RC Warbirds and Warplanes Discuss rc warbirds and warplanes in this forum.

CARF P-51 & gyros for tail draggers

Reply
Old 11-26-2016, 06:57 AM
  #1
luckymacy
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: walllingford, PA
Posts: 462
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default CARF P-51 & gyros for tail draggers

Happy Thanksgiving,
It just occurred to me to take advantage of the sales this weekend and order a gyro. I have no direct experience using one. If I want the most effective gyro assist on takeoffs and landing roll outs, it seems too me that I need not just the simpler Cortex gyro but the Cortex Pro with the extra channels to also connect the tail wheel servo to the gryo and not just rely on the rudder for ground control. On the other hand, it doesn't take too much speed to get the tail off the ground to render the tail wheel mute, but I'm just guessing since I haven't flown the mustang yet and therefore looking for advise from anyone with experience controlling a 45 to 50 pound tail dragger warbird using a gryo. I have talked to a couple of pilots who fly the mustang a lot in the past and each has told me they were the worst to control warbird in a crosswind they owned. Just not enough rudder authority if you build per plans.

I'm using two futaba R7008SB servos but not using SBus.


Chief's got the original gyro on sale for $210 plus another 15 to 20 percent off. I see the higher end one comes with a USB port but I haven't seen anything that takes advantage of it so far in my 'research'. Besides just future software updates, it doesn't seem needed at all to set up and run.

http://www.chiefaircraft.com/catalog...&q=3-axis+gyro


thx,
lucky

Last edited by luckymacy; 11-26-2016 at 07:00 AM.
luckymacy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2016, 05:18 PM
  #2
Luft-Gangster
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Pinckney, MI
Posts: 412
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Have you ever tried mixing rudder (rudder beimg the slave to the aileron) with aileron for takeoff and landings? Its a lot cheaper than $200.00 and a common feature on most modern radios.
Luft-Gangster is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2016, 08:16 PM
  #3
BobH
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Springfield, VA,
Posts: 7,704
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Wondering why you would couple aileron with rudder for take offs and landings when the ailerons stall first..?
Ailerons are for roll and rudder is for yaw.. two different functions.
BobH is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2016, 09:13 PM
  #4
c550
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Tomball, TX
Posts: 554
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I have just started using on of these futaba units; http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXGCDV&P=7 very easy to set up if you use futaba
c550 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 05:06 AM
  #5
Luft-Gangster
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Pinckney, MI
Posts: 412
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I agree with you BobH. My thought is to help those who use the left stick mainly for throttle and forget to use rudder for what ever reason. many don't get well trained in the use of rudder and habbits are hard to break.
Luft-Gangster is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 06:09 AM
  #6
Greg Wright
 
Greg Wright's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,220
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luft-Gangster View Post
I agree with you BobH. My thought is to help those who use the left stick mainly for throttle and forget to use rudder for what ever reason. many don't get well trained in the use of rudder and habbits are hard to break.
Habits might be hard to break but by doing a mix like this the airplane will be easier to break. What this mix will induce more is a snap on takeoff or a tip stall either-or it won't be pretty!!


For the OP a Gyro won't cure all of the issues that you are hoping it will. It will just make them more manageable. You still need to use that left stick to keep the plane going straight.

Last edited by Greg Wright; 11-28-2016 at 04:13 AM.
Greg Wright is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 08:25 AM
  #7
acdii
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Capron, IL
Posts: 6,711
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Wright View Post
Habits might be hard to break but by doing a mix like this the airplane will be easier to break. What this mix will induce more is a snap on takeoff or a tip stall either-or it won't be pretty!!


For the OP a Gyro won't cure all of the issues that you are hoping it will. It will just make them a bit more manageable. You still need to use that left stick to keep the plane going strai



100% spot on. Only way to really get a plane to take off straight is to learn rudder. I tried putting a 3 axis n my T-Clips and only made it worse. I finally figured out that I needed to reduce the rudder throw down to a very small movement and add in lots of expo to cure its wandering ways. I couldn't tell you how many times I ground looped it on take off. By adding the gyro it made it difficult to keep it lined up as it would fight my inputs, and I basically removed it after one flight.

On my 60 sized P-51 I have never had a rudder issue on take off, it flies nice and straight down the runway with very little rudder input. I usually hold a touch of left on the stick until the tail comes up and then relax as it picks up speed. I did find out early on that the rudder is ineffective in a strong cross wind the hard way, and found that dropping the windward wing helps. Warbirds sure dont fly like a trainer(Except my P-47), and you have to think through everything before you do it. When I first flew my P-51 it had a nasty habit of snap rolling, which led to a perfect loop into the ground on a windy day, where I discovered its lack of rudder. I went to go around and to miss a tree it was heading for, it had been pushed behind the flight line from the wind, instead of banking away, I pulled up, and the combination of full throttle and full up caused it to snap over. I have since resolved that after repairing it by reducing the elevator throw. It doesn't need much at all. Now it flies beautifully.

What I would suggest, and not being a smart@$$, get something like an LT-40 and practice flying rudder only. Disconnect the ailerons, and lock them, and fly it 3 channel. You will be surprised how quickly you can pick up rudder control that way. You can easily take off and land and fly the pattern with just rudder and elevator. Once you do that, then you will find after dialing in some expo, that the P-51 rudder is a piece of cake to use. Afterwards, you might find that LT-40 to be a fun plane for putting about the sky. I love my LT-40 and have to get the wing repaired, I wore out the ailerons, literally, the shafts from the servo are sloppy inside of them from all the hard flying I did.
acdii is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 07:05 PM
  #8
airzona
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: riverview, MI
Posts: 59
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Gyros are for helicopters and people who can't fly. Don't mix rudder and aileron, just learn how to use the rudder separately.
airzona is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 04:20 AM
  #9
Greg Wright
 
Greg Wright's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,220
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by airzona View Post
Gyros are for helicopters and people who can't fly.
You sir are totally wrong about the use of Gyro's.

When they are properly set-up in a plane they are just making the planes more enjoyable to fly.

A Gyro " Doesn't fly the plane for you in anyway" ...

Even the best RC pilots in the world use them..
Greg Wright is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 07:19 AM
  #10
BarracudaHockey
Community Moderators
 
BarracudaHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 21,888
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by airzona View Post
Gyros are for helicopters and people who can't fly. Don't mix rudder and aileron, just learn how to use the rudder separately.
Thats both inaccurate and unhelpful. If you dont wish to use gyros then don't but they have their place.
BarracudaHockey is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 07:20 AM
  #11
BarracudaHockey
Community Moderators
 
BarracudaHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 21,888
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Not sure why you feel you need the pro, the original will do what you're asking.

Just plug the rudder and tail wheel in and go through the learning sequence.
BarracudaHockey is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2016, 09:38 AM
  #12
Chris Nicastro
 
Chris Nicastro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Coeur d'Alene, ID
Posts: 2,486
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

If I can fly a CARF Gee Bee with a Moki 250 without a gyro then you can fly a big P-51 without a gyro.
Fly something smaller that's a tail dragger and force yourself to practice. I fly a whole tank worth of touch and goes sometimes just to practice. Fly in tough conditions not just fair weather too.
You must learn to be ahead of the plane not just reacting to it. If a pilot is kind of there and then kind of ahead of it and then behind it that's just a recipe for disaster sooner rather than later.

Fewer gadgets, better skills!
Chris Nicastro is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2016, 09:54 AM
  #13
c550
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Tomball, TX
Posts: 554
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Just to add a little insight to my gyro use. I have it in a Top Flite Spitfire. The narrow gear make it a little more of a challenge when it comes to takeoff and landing. The gyro does not eliminate all of the issues, it dampens some of the squirlieness of the model. You still have to use rudder, and setting it up so that it works the way you want it too will take some time, but it does tame it a little and for those that desire its ok to get a little help.
c550 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2016, 10:27 AM
  #14
BarracudaHockey
Community Moderators
 
BarracudaHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 21,888
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

It's a hobby, if you want to use it to increase your enjoyment then feel free to do so.

If someone else doesn't like it they don't have to fly your plane or drop condescending comments
BarracudaHockey is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2017, 03:00 PM
  #15
Springbok Flyer
 
Springbok Flyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,078
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

How much gyro gain are you guys using on the CARF P-51 rudder?

Jan
Springbok Flyer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 04:05 PM
  #16
bentwings
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St.Paul, MN
Posts: 430
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

While my Ziroli Corsair is not as big as your P 51 it's still a pretty good sized model. Corsairs were/are infamously and notoriously rudder happy planes. If you look at old pictures you can see them with lots of rudder taking off the carriers.

the P 51 doesn't have as much rudder authority so I think it's a bit more sensitive to the big motor torque on take off.

i used a gyro on the Corsair over twenty years ago. At the time I think I was one of the first to use it regularly. I actually got it on a bet from a heli guy. We did some ground testing without the outer wing panels in various winds on pavement. The plane was most sensitive to ground loops with wind from the plane's left side Numerous tests were done and we decided that 50% gain seemed best. You still have to apply a bit of rudder as required but the gyro definitely saved the day a couple times early on when I got off the ground a bit too soon.

After quite a few flights with the gyro on all the time I decided to try it just on when the gear was down. This worked very well but also pointed out the need for just a little rudder in turns. Loops and emmelmans where the plane slows down at the top also show where the gyro was helping out.

I eventually got got more accustomed to using the rudder manually but I left it hooked to the landing gear. The big thing here was it got rid of all the wing rocking and made landing pretty easy even in sever cross winds.

I suppose lies if you spent a huge amount of time flying a Cub cross controlling landings you could make up for lack of the gyro.

Most surely I would not try mixing aileron and rudder. This isn't going to prevent the death roll to the left on take off,....probably make it worse.

Today rather than a gyro I think I'd look at the Eagle Tree Guardian. It's a three axis gyro system and highly rated. Plus only $75. It's fully electronic with no moving parts. I'd set it up on a separate channel and I think you can use a second channel for gain control. At any rate do some ground testing in brisk winds.

i think the main thing you need to do make sure the plane has good flying speed before you leave the ground. These warbirds seem to like to take off early with big motors. INMHO

http://www.eagletreesystems.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=50

Byron

Last edited by bentwings; 10-03-2017 at 04:14 PM.
bentwings is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2017, 11:52 AM
  #17
kmtranmd
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Irvine CA
Posts: 865
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

If this fellow has a CARF, I'm doubtful he is newbie to big heavy warbirds and just new to gyros.
i would suggest you test gyro use on your 50cc bird and test it out before using it on CARF .
Im looking to put one in my ziroli p51 to give me perfect roll out down the center stripe at Funfly.
the club guys use them to help w formation take off. And these are all fantastic warbird pilots.
just nice feature to have in case of crosswind day and not be hassled. You can always turn it off too.
guys do fine w 50-75 bucks gyro. $200 seems excessive for rudder control, but hey it's not my money.
kmtranmd is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2017, 01:04 PM
  #18
peterpaps
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Sydney,NSWnot applicable, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default If your going to spend $200 , 2 words "Multiplex Wingstabi"

Hi guys ,
Check out on YouTube (multiplex wingstabi videos) 7ch, 9ch,12,16ch compatible with all receivers eg-Futaba , Hitec, JR, Spectrum,Graupner,Robbe, Jeti, and so on...... .
Lots of modellers from jets, scale, gliders and 3D are using Wingstabi systems to do excactly what you want , stability at any speed, takeoff landing and you are in control at all time , it's not just a plain gyroscope, proven tech, inexpensive and versatile for all stabilisation, and can be programmed from you PC or smartphone device with Bluetooth adapter and free app.
Hope this gives you clarity amungst the rest.
Peter Paps.
peterpaps is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2017, 04:36 AM
  #19
BarracudaHockey
Community Moderators
 
BarracudaHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 21,888
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

"stability at any speed" ?

That statement gives me pause about your understanding of how a gyro works.
BarracudaHockey is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:05 AM.