*Seagull Westland Lysander*
06-23-2017, 10:02 AM
#151
My Feedback: (18)
To cut the wing holes I started with a stepped drill bit to open up holes at the ends big enough to start cutting with scissors. I used the scissors to remove the majority of the material, and switched to #11 Exacto blades to carve away the clear up to the paint lines. Carving was time consuming, but you have much better control if you whittle away it the material a little bit at a time. This process worked well for me.
06-26-2017, 04:42 AM
#154
I bought this bag: Wing Bags Detail
It's for biplanes, but it has enough compartments so that it holds the wings, the struts, the wing tube, the stab tube, the stabs, and several spare props... Needless to say I think it is perfect!
I have attached a couple of pics (they're not great, but they do show how I pack the wings and struts).
It's for biplanes, but it has enough compartments so that it holds the wings, the struts, the wing tube, the stab tube, the stabs, and several spare props... Needless to say I think it is perfect!
I have attached a couple of pics (they're not great, but they do show how I pack the wings and struts).
Have you flown yours yet?
Scott
06-26-2017, 04:45 AM
#155
Scott
06-26-2017, 10:08 AM
#156
My Feedback: (18)
I used light green bubble Tea straws (don't ask why I have those -- I have a daughter...) that I split to cover the wires as they run down one of the formers... I have attached the best picture that I have on hand (lots of scotch tape as I was fitting the canopy)...
06-27-2017, 05:10 AM
#159
We finally made the second flight today with all repairs and modifications made. Zero incidence on stab & wing. Moved CG back (2-1/4" from canopy former) by adding 8 oz at tail wheel. Made cross bracket to secure weight.
Added more elevator control to 1".
Also went to cap screws to replace set screws with flats on tail shaft to prevent tail wheel from rotating on shaft.
Howard did the test flight, thank goodness or it would not have survived. Still earned his reputation as one of the best around.
Changes made did improve flying qualities a lot but it is still a handful to fly, but at least it now flares. Flaps without reducing throttle to a bit above idle sent her vertical in a heartbeat. Thought Howard was trying some of his 3D stuff.
Very pitch sensitive but did not show any tail heavy tendencies other than sensitivity.
She does flare now but did not want to settle in due to strong head wind.
We are going to remove 4 oz. from tail and try again.
Verdict at this point: This plane is not for the faint of heart. We purchased with intent to have a nice looking Warbird with gentle flying characteristics! Wooo-Dogees what a surprise!
Mike:
Fellow club member summed it up best: "Successful" being the key word. Howard can fly anything.
Test Pilot Howard's quote:
I guess we could eventually become Lysander cult heroes if you consider all the fiddling and re-engineering we did to eventually pull this off? At least we proved that ALL incidences and the CG were bogus even though we're still fine-tuning the CG. I'm proud to have my name associated with this funky flight :-)
First Landing attemp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzJc...ature=youtu.be
First & only takeoff and Second Landing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhq5taz5cXM
Added more elevator control to 1".
Also went to cap screws to replace set screws with flats on tail shaft to prevent tail wheel from rotating on shaft.
Howard did the test flight, thank goodness or it would not have survived. Still earned his reputation as one of the best around.
Changes made did improve flying qualities a lot but it is still a handful to fly, but at least it now flares. Flaps without reducing throttle to a bit above idle sent her vertical in a heartbeat. Thought Howard was trying some of his 3D stuff.
Very pitch sensitive but did not show any tail heavy tendencies other than sensitivity.
She does flare now but did not want to settle in due to strong head wind.
We are going to remove 4 oz. from tail and try again.
Verdict at this point: This plane is not for the faint of heart. We purchased with intent to have a nice looking Warbird with gentle flying characteristics! Wooo-Dogees what a surprise!
Mike:
Fellow club member summed it up best: "Successful" being the key word. Howard can fly anything.
Test Pilot Howard's quote:
I guess we could eventually become Lysander cult heroes if you consider all the fiddling and re-engineering we did to eventually pull this off? At least we proved that ALL incidences and the CG were bogus even though we're still fine-tuning the CG. I'm proud to have my name associated with this funky flight :-)
First Landing attemp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzJc...ature=youtu.be
First & only takeoff and Second Landing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhq5taz5cXM
We'll have a couple of Lizzies flying as well!
Scott
06-27-2017, 06:43 AM
#160
My Feedback: (48)
Scott:
Just finished another flight two weekends ago with 4oz. remove from tail, which put CG about where Germans spec' their's. We are at 1.7" from front of wing root at cabin.
All incidence are still at zero. We are going to add about 2 degrees down thrust on engine.
The plane flew beautiful and landing was easy with no flaps because of good modest 5-10 mph headwind. Totally manageable. It is now a keeper. Flare's and landed rather gently. It is definitely a rudder plane, skids thru turns with just aileron.
Since we have successfully debugged our Lysander, we examined the built in engineering defects and it has been determined by our own authorized flying committee that it was the RUSSIANS that obliviously interfered in original design decisions. Howard was committee chair who uncovered the conspiracy.
Just finished another flight two weekends ago with 4oz. remove from tail, which put CG about where Germans spec' their's. We are at 1.7" from front of wing root at cabin.
All incidence are still at zero. We are going to add about 2 degrees down thrust on engine.
The plane flew beautiful and landing was easy with no flaps because of good modest 5-10 mph headwind. Totally manageable. It is now a keeper. Flare's and landed rather gently. It is definitely a rudder plane, skids thru turns with just aileron.
Since we have successfully debugged our Lysander, we examined the built in engineering defects and it has been determined by our own authorized flying committee that it was the RUSSIANS that obliviously interfered in original design decisions. Howard was committee chair who uncovered the conspiracy.
06-27-2017, 08:06 AM
#162
My Feedback: (48)
Scott: We did Modify Tail incidence. We took out the factory incidence of 5 degrees (+) positive on our tail and set it to Zero (0) degree relative to wing incidence. A small amount of positive (+) tail incidence may be good like the Germans did to help prevent ballooning, but ours is (0).
If you modify yours I would set a bit of positive (+) 1-1/2 to 1.75 max incidence at tail like the Germans as ours balloons some with flaps. A bit of positive should stop that. Also be sure and set balance as they did and add the increased elevator travel or it will be very difficult to land.
PS: I love the plane, it is a great ARF and well worth the effort to get it right.
If you modify yours I would set a bit of positive (+) 1-1/2 to 1.75 max incidence at tail like the Germans as ours balloons some with flaps. A bit of positive should stop that. Also be sure and set balance as they did and add the increased elevator travel or it will be very difficult to land.
PS: I love the plane, it is a great ARF and well worth the effort to get it right.
Last edited by dmyers0403; 06-27-2017 at 08:14 AM.
07-05-2017, 03:41 AM
#163
Balancing the Lysander to dmeyers0403 recommendations. 1.7" behind the LE @ the fuselage. Matches the wing locater pilot hole. Hung it from the ceiling joists and added lead to the tail.
Looks like 8 ounces of lead to balance without the cowl or spats.
I'm going to shift my flight batteries to the observers position below his seat.
Looks like 8 ounces of lead to balance without the cowl or spats.
I'm going to shift my flight batteries to the observers position below his seat.
07-05-2017, 10:20 AM
#164
My Feedback: (18)
Balancing the Lysander to dmeyers0403 recommendations. 1.7" behind the LE @ the fuselage. Matches the wing locater pilot hole. Hung it from the ceiling joists and added lead to the tail.
Looks like 8 ounces of lead to balance without the cowl or spats.
I'm going to shift my flight batteries to the observers position below his seat.
Attachment 2223067
Attachment 2223068
Looks like 8 ounces of lead to balance without the cowl or spats.
I'm going to shift my flight batteries to the observers position below his seat.
Attachment 2223067
Attachment 2223068
Here is a video of the first flight of my Lysander:
Mine flew with the cowl, spats, +3 degrees stab incidence, and no lead... The engine is too rich on the high end, but all in all it flew very well.
I have some post flight pics that I will upload soon.
07-05-2017, 11:25 AM
#165
I have put a lot of work into my Lysander, especially the CG issue. I even bought a Xicoy CG machine so that I can be as accurate as possible. I know that my CG is 141mm behind the main gear. And I know from reading an article in a UK model magazine that they settled on 149mm behind the main gear, 15mm behind the root leading edge. Another 40mm further back seems a little risky to me -- assuming the measurements posted are accurate. Using the Xicopy I know to the mm where is the CG. I also think the Lysander has a pretty wide CG range, but I am too conservative to push it that far back on the first flight.
Here is a video of the first flight of my Lysander: https://youtu.be/6eXrNjk9SEE
Mine flew with the cowl, spats, +3 degrees stab incidence, and no lead... The engine is too rich on the high end, but all in all it flew very well.
I have some post flight pics that I will upload soon.
Here is a video of the first flight of my Lysander: https://youtu.be/6eXrNjk9SEE
Mine flew with the cowl, spats, +3 degrees stab incidence, and no lead... The engine is too rich on the high end, but all in all it flew very well.
I have some post flight pics that I will upload soon.
Just to confirm your information:
- You did NOT change the stab incidence from the ARF as-shipped?
- Your measurement of 141 mm behind the main gear is from what reference point on the main gear? The axles?
Scott
07-05-2017, 11:48 AM
#166
My Feedback: (18)
The Xicopy CG machine measurements are from the center of the tires, the axles.
I think you can start flying with the CG anywhere from 140mm to 150mm behind the axles. Once everything is trimmed and you are comfortable you can adjust the CG to fit your flying style and preference. I also looked at the Phoenix Lysander manual to see where they put the CG, and it is in that range of 15mm behind the leading edge root... These measurements are likely conservative, but I think they are very good starting points.
07-05-2017, 01:39 PM
#168
My Feedback: (18)
The baffle is mounted to the cowl. I know I covered this either in this thread or the on the other site...
As a frame of reference Paul's CG was 10mm forward of mine -- he posted the pics with the up elevator in them...
I am sure my CG is still a bit forward. This good, because I want to shorten the nose on mine, and that will mean less lead to get the CG right after moving the engine back...
07-06-2017, 04:30 AM
#170
I have put a lot of work into my Lysander, especially the CG issue. I even bought a Xicoy CG machine so that I can be as accurate as possible. I know that my CG is 141mm behind the main gear. And I know from reading an article in a UK model magazine that they settled on 149mm behind the main gear, 15mm behind the root leading edge. Another 40mm further back seems a little risky to me -- assuming the measurements posted are accurate. Using the Xicopy I know to the mm where is the CG. I also think the Lysander has a pretty wide CG range, but I am too conservative to push it that far back on the first flight.
I went back to the bench and leveled the aircraft, sighted where the axles are in relation to the cockpit and found your position to be 15 mm behind the first canopy former (behind the cockpit module). I took off the lead from the tail and slid an aluminum channel under that point as a pivot. The aircraft balanced there. I thing as long as we're within 15 mm behind the first former and the wing dowel locator hole we should be fine. Hopefully I can maiden mine Friday or Saturday.
Scott
07-06-2017, 10:22 AM
#171
My Feedback: (18)
Galen,
I went back to the bench and leveled the aircraft, sighted where the axles are in relation to the cockpit and found your position to be 15 mm behind the first canopy former (behind the cockpit module). I took off the lead from the tail and slid an aluminum channel under that point as a pivot. The aircraft balanced there. I thing as long as we're within 15 mm behind the first former and the wing dowel locator hole we should be fine. Hopefully I can maiden mine Friday or Saturday.
Scott
I went back to the bench and leveled the aircraft, sighted where the axles are in relation to the cockpit and found your position to be 15 mm behind the first canopy former (behind the cockpit module). I took off the lead from the tail and slid an aluminum channel under that point as a pivot. The aircraft balanced there. I thing as long as we're within 15 mm behind the first former and the wing dowel locator hole we should be fine. Hopefully I can maiden mine Friday or Saturday.
Scott
As I read the previous something seems odd to me -- please bear with me as I explain...
My Lysander has the Saito 60 R3 on 2.75" stand offs, has three Futaba S9551 low profile MG servos in the tail (45 grams each), and two A123 pack mounted just behind the firewall in the all to cramped area under the cockpit hatch. With this setup, including cowl, spats, wing and struts my CG is at 141mm behind the axles -- dry.
I don't know much about your Lysander setup, other than you mounted the Saito 60 R3 without stand offs and shortened your cowl by about 2", and are measuring CG sans cowl and spats. I don't know what you did for the tail servos, or anything else about your setup. Given where you have your engine I don't understand how your CG is not much further back. Hopefully you won't mind describing your setup and how you are setting up the plane for CG measurements. I am curious as to why these two planes seem so different and I would like to understand it -- if you don't mind taking the time to describe your setup. I am a bit OCD at times and inconsistencies make me crazy!
FYI -- I did program higher than recommended elevator throws on my Lysander. I started at the recommended rate and added 20% or so. I also had two more conditions with ever increasing throws available -- just in case... My test pilot cautions that this plane has a lot of adverse yaw and must be flow with rudder in the turns. This not surprising given the vintage of the design and the wing layout. I will likely program differential aileron, more up, than down, as I start to fly it myself.
Best of luck with your maiden flight!
07-06-2017, 11:17 AM
#172
My Lysander has the Saito 60 R3 on 2.75" stand offs, has three Futaba S9551 low profile MG servos in the tail (45 grams each), and two A123 pack mounted just behind the firewall in the all to cramped area under the cockpit hatch. With this setup, including cowl, spats, wing and struts my CG is at 141mm behind the axles -- dry.
I don't know much about your Lysander setup, other than you mounted the Saito 60 R3 without stand offs and shortened your cowl by about 2", and are measuring CG sans cowl and spats. I don't know what you did for the tail servos, or anything else about your setup. Given where you have your engine I don't understand how your CG is not much further back. Hopefully you won't mind describing your setup and how you are setting up the plane for CG measurements. I am curious as to why these two planes seem so different and I would like to understand it -- if you don't mind taking the time to describe your setup. I am a bit OCD at times and inconsistencies make me crazy!
I don't know much about your Lysander setup, other than you mounted the Saito 60 R3 without stand offs and shortened your cowl by about 2", and are measuring CG sans cowl and spats. I don't know what you did for the tail servos, or anything else about your setup. Given where you have your engine I don't understand how your CG is not much further back. Hopefully you won't mind describing your setup and how you are setting up the plane for CG measurements. I am curious as to why these two planes seem so different and I would like to understand it -- if you don't mind taking the time to describe your setup. I am a bit OCD at times and inconsistencies make me crazy!
I'll try to upload my images to help:
- I have (2) Spektrum DS821 digital servos in the stab for the elevators.
- I replaced the tail wheel assembly with a much more sturdy (and scale like) wheel assembly with a 2" wheel. (weight unknown)
- I replaced the stock gear with the much heavier TnT 6061-T6 gear. (as you did)
- I replaced the 5" plastic wheels from the kit with Robart 6" six spoke aluminum wheels. (12 oz each) I do have scale 7" Sullivan wheels (the full size had 36" wheels and at 1/5th scale they should be 7 1/4" diameter)
- My rudder servo DS821 is in the forward position with a single wire pushrod connecting to the modified nose gear steering arm on the tail wheel.
- I replace the kit tank with a 16 ounce Rotoflow tank.
- I moved the flight batteries below the CG (2) 2000 mAH 5 cell NiMh receiver packs and (1) 4000 mAH 5 cell NiMh ignition pack (heavy) straddling the rudder servo.
- I placed my switches and fuel dot beneath the removable cockpit.
- I have a Best Pilot's Sailor Mann pilot figure and a Ian Flemming observer.
- My FG60-R3 has the original exhaust tubes and is mounted 1/4 inch from the firewall.
- I had removed 2 1/2 inches of cowl to make it more scale like.
- My ignition module is mounted above the engine mounting box.
I'll add the images shortly!
Scott
07-07-2017, 08:55 AM
#174
My Feedback: (18)
Hi Scott,
Thanks for the info and pics about your setup. I really liked seeing the TnT gear, which I have yet to purchase. I am not a fan of the slot in the stock gear in which the axles mount...
All of your posted pics showing balance are sans wings. Is that how you are setting the CG?
Given the shortness of your nose, heavy full size servos in the tail, and batteries near, or slightly aft of CG I cannot understand how you are not very tail heavy. My engine is 2.75" farther forward of yours, and my batteries are right behind the firewall. I also have no pilot or cockpit details-- yet...
Setting the CG on mine drove me crazy for months and I am therefore paranoid about it for other Lysanders. The double taper wing is quite unique and calculating CG, and center of lift, are different. This why I got the Xicoy CG machine, working with the wing for CG was too hard. Besides, if the guys who fly very expensive jets rely on the Xicoy, that was a strong endorsement.
Thanks for the info and pics about your setup. I really liked seeing the TnT gear, which I have yet to purchase. I am not a fan of the slot in the stock gear in which the axles mount...
All of your posted pics showing balance are sans wings. Is that how you are setting the CG?
Given the shortness of your nose, heavy full size servos in the tail, and batteries near, or slightly aft of CG I cannot understand how you are not very tail heavy. My engine is 2.75" farther forward of yours, and my batteries are right behind the firewall. I also have no pilot or cockpit details-- yet...
Setting the CG on mine drove me crazy for months and I am therefore paranoid about it for other Lysanders. The double taper wing is quite unique and calculating CG, and center of lift, are different. This why I got the Xicoy CG machine, working with the wing for CG was too hard. Besides, if the guys who fly very expensive jets rely on the Xicoy, that was a strong endorsement.
Last edited by GalenB; 07-07-2017 at 08:58 AM.
07-09-2017, 08:11 AM
#175
Thanks for the info and pics about your setup. I really liked seeing the TnT gear, which I have yet to purchase. I am not a fan of the slot in the stock gear in which the axles mount...
All of your posted pics showing balance are sans wings. Is that how you are setting the CG?
Given the shortness of your nose, heavy full size servos in the tail, and batteries near, or slightly aft of CG I cannot understand how you are not very tail heavy. My engine is 2.75" farther forward of yours, and my batteries are right behind the firewall. I also have no pilot or cockpit details-- yet...
Setting the CG on mine drove me crazy for months and I am therefore paranoid about it for other Lysanders.
I used your input and the feedback of the Oklahoma team and set my CG near the 15 mm point behind the leading edge of the wing at the root. Yes, I did this without the wing.
I had everything ready so I just decided to fly it!
it flew GREAT!
Here's a link to a first flyby!
She acted if she was a little nose heavy so I have a little up trim. I had programmed 30% rudder with the aileron so coordinated turns were easy! Stalls were straight forward and sooooo slow! She would mush for a second then drop of on the left wing. Very predictable and not much different than my SuperCub.
i can see a lot of time doing low & slow passes just to hear the engine as well as touch and goes!
Ive got her loaded up for Air Supremacy over Goshen this week, then I'll start detailing her!
My Lizzie is a KEEPER!
Last edited by Fly2XS; 07-09-2017 at 07:56 PM.