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Another Ziroli 101" B-25 thread

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Old 11-04-2016, 07:37 AM
  #1  
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Default Another Ziroli 101" B-25 thread

Hopefully this one will see it through to its maiden. I picked up a National Balsa box of wood with some laser cut parts, not going to call it a kit since it has no building manual, no plans, no hardware, no cowls, canopies, etc, just a box of wood. I had picked up a Ziroli P-61 a few years back from them, but have not felt that I am at that level yet due to the complex spoiler setup required for a scale plane. I picked up the plans for both a week after getting the P-61 kit, so had those a while now.

My goal is to power it with either Saito FG-30 or FG-40, unless I get lucky and find a pair of FG-36 at a decent price. I will be making my own retracts for this using my Sherline mill and lathe, will have full flaps, 4 servos for those, and a 3 piece removable wing, may or may not have a functioning bomb bay, won't know until I get to that point, and my ambition level+check book level.

The plane I am modeling will be Tootsie, http://b-25history.org/aircraft/4430606.htm



So the first thing I did was to pull out and examine all 4 plans sheets, then layout all the cut parts. Ran into an issue right out of the box, literally, 4 of the 6 sheets of cut plywood parts were warped beyond use. I contacted NB and they were kind enough to cut me new parts to replace the bad ones, and I asked if they could cut the W5 and W7 pieces out of 6 ply, and I would pay the difference. They did, without extra cost. Two Thumbs up to National Balsa!! Even better, I had the parts 3 days later, perfectly cut, and nice and flat.

So after inventorying all the parts, I started mocking up the center section. The plans do come with a guide book. Can't really call it a build manual as it has no detail to it whatsoever, but its a good place to start with. Following that guide book I started with assembling the nacelles and spar web, dry fitting everything, then glued up the nacelle bottom to W5 & 7, then inserted N2 and glued it in. To get W6 in you have to place it in the spar from the top and then N2 slides down over the top of W6, well, dummy me forgot to add W6a which sits next to W6 and is glued to it, wound up breaking N2 and had to make a replacement. I also discovered that the bottom spar slots for the 1/4" x 1/2" main bottom spar in W5 & 7 were too small and needed to be enlarged, which was difficult once assembled(lessons learned).

I have the top main spar epoxied in, the ribs squared up with triangle stock on the face of the spar web, and the top and front stringers glued in. I weighted everything down once I got it square and straight until the epoxy sets, then can flip it over and epoxy in the bottom main spar.



Next step once the bottom spar is glued in is to spin it around and work on the rear, and this has me questioning the flaps. Do I cut the flaps out now, then tack them in place to sheet, should I cut them out, apply the wood caps on the TE, and tack them to that, then sheet? Seems like once sheeted, removing them will be difficult due to the angled cuts, they are cut on a ~45* from the top in, and then 90* up from the bottom to meet the 45. (approximate angles).

Once I have the spars and stringers glued in and the wing trued up, I will go back and epoxy the ribs to the spar web, then fill in between the spars with more webbing. Then follow that up with sheeting the bottom and move on to the outer wing panels. I ordered tubing for the wings yesterday, found a place that sells tubing by the foot at very reasonable prices, much less expensive than buying from an RC place for the same stuff. The place is onlinemetals.com. The only thing you cant get are the sockets, but I plan to make my own with epoxy and glass. Doesn't need to be structural, just needs to be smooth so nothing gets damaged when inserting and removing the wing tube into the CS.

IF and when the Rascal 168 arrives, then this one will be put on the back burner until the Rascal is finished, and then I will resume on it. Until then, a little progress each night is my goal. I will keep at the build until I get to the point where the gear is needed for fitting into the nacelles and start making the gear. My idea is to use 1, maybe 2 A7040 retract servos per gear, and build them based off the retracts on my H9 P-47. These servos with those retracts work very well, scale like speeds, no binding, very nice setup, and you can't beat the price of them. I will use aluminum servo arms as the plastic ones tend to flex under the strain. It looks like there should be plenty of room to mount servos and gear in there, and having a dedicated battery for them will help with balancing as it can be installed in the nose. The only one that will give me a lot of thinking will be the nose gear, but the mains will be pretty straight forward, a couple angles, some cross braces, and a chunk of aluminum to mill. I may or may not make the struts, depends on what I can find.
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Last edited by acdii; 11-04-2016 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 11-06-2016, 08:33 AM
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Spent another night on it, 5 hours Friday night, man time flies. Doesn't look much different than the above photos, so didn't take new ones, but what I got done was the bottom spar, had to open the slots in W5 & W7 so it could slide through, then fitted the spar and made adjustments to the rest of the ribs and epoxied it in place. The next thing done was the rest of the top stringers, cut out the flaps and built out the rear of the nacelles W5 & W7 where you have to crack them right behind the top rear spar that is a triangle shape as it is the trailing edge that covers the gap between the wing and flaps, and forms the rear shape of the nacelle. Once I got all the stingers/spars glued in I started capping the trailing edge where the flaps go, and got as far as the right inner one done. I can't believe it took me 5 hours to get that done.

One thing bothering me is the epoxy. I used some 20 minute stuff I got from Hobby Lobby and it took all night to set up, where the BSI 30 minute will be set at an hour, and fully hardened in 2 or 3. I had removed the clamps and found that after few minutes the spar moved, so I had to reset it and clamp it again. The next morning though they were rock solid. I used SIG 1 1/2 hour epoxy on the spar joiner and it took 2 days to fully cure.

Next up after finishing the caps are the flaps. I made a W2a, which is no where on the plans, nor shown on the overhead, but if you look close to the fuse plan, you can see that the end of the flap that is next to the fuse has it. W2 is not cut for the flap, or there would be a big hole when the flaps are down. Looks like there should be a W5c for the outer end of the inner flap, but again, don't see anything like it, so will scratch one out. For added end strength I plan to insert 1/64th plywood into a slot cut at the trailing edge of the flap ribs, this will secure the tails of the ribs as will as make them stiffer and less likely to get damaged from hanger rash.

Once the flaps are done, then the next step is sheeting, and this is where I have not decided, top first, or bottom. I am leaning towards top first, but there are things to do internally such as the servo mounts for the flaps and the hold down blocks for wing removal, as well as the lighting, wire tubes, etc. I think that since the top has the least amount of work to be done once sheeting, such as the top of the nacelle detail that once it is sheeted, I flip it over onto a foam cradle to prevent damage to the sheeting, and work on the rest that way.
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Old 11-10-2016, 07:44 PM
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As I am working on this I found that the inner flaps are incorrect for the J model, they are the flaps shown on the three view, but the J and newer models have the flaps cut following the nacelles all the way back. I have one flap built, and will have the other one done tomorrow and will post. The bottom sheeting between nacelles is done as well.
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Old 11-12-2016, 08:07 AM
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Right inner flap complete, another 3 hours of work into it. Left flap is half done, but should go faster than the right now that I have the first one completed. Other than some sanding for a better fit, its done.


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Old 11-13-2016, 07:43 AM
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Second flap took 20 minutes. Just have one piece of sheeting to apply, had to let the windex dry on the first piece. Picked up large Robarts pin hinges, thought I had some, but they are the smaller ones. Next up are the servo mounts, wing mount blocks and wing tube attachments. Looks like there is a plywood piece that is glued to the outer wing panel and slides into the center section, then a pair of bolts secure it through the tube to plywood mounts with T-nuts. Of course, little to no detail of this critical component on any of the plans, just snippets.
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Old 11-14-2016, 06:49 AM
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I will be following your build......u r moving along. I have just completed mine and have one flight on her.Still have some tweaking to do.
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Old 11-14-2016, 07:49 AM
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What did you power it with? Still undecided on what size to use.

I did get a little more done yesterday, didn't spend much time over the weekend, had other projects that needed my attention.

I finished both inner flaps, picked up a 1/48th scale Revell kit of the J model and determined that I do have the correct type of flaps, and from what little I can see of the picture of the actual plane they look the same as the model.

I started on the servo mounts for the flaps, going to have a hatch on each side in the belly for them. I also picked up large Robarts hinges and now they look more appropriate for the size.



One trick I like to use for fitting, but gets messy quickly is to brush graphite on one part and put it together to find out where it is binding, and then sand that area for a better fit, downside, everything turns gray. Thats why the flap looks like it does.
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Old 11-17-2016, 05:49 AM
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Dle35ra
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Old 11-17-2016, 05:56 AM
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Right wing panel assembled and fitted. As others have found, the holes in the robs for the wing tube are off by 3/4" so had to elongate them, and make rings to secure the tube to the ribs. I have the tube epoxied in place, and titebond curing the lower spares, then I can flip it over and finish gluing the rest, everything is tacked in with thin CA.

The last pic shows the tab that will be used to secure the outer panel to the center section. still need to cut it to length and then tack it in place so I can get the filler block installed in the center section under the tube so it has a solid connection when bolted together. The idea I have is a balsa block with a 1/32" plywood face that is in the center section that the tube rides on, the tab of the outer panel slides across the plywood, and then 2 bolts secure it to the top plate above the tube. This should prevent any vibration issues, and flex issues.



This is a big sucker when assembled, the plans are a bit deceiving with that left panel missing. My work bench is 49" wide, so you can get a good reference from my pic of the 2/3rds assembled wing. Good thing I decided to make the wing removable, or I wouldn't get it out of my basement.
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Old 11-17-2016, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by SWORDSN View Post
Dle35ra

I was looking at the plans and the prototype had G23's on it, so thinking a pair of FG-30's should fly this OK. It's a 180 sized 4 stroke. The plans show it using 90-1.20 4 stroke, which I think is too small. If I can find a pair of FG-36, those would be perfect for it, the next ones up are FG-40 which is 220 sized. I think they would be overkill.
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Old 11-17-2016, 06:07 AM
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I think the FG36 would be ok but a little overkill would be better
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Old 11-17-2016, 06:21 AM
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Or find a pair of FA-220 and convert them to CDI. I looked at the conversion for the 180b, and it costs more than the FG-30 by $25, and that is just to go CDI glow, CDI gas is another $50 each. Whatever I do, it has to be Saito, no other engine will sound as good pulling this plane around other than a radial.
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Old 11-17-2016, 07:16 PM
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I'm in the process of completing a Ziroli 101" B-25 also. It's framed up, sheeted and glassing is in progress. I'm wondering about covering with Flite-Metal, with rivet details. Any suggestions as to where I can find some good info on the whole process. john R.
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Old 11-18-2016, 06:18 AM
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I have seen some. Google Flite metal applications, you should see a few out there. Since mine will be painted to match Tootsie, not going the metal route, just glass and paint.

Provided the left panel is the same length as the right one, the wing span will be 101 1/2". Got the assembly done on the right panel, just need to bottom sheet it so I can place the servo mounts, and remove the aileron and flap, then run the LED landing light and then top sheet and leading edges, then I can move on to the left panel.

Worked on the joiner last night. just used 1/4" plywood to make the part that slides into the CS, then bridged it to the spar with another 1/4" piece and epoxied it together. Second pic shows the clamp I made with ply and balsa that is in the CS. Two 8/32 x 2 1/4" bolts will run through the tube from the bottom and clamp down on the tube as well as securing it from moving. I spent more time last night digging through my hardware looking for the stupid bolts than anything else. Thought I had some in that size, but guess not. I got the T-nuts, but not the bolts, so will have to get some ordered, but will hold off until I have an idea of everything I need first.

The joint between the wing panel and CS needed to be built up a little bit at the front and rear, when I put the top block in for the clamp it was a little too tight and pushed the middle out a bit. I took 1/32" sheeting and glued it in place then block sanded until it was flat again. Now the panel fits tight, no gaps and nice and straight.

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Old 11-18-2016, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by acdii View Post
Or find a pair of FA-220 and convert them to CDI. I looked at the conversion for the 180b, and it costs more than the FG-30 by $25, and that is just to go CDI glow, CDI gas is another $50 each. Whatever I do, it has to be Saito, no other engine will sound as good pulling this plane around other than a radial.
Can't disagree about the sound
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Old 11-18-2016, 11:21 AM
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Well I can find plenty of used or NIB FA-180 for under $350 which would be less expensive starting out with CDI added on. Just need to find out if this would be enough power for the plane.

What I am trying to figure out, there is this large block of maple in the wood box, its about 3/4" x 2" by about 12" long, not sure what that will be used for, but I do know I want to make a few internal changes to the fuse since it will be a bolt in wing. Going to get some 6 ply 3/32" and make a saddle to run from before and to after the bomb bay to stiffen the fuse in that area, wouldn't do much good to have the fuse crack behind the wing from a hard landing and not know it until the next time it flies and the tail falls off.

The bomb bay will be a challenge to make functional since the wing bolts come up from underneath. I want the bay doors to work, so have to figure out best way to be able to open them when unplugged. I will most likely have the bay permanently attached to the wing as well, and may do some minor surgery to the bottom of the wing inside the bay to make it flat for a more realistic look. I have the Revell kit for inspiration too. I may also make it so that instead of the sheeting covering the bottom, it will be a removable panel instead and hide the bay door servos in there. I have some tiny servos I pulled from an Eflite foamy that may work perfectly for the doors, if not the bay doors, the gear doors.

I may leave the top skin off the CS for now until I am 100% sure what I will do, but the wing panels will have LED landing lights, have the package sitting in there as a reminder, and will get the outer panels skinned and maybe even glassed, then set aside and move on to the Fuse. What I dont want is to have to perform surgery to the top skin when working on the bay. For fitting the wing to the fuse I will tack in some top sheeting from W2 to W2 so that the wing is set correctly, sheet the fuse to the point where it wont warp or have problems from sitting, and then finished the CS with bomb bay and nacelles.

I have a LOT of work ahead of me, and a lot of customization's that I have to plan ahead for so I dont have to redo what I already did. Would like to use Fowler hinges for the flaps, but looks like those are only available for 1/5th and larger scales. I will keep what I did already, but if I come across some, I would most likely use them instead.
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Old 11-19-2016, 07:29 PM
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Got more done with the right wing panel. Bottom sheeted, servo bays in place, trailing edges capped, and landing light in place. Tommorrow, or the next time down, top sheet goes on and leading edge put on. Then on to the left panel.


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Old 11-20-2016, 06:49 PM
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This is a tall sucker, right now its an inch over my head. Right wing just needs the leading edge done, then onto the left wing panel. Then start the Fuse.

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Old 11-24-2016, 08:45 AM
  #19  
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Coming along slowly. Right wing completed, left wing bones built up ready for bottom sheeting, and right aileron and flap cut out and ready for fitting and sheeting. Have to modify the clevis I made for the outer flaps since they are too big. I remembered the landing lights but forgot the wingtip lights before the top sheet was done, so guess those will be left off this build, and I can use them on the P-61.



I dont know why they load sideways, they show up correct when I open them on my computer and in the thumbs. For reference, the bench the wing is sitting on is 49" wide. Glad I decided on 3 piece removable or I wouldnt be able to get it out of the basement.
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Old 11-27-2016, 08:37 AM
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Left wing landing light installed and bottom sheet applied. Didn't get much further than that since I used tightbond to glue the sheet on and had to let it dry. Worked on repairing my T-Clips while waiting. Planning to get the rest of the panel done today and move on to the fuse.
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Old 12-04-2016, 05:29 PM
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Got more bench time in today. Left wing is done. This is big compared to my past planes. Not my largest plane, I have a CARF with 104" span, but that was already built when I got it. My 80" bench is just long enough for the fuse.

So the full wing is assembled minus flaps and ailerons, and the center section is built, but not top sheeted, nor are the nacelles touched, those will wait until I have the wing bolted to the fuse, mainly so I can put the flats of the nacelles to work supporting the plane.

I built myself some stands for supporting the crutch and started to dry fit the pieces, and looks like only one SS-1 is cut, so I made a second one. Since the wing will be bolted in and removable, I will be doing it from the bomb bay, the top of the fuse will need to remain solid one piece. I want to build in some rigidity by adding some 6 ply between formers 5 and 10, so need to get a 12"x36" 1/8" plywood sheet to cut the parts out with. These will replace W4 on the upper inside of the fuse, and I have to think about how I will insert them into the formers and at what point. Since the upper hold down blocks are not cut, that gives me the opportunity to fine tune the inner ply.



Going to need to get a couple more tiles, I dont have enough to go the length of the fuse, so in the mean time I will set up the cradle so that I can align the crutch and formers so that I can make the other parts fit.
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Old 12-06-2016, 04:47 PM
  #22  
acdii
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Crutch partially done, and no F1 and F2 are not glued on(though I almost did, then realized the rest would be a PITA to get on). I didn't have a pin board long enough so did half of it, then will move the board to the other end and slide some supports under the completed side so I can finish it.

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Old 12-07-2016, 07:27 PM
  #23  
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OK I screwed up. The plans show W1, and W4, see note, but could not find a note anywhere on the plans. When I built the cradle I built it upside down using W1. Well, apparently for the bolt in wing W4 is in place of W1. I had to cut out the W1 and glue W4 in. I got it all corrected but set me back a night. So now I have the correct W4 in place and have the Formers dry fitted and found everything fitting so my next step is to start gluing it together after I make the F6B and F9A parts for the removeable wing bay.

I got a set of Robarts on the way, was offered a sweet deal on a set and took the offer. Since they are air operated I will need to find a place to install the tanks, and with the wing only half sheeted, looks like I ca fit a pair of tanks inside the bays of the center section. They will go in the middle and be installed in a way that I can access them easily for maintenance.
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Old 12-09-2016, 04:24 PM
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I know I said I was going to make the landing gear, but came across a very good deal on a set of used Robarts that I couldn't pass up. Just need to replace the axle shaft on the nose gear.

Worked on the fuse yesterday, top portion is strung and started the sheeting. Arrival of the gear couldn't have been better, they arrived today, so I can finish the nose section and fit the gear before completing the planking.



All I need now is a sweet deal on a pair of engines.

One thing missing from the B-25 plans is a material list. I have two hunks of hardwood, 3/4 x 1 and 3/4 x 2 and I dont know which one to use for the wing blocks. Have to study the plans some more to see where else hardwood is used.
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Old 12-09-2016, 05:54 PM
  #25  
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Always love following along on Ziroli builds and especially the B-25. I have a 101" Ziroli B-25 and have gone threw a few different engine changes in search of the perfect combo.

My current engines will be DLE 35RA. I am in the process of mounting and setting them up. Hopping for a maiden in the spring.

I have had the RCV120, NGH17cc, and the Evo 33cc engines. All three I found them to be lacking in power. All three will fly it, but not comfortably. At least not the way I like it. I prefer to have more power and pull back the stick rather then wish for more as it goes in...LOL. I also prefer not to have to fly at high power settings all the time, I much prefer throttling back and flying with more scale RPM/power settings.

It's been a while since it's been on the scales, but if I remember correctly it came in around 34lbs.

Good luck with the build!
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