few ARF's in the hobby, with Lanier the really only manufacturer of any size. Now their models all flew quite well...but the material they were made of, was not up to the job. You were lucky to get a full flying season off of a Lanier ARF. Today's lightly built ARF models are up to the task, but one hard landing or clipped wing on landing and your back to square one.
A good laser cut kit is simple to assemble and quick too. Not like in the days of past with crunch cut kits-ie Sterling, Gillows and others. A few kit makers like Andrews, Stanford, Dave Platt, Birdi , to name a few, cut good kits, though hand cut. I find that framing up a newer laser/computer cut model is not that difficult and goes a lot faster then one would first realize. Also, while building up the frame work, you can place all your servo's and hardware, prior to your finish covering, be paint, glass cloth or heat shrink.
My ESM kit took a lot of rework to get to the finish product, and I'll admit, it was a nice finished model. When I calculated my hands on time to build the ARF, I could have built a framed model almost as fast. Now in today's reality and what it takes to support a home and family, for many, time is difficult to come by, and that is why ARF's sell so well here. Folks need to work their butt's off to pay the bills and the hobby is what quiets the soul, so to speak...at least with me.
With ESM kits getting as expensive for sure, but the Top Flight Gold Edition kits turn out a nice model...and you can get all the parts you need from Tower.
I have no idea where all this is going, but I'm in for the long haul. I'm back into building kits and that's ok too. I've built many ARF's, and needed to modify all of them in one way or another. Some ARF's I just stay away from , like VQ (lousy plastic parts that crack easy and a covering that is the worst I've ever used) and all the older Chinese fiberglass models. I had a China made fiberglass F4U melt in the sun on me...and a Global Skyraider that had a wing explode in flight.
To be real here...nothing seems to ever go down in price these day's and ESM ARF's have had stable prices for a while now. Every thing is going up in price, just look at the cost of fuel and food here today. I found that I needed to make an adjustment in my hobby purchasing and I'm steering away from large ARF's-heading back to building my airframes. My current build is a AMR Giant Twin Ugly Stick and this AMR kit is a thing of beauty.
Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui
I've built and flown the ESM F6F and needed to toss out all the hardware and buy DuBro and Sullivan hardware to get my model into the air. The model did come out quite nice and with Sierra landing gear, a dream to fly and land. I was looking to buy either the ESM B-25 or F7F...but went with an AMR kit instead. Paying nearly $1000.00 for a ESM kit shipped to the islands and needing to put out an additional two to three bills to install proper hardware is not cost effective for me anymore.
Another thing I've noticed with a lot of ARF models is that one hard landing and the model self destructs. They are built way to light in my opinion, though they do perform quite well. I've seen this with to many aerobatic models and a few scale models too. I remember when there were few ARF's in the hobby, with Lanier the really only manufacturer of any size. Now their models all flew quite well...but the material they were made of, was not up to the job. You were lucky to get a full flying season off of a Lanier ARF. Today's lightly built ARF models are up to the task, but one hard landing or clipped wing on landing and your back to square one.
A good laser cut kit is simple to assemble and quick too. Not like in the days of past with crunch cut kits-ie Sterling, Gillows and others. A few kit makers like Andrews, Stanford, Dave Platt, Birdi , to name a few, cut good kits, though hand cut. I find that framing up a newer laser/computer cut model is not that difficult and goes a lot faster then one would first realize. Also, while building up the frame work, you can place all your servo's and hardware, prior to your finish covering, be paint, glass cloth or heat shrink.
My ESM kit took a lot of rework to get to the finish product, and I'll admit, it was a nice finished model. When I calculated my hands on time to build the ARF, I could have built a framed model almost as fast. Now in today's reality and what it takes to support a home and family, for many, time is difficult to come by, and that is why ARF's sell so well here. Folks need to work their butt's off to pay the bills and the hobby is what quiets the soul, so to speak...at least with me.
With ESM kits getting as expensive for sure, but the Top Flight Gold Edition kits turn out a nice model...and you can get all the parts you need from Tower.
I have no idea where all this is going, but I'm in for the long haul. I'm back into building kits and that's ok too. I've built many ARF's, and needed to modify all of them in one way or another. Some ARF's I just stay away from , like VQ (lousy plastic parts that crack easy and a covering that is the worst I've ever used) and all the older Chinese fiberglass models. I had a China made fiberglass F4U melt in the sun on me...and a Global Skyraider that had a wing explode in flight.
To be real here...nothing seems to ever go down in price these day's and ESM ARF's have had stable prices for a while now. Every thing is going up in price, just look at the cost of fuel and food here today. I found that I needed to make an adjustment in my hobby purchasing and I'm steering away from large ARF's-heading back to building my airframes. My current build is a AMR Giant Twin Ugly Stick and this AMR kit is a thing of beauty.
Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui
Last edited by Bob Paris; 05-01-2014 at 10:20 PM.
05-02-2014, 03:41 AM
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FYI, always make sure to check Ebay for Horizon planes. They usually don't charge shipping on ebay and if your not in IL then there is no Tax. This is Horizon's Ebay store not one of their dealers.
05-02-2014, 12:13 PM
#81
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Guys, I know this thread is about the ESM price jump. I did want to mention that as far as price goes and quality stand point. I bought a Hangar 9 Taylorcraft (2 piece wing) and installed a Zenaoh G-26ei in it. The quality was very good other than paint flaking off the fitments on the landing gear etc. It was a tank. Very good aircraft and I sold it after a year and a half of flying it.
I know some of the cheaper arfs from hangar 9 are not as good but overall I think Hangar 9 is pretty good for arf's.
That said, I have no experience with ESM other than what I read on the forums. Seems to me that if you are having to get rid of the hardware package and do some mods to get an ESM up to standards you might just save up and buy a quality ARF from another dealer?
Anyway as for me although not against the ARF community at all. I enjoy building. Currently I am building a Top Flight giant scale P-47. What I really like about building is, I know what is inside my bird. No guesswork. Yep the hibby jibby's are there during maidens as someone mentioned earlier about time investment in an airframe. But after a few flights it settles down.
I know some of you do not have any interest in building and want to spend your time flying and that is cool as well.
Me, I tend to have an arf for flying when I am building and sell it after I get my kit built. then sell the kit, buy and arf and rinse and repeat.
Anyway prices are not going to come down and the best deal is to build or buy a used airframe. We all like to complain about arf prices and quality.
Ya'll have a good one.
Glenn
I know some of the cheaper arfs from hangar 9 are not as good but overall I think Hangar 9 is pretty good for arf's.
That said, I have no experience with ESM other than what I read on the forums. Seems to me that if you are having to get rid of the hardware package and do some mods to get an ESM up to standards you might just save up and buy a quality ARF from another dealer?
Anyway as for me although not against the ARF community at all. I enjoy building. Currently I am building a Top Flight giant scale P-47. What I really like about building is, I know what is inside my bird. No guesswork. Yep the hibby jibby's are there during maidens as someone mentioned earlier about time investment in an airframe. But after a few flights it settles down.
I know some of you do not have any interest in building and want to spend your time flying and that is cool as well.
Me, I tend to have an arf for flying when I am building and sell it after I get my kit built. then sell the kit, buy and arf and rinse and repeat.
Anyway prices are not going to come down and the best deal is to build or buy a used airframe. We all like to complain about arf prices and quality.
Ya'll have a good one.
Glenn
05-03-2014, 03:14 AM
#82
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Economics supply and demand do not = price increase because of poor quality at low prices .
I just spent 4 weeks in China, labor is at an all time high, the Govt is hiding the poor economy , 1000s of empty buildings and construction. Google "China Ghost Cities" 60 mins did a great job capturing what I viewed in person.
My assumption on the ESM increase is very simple , labor, declining reliable labor will continue to increase cost in China.
Three factors 1) electronic industry is paying more then toys, food and all other industries, 2) China is funding farmers to keep there kids at home and work the fields 3) despite what you read about abuse, low labor rates and "poor me" many of the factories are filled with 18 to 25 year old kids with i-phone, trendy teen dress wear and no interesting in producing anything at a high rate ( viewed this myself ) taking a tour at a tin factory watching people operate machines while texting and taking (while taking a plant tour lol ) .
Remember ESM came into the USA from KMP Kondor Model Products , it was over priced based on him markup . Troy& VQ took over when sales lagged and the planes dropped an avg of $200 in retail cost . So increases now , almost 5 years later are normal and very expected.
While I agree with quality and issues with ESM, I also see quality issues continue with the major brand threads on the newest and highest end of the Hobby, so its still a buyer beware .
The low end was CMP, China Model Products, long gone as a factor in ARFs , they lost the battle to ESM when the prices dropped because why pay $200 to $300 for CMP when ESM was being sold at $300 to $329 for the 70" versions.
The problem with anything from China is MOQ=Minimum Order Quantity and that is what drives cost up when a distributor trys to order, typically they need to order an MOQ =container, and a 20 ft container is so cost prohibitive vs a 40 ft and how many of the guys today want a 40 ft container of anything . So any ARF that is subject to straight containers defined as (non-assorted ) means the Purchaser like Hobbyco, Horizon , Troy/VQ must order a container all factors of cost , increases and planes being discontinued
I just spent 4 weeks in China, labor is at an all time high, the Govt is hiding the poor economy , 1000s of empty buildings and construction. Google "China Ghost Cities" 60 mins did a great job capturing what I viewed in person.
My assumption on the ESM increase is very simple , labor, declining reliable labor will continue to increase cost in China.
Three factors 1) electronic industry is paying more then toys, food and all other industries, 2) China is funding farmers to keep there kids at home and work the fields 3) despite what you read about abuse, low labor rates and "poor me" many of the factories are filled with 18 to 25 year old kids with i-phone, trendy teen dress wear and no interesting in producing anything at a high rate ( viewed this myself ) taking a tour at a tin factory watching people operate machines while texting and taking (while taking a plant tour lol ) .
Remember ESM came into the USA from KMP Kondor Model Products , it was over priced based on him markup . Troy& VQ took over when sales lagged and the planes dropped an avg of $200 in retail cost . So increases now , almost 5 years later are normal and very expected.
While I agree with quality and issues with ESM, I also see quality issues continue with the major brand threads on the newest and highest end of the Hobby, so its still a buyer beware .
The low end was CMP, China Model Products, long gone as a factor in ARFs , they lost the battle to ESM when the prices dropped because why pay $200 to $300 for CMP when ESM was being sold at $300 to $329 for the 70" versions.
The problem with anything from China is MOQ=Minimum Order Quantity and that is what drives cost up when a distributor trys to order, typically they need to order an MOQ =container, and a 20 ft container is so cost prohibitive vs a 40 ft and how many of the guys today want a 40 ft container of anything . So any ARF that is subject to straight containers defined as (non-assorted ) means the Purchaser like Hobbyco, Horizon , Troy/VQ must order a container all factors of cost , increases and planes being discontinued
05-04-2014, 06:45 AM
#83
Here is my TF 190 after last flight. A big chunk of monocote just ripped off. But that is exactly what I expect from Monokote, so I am not upset or anything. It's just the way it is. Otherwise a fantastic plane.
I guess they all have their ups and downs, and the only way to avoid it, is to build from a kit.
Last edited by kwik; 05-04-2014 at 06:48 AM.
05-04-2014, 06:52 AM
#84
True, but, it is monocote......
Here is my TF 190 after last flight. A big chunk of monocote just ripped off. But that is exactly what I expect from Monokote, so I am not upset or anything. It's just the way it is. Otherwise a fantastic plane.
I guess they all have their ups and downs, and the only way to avoid it, is to build from a kit.
Here is my TF 190 after last flight. A big chunk of monocote just ripped off. But that is exactly what I expect from Monokote, so I am not upset or anything. It's just the way it is. Otherwise a fantastic plane.
I guess they all have their ups and downs, and the only way to avoid it, is to build from a kit.
05-04-2014, 06:56 AM
#85
Economics supply and demand do not = price increase because of poor quality at low prices .
I just spent 4 weeks in China, labor is at an all time high, the Govt is hiding the poor economy , 1000s of empty buildings and construction. Google "China Ghost Cities" 60 mins did a great job capturing what I viewed in person.
My assumption on the ESM increase is very simple , labor, declining reliable labor will continue to increase cost in China.
Three factors 1) electronic industry is paying more then toys, food and all other industries, 2) China is funding farmers to keep there kids at home and work the fields 3) despite what you read about abuse, low labor rates and "poor me" many of the factories are filled with 18 to 25 year old kids with i-phone, trendy teen dress wear and no interesting in producing anything at a high rate ( viewed this myself ) taking a tour at a tin factory watching people operate machines while texting and taking (while taking a plant tour lol ) .
Remember ESM came into the USA from KMP Kondor Model Products , it was over priced based on him markup . Troy& VQ took over when sales lagged and the planes dropped an avg of $200 in retail cost . So increases now , almost 5 years later are normal and very expected.
While I agree with quality and issues with ESM, I also see quality issues continue with the major brand threads on the newest and highest end of the Hobby, so its still a buyer beware .
The low end was CMP, China Model Products, long gone as a factor in ARFs , they lost the battle to ESM when the prices dropped because why pay $200 to $300 for CMP when ESM was being sold at $300 to $329 for the 70" versions.
The problem with anything from China is MOQ=Minimum Order Quantity and that is what drives cost up when a distributor trys to order, typically they need to order an MOQ =container, and a 20 ft container is so cost prohibitive vs a 40 ft and how many of the guys today want a 40 ft container of anything . So any ARF that is subject to straight containers defined as (non-assorted ) means the Purchaser like Hobbyco, Horizon , Troy/VQ must order a container all factors of cost , increases and planes being discontinued
I just spent 4 weeks in China, labor is at an all time high, the Govt is hiding the poor economy , 1000s of empty buildings and construction. Google "China Ghost Cities" 60 mins did a great job capturing what I viewed in person.
My assumption on the ESM increase is very simple , labor, declining reliable labor will continue to increase cost in China.
Three factors 1) electronic industry is paying more then toys, food and all other industries, 2) China is funding farmers to keep there kids at home and work the fields 3) despite what you read about abuse, low labor rates and "poor me" many of the factories are filled with 18 to 25 year old kids with i-phone, trendy teen dress wear and no interesting in producing anything at a high rate ( viewed this myself ) taking a tour at a tin factory watching people operate machines while texting and taking (while taking a plant tour lol ) .
Remember ESM came into the USA from KMP Kondor Model Products , it was over priced based on him markup . Troy& VQ took over when sales lagged and the planes dropped an avg of $200 in retail cost . So increases now , almost 5 years later are normal and very expected.
While I agree with quality and issues with ESM, I also see quality issues continue with the major brand threads on the newest and highest end of the Hobby, so its still a buyer beware .
The low end was CMP, China Model Products, long gone as a factor in ARFs , they lost the battle to ESM when the prices dropped because why pay $200 to $300 for CMP when ESM was being sold at $300 to $329 for the 70" versions.
The problem with anything from China is MOQ=Minimum Order Quantity and that is what drives cost up when a distributor trys to order, typically they need to order an MOQ =container, and a 20 ft container is so cost prohibitive vs a 40 ft and how many of the guys today want a 40 ft container of anything . So any ARF that is subject to straight containers defined as (non-assorted ) means the Purchaser like Hobbyco, Horizon , Troy/VQ must order a container all factors of cost , increases and planes being discontinued
Some of the obscure designs from ESM are interesting. For example, I wonder how many of the DO 335 have been sold? I am surprised that this design is still available.
05-04-2014, 07:00 AM
#86
Or, as a friend suggests, use aluminum Solartex. Not sure.
Glassing requires so much work afterwards, that ....doing all that work on an ARF where the outline on the fuse is so wrong.....not sure what to do at the moment. Still considering it.
05-04-2014, 07:29 AM
#87
Yes, I am weighting fore and agains what to do now. I could glue on sheets of 0.007 inch G-10 sheets. Then there is no work afterwards.( !!! )
Or, as a friend suggests, use aluminum Solartex. Not sure.
Glassing requires so much work afterwards, that ....doing all that work on an ARF where the outline on the fuse is so wrong.....not sure what to do at the moment. Still considering it.
Or, as a friend suggests, use aluminum Solartex. Not sure.
Glassing requires so much work afterwards, that ....doing all that work on an ARF where the outline on the fuse is so wrong.....not sure what to do at the moment. Still considering it.
I am still finding the polycrylic method to be about as good as it gets. Much easier than resin.
05-08-2014, 10:32 PM
#88
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I just stumbled across the price hike. Was looking at VQ, then had to check Troy Build because I thought Thomas had lost his mind. If you read my signature block its pretty apparent why I fly arfs. I just read the entire thread, and I have to say the 'bashing' arf fliers is getting old. I've built kits back in the mid/late 80's, but that was when I was in jr high, and high school. With kids, work, etc, there just isn't the time and space. While it use to be true that it was cheaper to just get an arf, I don't think that's the case any more, and maybe I will try a kit again some time. One thing I do know, I would rather pay 1/3 (now) the price for CMP (when/if you find them) knowing its needs bashing than forking out a ton of dough for ESM+shipping just to "come to realize it." Kit building is awesome, but hanging out with friend at the field swapping true-ish storied, occasionally interrupted by the obligatory flight now and then, is a valid expression of this hobby I believe. I'm sure back in the day those Kraft guys were taken aback by people who bought that "pre-fab junk radio out of a box," ,,, the more things change...
As for ESM, just like when they were KMP, the price is just not worth it. Its the way of the Hyundai, remember those were cheap cars when they came out. If/when I want to spend that kind of dough, there really is no reason to now go topflight/hangar 9, so much more for your $$ ( if I am to pay Caddy prices, it will then be on a
ing Cadillac) . Its too bad, I wanted the Bearcat and the 190, but now the only esm I have, and likely will ever have, is the Val. Troy Built has some specialty hardware stuff I need, guess I better order it before they go away.
As for ESM, just like when they were KMP, the price is just not worth it. Its the way of the Hyundai, remember those were cheap cars when they came out. If/when I want to spend that kind of dough, there really is no reason to now go topflight/hangar 9, so much more for your $$ ( if I am to pay Caddy prices, it will then be on a
ing Cadillac) . Its too bad, I wanted the Bearcat and the 190, but now the only esm I have, and likely will ever have, is the Val. Troy Built has some specialty hardware stuff I need, guess I better order it before they go away.
Last edited by j301; 05-08-2014 at 10:35 PM.
01-10-2015, 02:39 AM
#92
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Vertical --yes the container issue or MOQ ( mininium order quanity ) is the key challenge with imports, spare parts and the ability to maintain stock on any imported brand.
I think that is why you see Horison , Great PLanes stick with the data that says " P51 is #1 , Corsair is #2 and so on , regardless of all of our personal interest if you look at the data and then you need to finance money against the data you stick with the known popular over done planes because at the end of the day they still sell .
What i cant answer is if spare part support, as an example a cowl is made on its own , so with careful planning VQ and Troy Build should have preorderd cowls ( a very popular spare ) on there first orders of the inventory. I know many guys in this thread would have orderd a cowl at the time they ordered there kits .
Being a CMP ARF guy I really thought my first ESM ( then sold by KMP ) was going to be the Caddy as others have stated but I was disappointed in a corsair with no panel lines in the tail or outer wings , and fuse that had a tin can feel outside of areas supported by Formers.
Its funny because I also fly EPO foam and have two 79" EPO P40 that I have bashed -If you google LX Giant Scale P40 sliding Canopy you can see one on U Tube . While I dont like some of the properties of EPO , the planes feel totally solid in your hands and if glassed and or covered in wood and glassed you have a far superior airframe then the cheap glass coming from China .
I am getting a Brian Taylor 82" Corsair cut in foam , will be doing a build /bash based on the quality of foam and its incredible light wing loading , again for me a better option then cheap glass and at cost of about $225, I wont mind the time to assemble a modular design from foam to glass finish .
I know many will cringe lol , but the attached photos are some of my epo planes , mant have functinal canopys with Fergelli powered servos, scratch built interiors, custom made retracts and hand painted markings , so its all a matter of what you do with the model I prefer a good starting point if I am paying $500 for an ARF
I think that is why you see Horison , Great PLanes stick with the data that says " P51 is #1 , Corsair is #2 and so on , regardless of all of our personal interest if you look at the data and then you need to finance money against the data you stick with the known popular over done planes because at the end of the day they still sell .
What i cant answer is if spare part support, as an example a cowl is made on its own , so with careful planning VQ and Troy Build should have preorderd cowls ( a very popular spare ) on there first orders of the inventory. I know many guys in this thread would have orderd a cowl at the time they ordered there kits .
Being a CMP ARF guy I really thought my first ESM ( then sold by KMP ) was going to be the Caddy as others have stated but I was disappointed in a corsair with no panel lines in the tail or outer wings , and fuse that had a tin can feel outside of areas supported by Formers.
Its funny because I also fly EPO foam and have two 79" EPO P40 that I have bashed -If you google LX Giant Scale P40 sliding Canopy you can see one on U Tube . While I dont like some of the properties of EPO , the planes feel totally solid in your hands and if glassed and or covered in wood and glassed you have a far superior airframe then the cheap glass coming from China .
I am getting a Brian Taylor 82" Corsair cut in foam , will be doing a build /bash based on the quality of foam and its incredible light wing loading , again for me a better option then cheap glass and at cost of about $225, I wont mind the time to assemble a modular design from foam to glass finish .
I know many will cringe lol , but the attached photos are some of my epo planes , mant have functinal canopys with Fergelli powered servos, scratch built interiors, custom made retracts and hand painted markings , so its all a matter of what you do with the model I prefer a good starting point if I am paying $500 for an ARF
01-11-2015, 02:17 PM
#93
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RC Market is changing
Greetings everyone,
I wanted to chime in on this discussion about ESM products. Everyone is declaring the company and it's products a poor value now. I wish to take this moment to remind everyone how our RC market is changing. Take a look at all of the RC companies who used to offer airframes that went away... Now you have many choices of electric foam models. CMP has gone silent, KMP no longer offers large warbirds of anykind, Yellow aircraft, Sig, the list can go on and on. I used to work for KMP for several years on the incoming phone lines and in 2009, I personally sold a quarter million dollars of ESM birds at prices higher than what you see today. What has gone wrong? Perhaps a little insight into trends. KMP had the ESM line for 5 years before the mid 2009 breakup. Keep in mind it takes several teams of people and several different companies and the Chinese and American governments to get one of these products to your door. ALL HOLDING THEIR HANDS OUT FOR THE PIECE OF PROVERBIAL PIE! I remember the phone call from Andrew Kondor in regards to the issues at hand. He was importing 40 ft. containers of the planes every two months into the US during the high point of this ESM business, all being sold under the KMP name. He went to China, and taught them what the American modeler wanted and when they got big enough, they thought they could take over and teach us how it is done and pretty much gave Andrew an Ultimatum, "lower the prices by almost half and get rid of the dealer distribution and go direct to the modeler" He could see the handwriting on the wall and he refused hence, Troybuilt Models accepted their business plan and off we went with another importer.
The biggest problem with this is that Andrew had the prices set to be able to afford to support the line with parts and expertise. Only rarely did any of KMP's customers not get the required parts in a timely manner until after the breakup. WHY? because he was committed to supply parts even if he had to break up new kits to get them to the customer. Under the new plan, this went away. As a matter of fact, Troybuilt business plan wasn't thought out enough to be able to make money at this game and ultimately, the consumer started suffering. They couldn't afford to break up new kits, the profits were very low, China didn't supply the parts readily, and who in their right mind will stock a full part warehouse for all of these planes. It was dilemma unfolding now that was sown in 2009. Did you know it costs a good $100 per plane to import them in a container? Add that to the bottom line. The Chinese expected us to go crazy with buying the volumes they expected, instead the whole plan bit them in the rear because now, ESM hasn't sent a part or container back into the US for a year now. The question really is, do you think they will??? Where does the core of this current day problem lie, With ESM? With Troybuilt? With the general market depression? Where do you point a finger?? Does buyer apathy play a part?
As a modeler, I loved the models. They were the best sold as KMP products, but without someone looking over Chinese shoulders, the details suffers some as well as the occaisional poorly made model comes into the picture as the Chinese gear up for mass production. Personally, I don't like monokote or plastic unscale looking film of anykind on my planes. The ESM model was painted with a scale looking finish that you could clean with MEK. Most of the time, no wrinkles and they always flew great with the design engineering behind how they were made. Look at any ESM dealer's inventory... it is very scant, and anyone making a preorder on the pretext of delivery this spring may and I say MAY have a surprise in store for them. For those of you putting your money in planes with free delivery, and wood models with monokote coverings, the costs do not change to get them to your door. If it is free, the plane is really really cheap somewhere. It is only my opinion, but they just don' hold a candle to composite construction and painted models. Look what pros in our hobby do, build out of wood then glass and detail the plane. For those of us who do not have the time, but want the beauty of strength and glassing, Composites are the best for me, BUT, they cost more and I am willing to pay it to have something stand out at the field to be proud of...
There is a New Company out trying their Wings, Top RC Models A full composite designer. There is hope still for a beautiful creation, and value.
I wanted to chime in on this discussion about ESM products. Everyone is declaring the company and it's products a poor value now. I wish to take this moment to remind everyone how our RC market is changing. Take a look at all of the RC companies who used to offer airframes that went away... Now you have many choices of electric foam models. CMP has gone silent, KMP no longer offers large warbirds of anykind, Yellow aircraft, Sig, the list can go on and on. I used to work for KMP for several years on the incoming phone lines and in 2009, I personally sold a quarter million dollars of ESM birds at prices higher than what you see today. What has gone wrong? Perhaps a little insight into trends. KMP had the ESM line for 5 years before the mid 2009 breakup. Keep in mind it takes several teams of people and several different companies and the Chinese and American governments to get one of these products to your door. ALL HOLDING THEIR HANDS OUT FOR THE PIECE OF PROVERBIAL PIE! I remember the phone call from Andrew Kondor in regards to the issues at hand. He was importing 40 ft. containers of the planes every two months into the US during the high point of this ESM business, all being sold under the KMP name. He went to China, and taught them what the American modeler wanted and when they got big enough, they thought they could take over and teach us how it is done and pretty much gave Andrew an Ultimatum, "lower the prices by almost half and get rid of the dealer distribution and go direct to the modeler" He could see the handwriting on the wall and he refused hence, Troybuilt Models accepted their business plan and off we went with another importer.
The biggest problem with this is that Andrew had the prices set to be able to afford to support the line with parts and expertise. Only rarely did any of KMP's customers not get the required parts in a timely manner until after the breakup. WHY? because he was committed to supply parts even if he had to break up new kits to get them to the customer. Under the new plan, this went away. As a matter of fact, Troybuilt business plan wasn't thought out enough to be able to make money at this game and ultimately, the consumer started suffering. They couldn't afford to break up new kits, the profits were very low, China didn't supply the parts readily, and who in their right mind will stock a full part warehouse for all of these planes. It was dilemma unfolding now that was sown in 2009. Did you know it costs a good $100 per plane to import them in a container? Add that to the bottom line. The Chinese expected us to go crazy with buying the volumes they expected, instead the whole plan bit them in the rear because now, ESM hasn't sent a part or container back into the US for a year now. The question really is, do you think they will??? Where does the core of this current day problem lie, With ESM? With Troybuilt? With the general market depression? Where do you point a finger?? Does buyer apathy play a part?
As a modeler, I loved the models. They were the best sold as KMP products, but without someone looking over Chinese shoulders, the details suffers some as well as the occaisional poorly made model comes into the picture as the Chinese gear up for mass production. Personally, I don't like monokote or plastic unscale looking film of anykind on my planes. The ESM model was painted with a scale looking finish that you could clean with MEK. Most of the time, no wrinkles and they always flew great with the design engineering behind how they were made. Look at any ESM dealer's inventory... it is very scant, and anyone making a preorder on the pretext of delivery this spring may and I say MAY have a surprise in store for them. For those of you putting your money in planes with free delivery, and wood models with monokote coverings, the costs do not change to get them to your door. If it is free, the plane is really really cheap somewhere. It is only my opinion, but they just don' hold a candle to composite construction and painted models. Look what pros in our hobby do, build out of wood then glass and detail the plane. For those of us who do not have the time, but want the beauty of strength and glassing, Composites are the best for me, BUT, they cost more and I am willing to pay it to have something stand out at the field to be proud of...
There is a New Company out trying their Wings, Top RC Models A full composite designer. There is hope still for a beautiful creation, and value.
Last edited by flytaildragger; 01-11-2015 at 02:59 PM.
01-11-2015, 05:38 PM
#95
My Feedback: (15)
I agree with about 95% of your post your dead on with the history and problems and I personally purchased from Andrew and you personally work on my retracts for my ESM corsair .
I disagree with the quality that existed under ESM managed by KMP . I do agree that Andrew and your business model is dead on having to manage the China factories and be there pre -mid and post production but KMP still had QC issues and at some point it was the modelers issues .
My Corsair was my First KMP plane and franly I know the glassing method was differant then the material used in CMP but not $300 differant and in fact the tin canning effiect in non supported areas of the fuse , the lifting of the glass in the mid wing center section were all sub par manuafcturing while under the directive of KMP and at a Cost of $475 for a 75" Corsair .
So part of the problem with KMP and its cost were that the discerning modeler did not see the benifits of the projected features sold under the KMP brand .
As far as retracts they were the biggest debacle ever sold by KMP and the QC continued well into Troy Build peddeling there version 1 thru 3.5 electric retracts .
So I am sorry while I think KMP/ESM was better then CMP , but not $300 better .
Again nothing personal all business from a guy who imports over 100 Million in consumer goods from China , I know the model and would never get into the Hobby Business for some many reasons , but I know for a fact that you need an office in China and you need to be in the facilties at leaste three times during any production run .
I disagree with the quality that existed under ESM managed by KMP . I do agree that Andrew and your business model is dead on having to manage the China factories and be there pre -mid and post production but KMP still had QC issues and at some point it was the modelers issues .
My Corsair was my First KMP plane and franly I know the glassing method was differant then the material used in CMP but not $300 differant and in fact the tin canning effiect in non supported areas of the fuse , the lifting of the glass in the mid wing center section were all sub par manuafcturing while under the directive of KMP and at a Cost of $475 for a 75" Corsair .
So part of the problem with KMP and its cost were that the discerning modeler did not see the benifits of the projected features sold under the KMP brand .
As far as retracts they were the biggest debacle ever sold by KMP and the QC continued well into Troy Build peddeling there version 1 thru 3.5 electric retracts .
So I am sorry while I think KMP/ESM was better then CMP , but not $300 better .
Again nothing personal all business from a guy who imports over 100 Million in consumer goods from China , I know the model and would never get into the Hobby Business for some many reasons , but I know for a fact that you need an office in China and you need to be in the facilties at leaste three times during any production run .
