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*Seagull Westland Lysander*

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Old 07-19-2017, 01:34 PM
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalenB View Post
In this case the factory screwed up royally. The recommended CG is simply wrong. Fly2XS (Scott), dmyers0403, and I have all done research on the CG issue and have all concluded, and successfully flown, our Lysanders at a more appropriate CG. At least 27-35mm further back than factory, and in dmyers0403 case, much further back. You should also look at the manual for the 126" Phoenix Lysander at TowerHobbies.com and compare that factory CG to the Seagull CG. Theirs is way farther back than is the Seagull recommendation. How can that be? The planes are about the same size and have the same double taper wing -- simple -- the Seagull recommendation is wrong.
I know moving the CG back goes against everything you know about setting the CG of a new plane, but in this case moving it back is the right thing to do. The plane will fly, glide, and land much better at a more aft CG.
Your plane will fly at the forward CG -- it just won't fly well, and you might not have enough elevator authority to raise the nose for landing. If you persist with the factory CG at least setup double the recommended elevator throw so you have a chance of getting the nose
up for landing. At least one maiden flight ended poorly because of the wrong CG and too little elevator throw.
Yourplane will likely need to fly much faster than needed to get enough airflow over the elevators to give them enough authority the overcome the too forward CG. This is not good for take offs and landings.
When properly setup this plane is a joy to fly -- slow and stable, and will draw a crowd where ever you take it as it is so unusual. Every weekend my flying club members ask me: "Where's the Lysander?" when I don't bring it out.
so do I balance this with no wings on or try to get ahold of my buddy and use that electrical balancerand measure everything over again
I do understand what you're saying and it makes sense I just never set a plane up like that before thanks for your Tom
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Old 08-01-2017, 10:04 AM
  #202
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Default Back in the saddle again!

FEDEX just delivered my repaired FG60-R3 and I'm almost ready to fly "The Sequel". I've added my MRS Exhaust Collector Ring and it still fits under the shortened cowl!

Special thanks to Leo Spychalla for accommodating me in buying one of his kits. It went together QUICKLY the second time!
This time I put my tail wheel servo under the tail wheel hatch in back. as my 1st Lysander was still a little nose heavy.

Thanks as well to Callie @ Callie Graphix for getting my new markings out so quickly!
I'll get my test flight in then I can start dressing Lizzie up for show for Owatonna & Fond Du Lac!

If you have not flown yours as yet, talk to the guys here who have. Its a great airplane and when its set-up right, is a ball to fly!
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Old 08-01-2017, 10:24 AM
  #203
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Mine (PHX) balanced fine right at the LE of the wing behind the cockpit at the fuse. I used stands under the wings at the first hardpoint (aileron hatch) to balance. (Its kinda like the old method of picking the wing up with w your fingers at the tips) BTW - it took 6 oz in the tail for the CG.
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Old 08-01-2017, 07:03 PM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt G View Post
Mine (PHX) balanced fine right at the LE of the wing behind the cockpit at the fuse. I used stands under the wings at the first hardpoint (aileron hatch) to balance. (Its kinda like the old method of picking the wing up with w your fingers at the tips) BTW - it took 6 oz in the tail for the CG.
How did it fly?
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Old 08-02-2017, 12:49 PM
  #205
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Here's video from a few wee ago (thanks Chris)
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Old 08-07-2017, 05:29 AM
  #206
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Default Westand Lysander first take off

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalenB View Post
In this case the factory screwed up royally. The recommended CG is simply wrong. Fly2XS (Scott), dmyers0403, and I have all done research on the CG issue and have all concluded, and successfully flown, our Lysanders at a more appropriate CG. At least 27-35mm further back than factory, and in dmyers0403 case, much further back. You should also look at the manual for the 126" Phoenix Lysander at TowerHobbies.com and compare that factory CG to the Seagull CG. Theirs is way farther back than is the Seagull recommendation. How can that be? The planes are about the same size and have the same double taper wing -- simple -- the Seagull recommendation is wrong.
I know moving the CG back goes against everything you know about setting the CG of a new plane, but in this case moving it back is the right thing to do. The plane will fly, glide, and land much better at a more aft CG.
Your plane will fly at the forward CG -- it just won't fly well, and you might not have enough elevator authority to raise the nose for landing. If you persist with the factory CG at least setup double the recommended elevator throw so you have a chance of getting the nose
up for landing. At least one maiden flight ended poorly because of the wrong CG and too little elevator throw.
Yourplane will likely need to fly much faster than needed to get enough airflow over the elevators to give them enough authority the overcome the too forward CG. This is not good for take offs and landings.
When properly setup this plane is a joy to fly -- slow and stable, and will draw a crowd where ever you take it as it is so unusual. Every weekend my flying club members ask me: "Where's the Lysander?" when I don't bring it out.
the first take off did not go well it didn't even get off the ground Galen I had to try it and it didn't work and I appreciate your help. So now I have to take the weight out of the cow or find me a new call and start over again I broke the wheel pants and bent the wing to a little bit which I think I can straighten and broke the problem it could have been worse. So I'm asking for your help now would you know where I could find a cowl.
why doesn't the factory change the the CG so people wouldn't have to experience this if I would not have read up on it I would have not known anything about where you guys are putting the CG.
thanks again Galen
Tom
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Old 08-07-2017, 06:20 AM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttmv321 View Post
the first take off did not go well it didn't even get off the ground Galen I had to try it and it didn't work and I appreciate your help. So now I have to take the weight out of the cow or find me a new call and start over again I broke the wheel pants and bent the wing to a little bit which I think I can straighten and broke the problem it could have been worse. So I'm asking for your help now would you know where I could find a cowl.
why doesn't the factory change the the CG so people wouldn't have to experience this if I would not have read up on it I would have not known anything about where you guys are putting the CG.
thanks again Galen
Tom
Hi Tom,
I'm sorry to hear about your experience.
I have an extra cowl I had shipped from Vietnam. Let's chat off-line through the PM.
Scott
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Old 08-07-2017, 06:51 AM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly2XS View Post
Hi Tom,
I'm sorry to hear about your experience.
I have an extra cowl I had shipped from Vietnam. Let's chat off-line through the PM.
Scott
that sounds good let me know how you want to be contacted
Tom
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Old 08-07-2017, 07:24 AM
  #209
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that sounds good let me know how you want to be contacted
Tom
Tom,
Check your RC Universe Private Messages!
Scott
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Old 08-09-2017, 07:21 AM
  #210
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Question: How do I post images to RC Universe now? I do not see the simple upload anymore.

I flew my Lizzie 2 last night and learned an interesting lesson.
  • My 1st Lysander had the Saito FG60R3 mounted 1/4" off the firewall, used the stock exhaust and had the ignition mounted to the firewall. The thrust line was modified by (2) washers behind the upper left mounting screw and (1) washer behind the lower left mounting screw. The tail wheel servo was mounted in the stock location. Lizzie-1 only needed 3 click of up trim to fly perfectly.
  • Lizzie-2 has the Saito FG60R3 mounted 3/4" further forward (1" off the firewall, uses the MRS Exhaust collector Ring (2 ounces heavier than stock) and has the ignition module mounted behind the firewall. The full size tail wheel servo was moved to the tail wheel. I did not modify the thrust line and mounted the engine square to the firewall. It was nearly too nose heavy to take off. I needed a lot of stick to get it up and over half my available up trim to fly level.
I will have to add some weight to the tail to get it to fly as well as Lizzie 1 did as well as add some down thrust back into the engine mounting.

The German "Meier-Ringschalldämpfer" ( MRS ) exhaust collector was fantastic! The sound was deeper but definitely quieter than the stock system. Some people think the sound is better than the KELEO exhaust ring.

Here's the URL for the German Web Site:
https://www.meier-ringschalldaempfer.com/

Here's the YouTube video for a sound check:

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Old 08-14-2017, 02:19 PM
  #211
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I had my maiden fight with my Lysander yesterday and everything went well. I like the way it flies very well. it takes off in a short distance and I only had to put 4 oz back by the tell Will to get a balance
thank you Scott and Galen B I appreciate your help. Tom
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:30 AM
  #212
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Congratulations Tom!
That is exciting!
I just participated in the Northern Alliance Military Fly In located in Owatonna, MN last week and we were graced with a visit by dmeyers0403 and his Lysander from Arkansas!
Unfortunately D has had some recent eye surgery so he had Howard fly it for him. It flew great!
My Lizzie-2 flew very well but had problems with the engine after it came back from HH service, so I was grounded.

Next stop is Warbirds & Classices over the Midwest in Fond Du Lac Aug. 17-19th, 2017!

Will we see you there???

Scott


Quote:
Originally Posted by ttmv321 View Post
I had my maiden fight with my Lysander yesterday and everything went well. I like the way it flies very well. it takes off in a short distance and I only had to put 4 oz back by the tell Will to get a balance
thank you Scott and Galen B I appreciate your help. Tom
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Old 08-15-2017, 07:24 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly2XS View Post
Congratulations Tom!
That is exciting!
I just participated in the Northern Alliance Military Fly In located in Owatonna, MN last week and we were graced with a visit by dmeyers0403 and his Lysander from Arkansas!
Unfortunately D has had some recent eye surgery so he had Howard fly it for him. It flew great!
My Lizzie-2 flew very well but had problems with the engine after it came back from HH service, so I was grounded.

Next stop is Warbirds & Classices over the Midwest in Fond Du Lac Aug. 17-19th, 2017!

Will we see you there???

Scott
Hey Scott,
i have been off line for a while because my wife of 50 years and I came down with cancer at the same time and started treatments within 3 days of each other. Anyway the prognosis is good for both of us.

so now I am 95% done and I took the fuselage to the to the field to run the nice new Saito FG60-R3 radial. No work ....... broke. Oh foo. Ran on two cylinders. Cylinder 3 dead cold. Yanked the plugs and put them in a line. All three fired at the same time when spinning the prop. Didn't matter what the rpm's were. Sent it to Horizon and they got it into the queue right away but turnaround on engines is six plus days. Just got it back and the problem was incorrect placement of the thrust washer so the magnets were not in the right places. They fixed that and also made some adjustments to the carb. I will not have it ready for Warbirds and Classics over the Midwest. I will be there on Friday with either my 1/3 Moraine Saulnier or my 1/3 Cub or my Ziroli Spirit of St Louis. Not sure yet what I will bring. Anyway, I will be in the Flying Electrons Screaming Chicken Squadron tent. I'll see if I can find you. Not too many Lizzies will be there I suppose.

Best Regards,
Cliff Evans
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Old 08-16-2017, 04:13 AM
  #214
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Hey Scott,
i have been off line for a while because my wife of 50 years and I came down with cancer at the same time and started treatments within 3 days of each other. Anyway the prognosis is good for both of us.

so now I am 95% done and I took the fuselage to the to the field to run the nice new Saito FG60-R3 radial. No work ....... broke. Oh foo. Ran on two cylinders. Cylinder 3 dead cold. Yanked the plugs and put them in a line. All three fired at the same time when spinning the prop. Didn't matter what the rpm's were. Sent it to Horizon and they got it into the queue right away but turnaround on engines is six plus days. Just got it back and the problem was incorrect placement of the thrust washer so the magnets were not in the right places. They fixed that and also made some adjustments to the carb. I will not have it ready for Warbirds and Classics over the Midwest. I will be there on Friday with either my 1/3 Moraine Saulnier or my 1/3 Cub or my Ziroli Spirit of St Louis. Not sure yet what I will bring. Anyway, I will be in the Flying Electrons Screaming Chicken Squadron tent. I'll see if I can find you. Not too many Lizzies will be there I suppose.

Best Regards,
Cliff Evans
Hey Cliff!
Great news on the treatments! We're pulling for you!
My FG60-R3 had just come back from the shop and had 20 minutes running time before it threw #3 cylinder from the crank case at Owatonna. The exhaust manifold kept it from being lost forever. Lizzie-2 has sustained wing mount and torn out gear damage so she's not making it to Fondy. My FG60-R3 is on its way back to HH Product Support to figure out why it broke after they fixed it.

If it were not so cool sounding, I'd chuck the 4 stroke for the reliability of the electric like Paul Flemming! (btw: how's it flying Paul?)

At Fond Du Lac I'll be hanging out on the North side of the field with some Minnesota buddies as I gave up my space in the Minnesota Circus Test for some one who needed it more.
Otherwise you might find me working with Armond on the microphone.

Best,
Scott

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Old 08-17-2017, 11:53 AM
  #215
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I bent my wing tube in Owatonna so I measured it at 19.1 mm OD and found a 19 mm OD replacement from OnLine Metals. I picked up a 3 foot section for about $15.
Scott
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Old 08-18-2017, 02:35 AM
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Scott, Sorry to see the mishap caused in Owatonna by the engine failure. I've been counting on you to be flying your Lysander to help me sell more of these! I still have one more NIB Seagull Lysander. I'll have it on the North end at Fond Du Lac. Who knows maybe you need LIZZIE-3 !! Leo Spychalla
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Old 08-21-2017, 06:22 AM
  #217
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Leo,
It was a pleasure to pit with you at Fond Du Lac!
Thank you for the kind words and being ready to provide support. I'm repairing Lizzie-2 for the next event.
Best,

Scott
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Old 08-21-2017, 06:33 AM
  #218
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Quote:
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Hey Cliff!
Great news on the treatments! We're pulling for you!
My FG60-R3 had just come back from the shop and had 20 minutes running time before it threw #3 cylinder from the crank case at Owatonna. The exhaust manifold kept it from being lost forever. Lizzie-2 has sustained wing mount and torn out gear damage so she's not making it to Fondy. My FG60-R3 is on its way back to HH Product Support to figure out why it broke after they fixed it.

If it were not so cool sounding, I'd chuck the 4 stroke for the reliability of the electric like Paul Flemming! (btw: how's it flying Paul?)

At Fond Du Lac I'll be hanging out on the North side of the field with some Minnesota buddies as I gave up my space in the Minnesota Circus Test for some one who needed it more.
Otherwise you might find me working with Armond on the microphone.

Best,
Scott
Hi Cliff!
I'm sorry I missed you at Fondy.
I was pitting with Matt & Sue T. and Leo Spychalla on the north side. We had some great flying!
Scott
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Old 08-24-2017, 04:05 AM
  #219
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Default wing tube

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I bent my wing tube in Owatonna so I measured it at 19.1 mm OD and found a 19 mm OD replacement from OnLine Metals. I picked up a 3 foot section for about $15.
Scott
Good to know where to get a replacement. The tube that came with my kit is an incredibly tight fit in the fuselage. Very difficult to get through there. I'm thinking that 19 mm as opposed to 19.1 might work better? anyone else have a problem with the tube? I've sanded the tube AND the socket and it's still very very tight.

BTW, all this talk about CG has me confused. (easily done, btw) Rather than 'x' further back, etc. can someone just give me a proper CG measurement in inches?

Thanks.
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Old 09-07-2017, 08:28 PM
  #220
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Scott
I sent you a private message about the Northern Alliance Military Fly In in Owatonna
Lawrence Harville
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Old 09-08-2017, 03:18 AM
  #221
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Sold my 3rd Seagull Lysander to a pilot down in McDonough GA. We tried shipping via Greyhound for the first time. It worked fantastic! Everybody was kind and courteous. It only took 2 days to arrive. The shipping price at $107 was much better than FedEx Ground or UPS at $180. Kit arrived perfect.

So now I am holding up a bit on bringing in any more. I am not sure of what the demand is for the Lysander and I don't want to tie up money in a kit that just sits. I may change my mind come spring and bring 2 more in as a special order. SIG has talked of stocking them but not sure if they are doing it.

I've got 2 of the 40 - 50cc Seagull Stukas coming. One for a customer and one likely for me. I really want to look at that plane and see how it is!

Leo

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Old 09-08-2017, 02:17 PM
  #222
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After seeing pics of this plane I was shocked how much bigger it is than I thought. I used to have some plans for what I thought was a large Lysander, however I think this is bigger than those plans..
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