Gas vs Electric in ESM 75" Corsair
10-28-2015, 01:13 AM
#26
I fly an 85" 30 lb Thunderbolt that was electric when I aquired it. I have since converted it to a DLE55. Originally it used 4 x 5 cell 5000mah batteries in a 2P10 configuration. I much prefer it on petrol, but if you want a more in depth report on my experience check out this thread -
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-w...h-build-4.html
My involvement in this thread starts about half way down page 4. It details prep for a large comp with the model on electric and then the conversion process along with my observations on the differences. Having flown the same model on both types of power allows as fair a comparison as you will get.
The model is still flying actively and I certainly don't regret changing from electric.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-w...h-build-4.html
My involvement in this thread starts about half way down page 4. It details prep for a large comp with the model on electric and then the conversion process along with my observations on the differences. Having flown the same model on both types of power allows as fair a comparison as you will get.
The model is still flying actively and I certainly don't regret changing from electric.
10-28-2015, 03:02 AM
#27
Tevans can you please tell me how much weigh the plane needed on the nose with the 35 to achieve the CG , nice details and nice flying.
Boltman thank you, will go to the thread now, I could not ask for a better conversion example, thank you.
Thanks everyone, this thread has been a great help especially with some mind provoking thoughts on how to power the ignition system.
Boltman thank you, will go to the thread now, I could not ask for a better conversion example, thank you.
Thanks everyone, this thread has been a great help especially with some mind provoking thoughts on how to power the ignition system.
10-28-2015, 11:49 AM
#28
LDM, I had an ESM Hellcat, 72" wingspan, wtg. about 18.3 lbs. Powered by a G-38 w/magnito. Power was just enough for scale flight. I used a 3,000 ma Nimah battery mounted on the firewall above the engine. Just made cg w/o having to add weight. Engine weighted 74 oz. Use the 3,000 ma battery because I needed the weight up front. Corsair is very similar re cg. So you will need all the weight you can get up front. I'm not sure if Life batteries can take the heat and vibration in the engine compartment. It had Sierra gear which worked great. Lost plane because of radio failure.
On planes that don't need the weight up front, I use Life 2S batteries, about 2,100 ma as they are lighter than similar ma Nimahs. Good for 6-7 flights or more. I use a regulator to step down to 5 volts because I have been told that is easier on the electronic ignitions, because a fully charged 2S Life can be over 7.4 volts (I think). I use seperate batteries for radio and ignition.
Use a three line fuel system with a good in tank Walbro filter. I use a filler line with a screw on cap. I have found that all a small filter in the tank to carb line does is create a potential for leaks and with the small filter fuel flow can be reduced by just a little crud and cause engine outs. Ask me how I know this.
On planes that don't need the weight up front, I use Life 2S batteries, about 2,100 ma as they are lighter than similar ma Nimahs. Good for 6-7 flights or more. I use a regulator to step down to 5 volts because I have been told that is easier on the electronic ignitions, because a fully charged 2S Life can be over 7.4 volts (I think). I use seperate batteries for radio and ignition.
Use a three line fuel system with a good in tank Walbro filter. I use a filler line with a screw on cap. I have found that all a small filter in the tank to carb line does is create a potential for leaks and with the small filter fuel flow can be reduced by just a little crud and cause engine outs. Ask me how I know this.
10-28-2015, 01:58 PM
#29
Thanks Bean, I am expecting the Corsair to be in that area as far as weight.
If you read back thru the thread you can already see at leaste 4 options so it can be confusiing to a newbee in gas. Life options, Nicad options, single power options for both ignition and radio system, seems like a lot of options.
If you read back thru the thread you can already see at leaste 4 options so it can be confusiing to a newbee in gas. Life options, Nicad options, single power options for both ignition and radio system, seems like a lot of options.
10-28-2015, 03:33 PM
#30
Thanks Bean, I am expecting the Corsair to be in that area as far as weight.
If you read back thru the thread you can already see at leaste 4 options so it can be confusiing to a newbee in gas. Life options, Nicad options, single power options for both ignition and radio system, seems like a lot of options.
If you read back thru the thread you can already see at leaste 4 options so it can be confusiing to a newbee in gas. Life options, Nicad options, single power options for both ignition and radio system, seems like a lot of options.
10-28-2015, 03:38 PM
#31
I am leaning in the following direction
1) engines that can power and serve for some of the CG required weight. So 35 min, all the way to a 55.
2)Most likely go Life because they seem to provide the most amount of flight time with the leaste amount of chargeing.
1) engines that can power and serve for some of the CG required weight. So 35 min, all the way to a 55.
2)Most likely go Life because they seem to provide the most amount of flight time with the leaste amount of chargeing.
10-28-2015, 04:17 PM
#32
LDM-
I added about 18 ozs of lead and (2) 15 oz 3000 mAh 5 cell NiCd's for nose weight. I have the NiCd's hanging in side the cowl at 10 and 2 o'clock. I ran each battery lead into 2 separate switches. Those switches run straight into a Smartfly Batshare which then plugs into the battery terminal of the receiver. This way you have redundancy for some type of electrical failure in the battery or switches...a must for large expensive planes. The battery type is for you to choose. They don't even have to match. I just chose to use SR Batteries NiCd's for their weight. Most of my nose weight is 6000 mAh electrical power which makes a lot of sense to me and it is providing the redundancy I like to fly all weekend at a fly-in without having to recharge batteries. Hope this helps with your decision making.
I added about 18 ozs of lead and (2) 15 oz 3000 mAh 5 cell NiCd's for nose weight. I have the NiCd's hanging in side the cowl at 10 and 2 o'clock. I ran each battery lead into 2 separate switches. Those switches run straight into a Smartfly Batshare which then plugs into the battery terminal of the receiver. This way you have redundancy for some type of electrical failure in the battery or switches...a must for large expensive planes. The battery type is for you to choose. They don't even have to match. I just chose to use SR Batteries NiCd's for their weight. Most of my nose weight is 6000 mAh electrical power which makes a lot of sense to me and it is providing the redundancy I like to fly all weekend at a fly-in without having to recharge batteries. Hope this helps with your decision making.
10-28-2015, 06:21 PM
#34
My preference would be gas but sometimes the Electric power is more practical.. One advantage they have is no vibration and they are easier to cool than gas. The battery access does often pose problems on an ARF but can be built to accommodate from a kit build or ARF bash.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKavOtcX8V4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKavOtcX8V4
Last edited by TheRickster; 10-28-2015 at 06:52 PM.
10-29-2015, 04:20 AM
#37
Rick great work, incredible piece of engineering !
I am not opposed to eletric and most of my current planes are eletric but for me the dividing line comes down to wing loading and weight of epower in the larger planes, run time, charging time.
I will be building a Brian Taylor 82" Corsair this winter from foam, wood sheeted that will be 100% epower. Howeever I know my weight and wing loading will be significantly less then the esm corsair.
I am not opposed to eletric and most of my current planes are eletric but for me the dividing line comes down to wing loading and weight of epower in the larger planes, run time, charging time.
I will be building a Brian Taylor 82" Corsair this winter from foam, wood sheeted that will be 100% epower. Howeever I know my weight and wing loading will be significantly less then the esm corsair.
10-31-2015, 05:09 AM
#38
Matt, after indepth research online , not one of these ESM planes will come in under 17lbs.Some are real hogs at 21lbs . Found one of the local builds that made it into the press for its scale detail and that was 22 lbs eletric.Most gas versions are 17 to 19 so yes the wing loading is high but they are reported to fly really well despite the wing loading.So I am narrowing my choices to a 55 or see if I can keep it to 17 lbs and look at an onboard eletric start gas 35 reported to fly this plane with ease.
11-01-2015, 07:57 AM
#39
I've flown just about everything under the sun at one point or another and can see the benefit of both.
As far as your charge setup if it's taking you an hour you need an upgrade.
I use the power lab 8 and now the power lab 8 dual.
I can put on 8 6s 5000 mah packs and charge them in 25 minutes at 2c
I also have gotten to the point where I just don't care for the sound of a two stroke gas engine, it sounds like a weed wacker to me and I'd much rather just hear the prop.
I did the sound system thing and while cool I don't really see the need for it either, just more weight and cost.
It's also awesome not to have to start a gas engine, no tuning or break in, no vibration
As you know part of the art of flying electric is learning to fly effiecent, you can't just go full power if you want a good flight time, throttle managment is the name of the game and it's something I've learned to enjoy as it makes the flight more scale.
Flight times are not as good, that is true....but 7 to 8 minutes should not be an issue.
I'd go with a hacker A60-16L and a 20x15 prop on 12s 5000 mah....it's light and fast.
keep the plane light
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRk4Lemq_dw
As far as your charge setup if it's taking you an hour you need an upgrade.
I use the power lab 8 and now the power lab 8 dual.
I can put on 8 6s 5000 mah packs and charge them in 25 minutes at 2c
I also have gotten to the point where I just don't care for the sound of a two stroke gas engine, it sounds like a weed wacker to me and I'd much rather just hear the prop.
I did the sound system thing and while cool I don't really see the need for it either, just more weight and cost.
It's also awesome not to have to start a gas engine, no tuning or break in, no vibration
As you know part of the art of flying electric is learning to fly effiecent, you can't just go full power if you want a good flight time, throttle managment is the name of the game and it's something I've learned to enjoy as it makes the flight more scale.
Flight times are not as good, that is true....but 7 to 8 minutes should not be an issue.
I'd go with a hacker A60-16L and a 20x15 prop on 12s 5000 mah....it's light and fast.
keep the plane light
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRk4Lemq_dw
11-01-2015, 08:51 AM
#40
I do enjoy electric warbirds, but not for the big ones. My issues are short flight times and dealing with battery management....recharging time, fear of fires, etc. Also the relatively high cost of batteries/chargers compared to gas fuel. Your example of 8 6s 5000 packs charging at once costs at least $2000. That's a lot of gas/oil.
But, your plane sure looks good and flys great.
But, your plane sure looks good and flys great.
11-01-2015, 11:02 AM
#41
Thank you
My example of 8 - 6s packs charging was just that an example.
I only bring 4 -6s 5000 now a days that about $400 in pack that if taken care of well can last 3-5 years.
I charge all 4 while I'm setting up my planes (25 min) then just rotate them as I fly all day.... It's hard to keep up with the charger as I take small breaks between flights
also I add in a smaller plane with 3s or 4s packs and fly until I've had my fill
but agree it's not for everyone and love to see everyone doing what makes them happy, I've done gas and it was great
just enjoy the tech and different type of flight from electric
My example of 8 - 6s packs charging was just that an example.
I only bring 4 -6s 5000 now a days that about $400 in pack that if taken care of well can last 3-5 years.
I charge all 4 while I'm setting up my planes (25 min) then just rotate them as I fly all day.... It's hard to keep up with the charger as I take small breaks between flights
also I add in a smaller plane with 3s or 4s packs and fly until I've had my fill
but agree it's not for everyone and love to see everyone doing what makes them happy, I've done gas and it was great
just enjoy the tech and different type of flight from electric
11-01-2015, 05:34 PM
#42
Ron I have a lot of respect for your work and have also seen your excellant P51 in action .
I have three differant chargers and in reality can charge up to 6 packs at one time.
As far as charging them in 25 mins, I wont do that simply based on my lack of total e-knowledge at this time. At our club out of 50 members 5 fly electric and only two anything over 60" . So getting first experience is really left to trial and error and what I can find online.
Electric in my opinion is the leaste forgiving in the RC world when one simple wrong plug or sequence can ruin a system.
I also have learned from trial and error with along with a Watt meter that many of the online specs and ARF in eletric power have never really been tested in the proper manner. So you can be left with a strained ESC/BEC and system failure.
Also props as you know in the $75 plus range are not a simple low cost trial and error to determine proper motor load, thats an expensive test !
As far as the corsair I have a A60 14L according to the specs (yet to be tested by me ) it should easily fly this corsair on 2x5 cells packs and even better on 2x6cells packs.
I fly many birds in the 65" range so I have a good supply of 6 cell packs and a modeate amount of 5 cells packs. So if I choose to go epower I should be set.
However the original challenge /question still stands when I am the field and see many of esn planes all flying gas most based on all up weight.
The lightest I have seen the esm corsair is 17 lbs and heaviest was the well publicized build by Sean( stickly scale -sign on name ) at 21lbs . If I end up going gas I think I pick up about 3 pounds with a DLE 55 and no added weight needed ( all functional weight ) .
I know I can manage flight times with lipos and have done so but nothing beats gas on the ability to fly long in one outing.
Last comment as far as cost of lipos I started with Thunder power and would never have progresed at the cost of the TP batterys. I have proven to myself with real world field use not abuse that there are many low cost great options in lipo that perform and last.
So right now I am leaning towards gas, I am going to look at some more options this week
I have three differant chargers and in reality can charge up to 6 packs at one time.
As far as charging them in 25 mins, I wont do that simply based on my lack of total e-knowledge at this time. At our club out of 50 members 5 fly electric and only two anything over 60" . So getting first experience is really left to trial and error and what I can find online.
Electric in my opinion is the leaste forgiving in the RC world when one simple wrong plug or sequence can ruin a system.
I also have learned from trial and error with along with a Watt meter that many of the online specs and ARF in eletric power have never really been tested in the proper manner. So you can be left with a strained ESC/BEC and system failure.
Also props as you know in the $75 plus range are not a simple low cost trial and error to determine proper motor load, thats an expensive test !
As far as the corsair I have a A60 14L according to the specs (yet to be tested by me ) it should easily fly this corsair on 2x5 cells packs and even better on 2x6cells packs.
I fly many birds in the 65" range so I have a good supply of 6 cell packs and a modeate amount of 5 cells packs. So if I choose to go epower I should be set.
However the original challenge /question still stands when I am the field and see many of esn planes all flying gas most based on all up weight.
The lightest I have seen the esm corsair is 17 lbs and heaviest was the well publicized build by Sean( stickly scale -sign on name ) at 21lbs . If I end up going gas I think I pick up about 3 pounds with a DLE 55 and no added weight needed ( all functional weight ) .
I know I can manage flight times with lipos and have done so but nothing beats gas on the ability to fly long in one outing.
Last comment as far as cost of lipos I started with Thunder power and would never have progresed at the cost of the TP batterys. I have proven to myself with real world field use not abuse that there are many low cost great options in lipo that perform and last.
So right now I am leaning towards gas, I am going to look at some more options this week
Last edited by LDM; 11-01-2015 at 05:36 PM.
11-01-2015, 10:45 PM
#43
I was using the PowerLab 8 to charge 4 x 5 cell 5000mah packs and to do that in under 40 minutes needed a power source that I could draw 40 amps out of. Where I fly that sort of power source is not readily available. This another of the reasons for me my P-47 is more practical on the DLE 55.
Last edited by BOLTMAN; 11-01-2015 at 10:47 PM.
11-02-2015, 05:52 AM
#45
Having power at the field is a problem for me too. I've tried running smaller chargers off a lead acid battery and that doesn't even work very well.
A local club installed a solar power system to provide power for electric flyers.
http://jayhawkmodelmasters.com/newsl...tter_05-15.pdf
A local club installed a solar power system to provide power for electric flyers.
http://jayhawkmodelmasters.com/newsl...tter_05-15.pdf
11-02-2015, 11:15 PM
#47
The ESM is not an easy plane to do electric with unless you mod it in a significant way. Gas is a good option in your situation.
Keep in mind however, the "sweet spot" for electric warbirds is pushing larger and larger right now. 30CC is dead easy to do in electric and not expensive. 30cc is the mid range now. My 30CC Spitfire weighs the same as a similarly equipped gas version. I just carry around a lot less lead ballast that's all. And truth be told, my 30CC spitfire on electric is probably the easiest "larger" airplane I own to set up at the field and fly day in and day out. There is hardly anything to do on setup except enjoy the aircraft in flight. It's a perfect electric warbird IMHO at 82" span and 20 pounds with as much power as a 50cc powered one.
50CC is perfectly viable as well. Once you are already set up for multiple 5000mah, 6s packs, you can easily push into 60-65CC range using 4 packs in a 2s, 2p arrangement (12s, 10,000mah) provided you have the wing area. But admittedly, this is starting to cross the range of practicality for most. The 60CC H9 Corsair is one of these types of planes as all the weight needs to be on the nose and the electric version with a sound system can be the same weight as the gas version.
Really, for most folks these days at 50cc and below, the only limitation on gas vs electric is the question of weather the ARF has a electric ready battery hatch. Because, if you are building, then the modification of this battery hatch area is as easy to do as anything else. Everything else is just preference.
Keep in mind however, the "sweet spot" for electric warbirds is pushing larger and larger right now. 30CC is dead easy to do in electric and not expensive. 30cc is the mid range now. My 30CC Spitfire weighs the same as a similarly equipped gas version. I just carry around a lot less lead ballast that's all. And truth be told, my 30CC spitfire on electric is probably the easiest "larger" airplane I own to set up at the field and fly day in and day out. There is hardly anything to do on setup except enjoy the aircraft in flight. It's a perfect electric warbird IMHO at 82" span and 20 pounds with as much power as a 50cc powered one.
50CC is perfectly viable as well. Once you are already set up for multiple 5000mah, 6s packs, you can easily push into 60-65CC range using 4 packs in a 2s, 2p arrangement (12s, 10,000mah) provided you have the wing area. But admittedly, this is starting to cross the range of practicality for most. The 60CC H9 Corsair is one of these types of planes as all the weight needs to be on the nose and the electric version with a sound system can be the same weight as the gas version.
Really, for most folks these days at 50cc and below, the only limitation on gas vs electric is the question of weather the ARF has a electric ready battery hatch. Because, if you are building, then the modification of this battery hatch area is as easy to do as anything else. Everything else is just preference.
11-03-2015, 04:31 AM
#48
Modding ARFs for me are the easy part of the equation. The plan is two slots in the firewall for two 5 cell packs. The packs would slide to adjust CG .
The esc would go above the motor HD BEC behind the firewall.
Cowl would have two access doors hindged.
The only unknown if I go epower is 2x5 or 2x6.That would determine the size of the firewall cuts.
i can't take credit for any of this plan it's all be done and posted online.
Howevet many of the club members still swear by gas as the easiest to operate in a plane this size with its inherent wing loading.
i have a Brian Taylor 82" corsair cut in foam.
i plan on a "Jack Devine " type build 100% epower because I know the wing loading will be lighter then the ESM
The esc would go above the motor HD BEC behind the firewall.
Cowl would have two access doors hindged.
The only unknown if I go epower is 2x5 or 2x6.That would determine the size of the firewall cuts.
i can't take credit for any of this plan it's all be done and posted online.
Howevet many of the club members still swear by gas as the easiest to operate in a plane this size with its inherent wing loading.
i have a Brian Taylor 82" corsair cut in foam.
i plan on a "Jack Devine " type build 100% epower because I know the wing loading will be lighter then the ESM
11-07-2015, 05:07 AM
#49
Thank you everyone for your opinions and knowledge.
I am picking up a DLE 55RA and going to use a LIFE battery.
I went to two differant Hobby Shops that sell a ton of eletric power and opinions from both were as follows. Glow was great, fuel became very expensive and everyone went to electric. Gas was introduced into the smaller formats as well as more options at the larger formats and people started converting epower to gas. Both stated "just a trend" not the rule, not the law but " we now sell more gas" then any other option. Also run time was noted by both as the most enjoyable with gas with the leaste amount of prep time.
Thanks
LDM
I am picking up a DLE 55RA and going to use a LIFE battery.
I went to two differant Hobby Shops that sell a ton of eletric power and opinions from both were as follows. Glow was great, fuel became very expensive and everyone went to electric. Gas was introduced into the smaller formats as well as more options at the larger formats and people started converting epower to gas. Both stated "just a trend" not the rule, not the law but " we now sell more gas" then any other option. Also run time was noted by both as the most enjoyable with gas with the leaste amount of prep time.
Thanks
LDM
