kram51

My Feedback: (3)

What you guys need to know about scale competition is the simple rule:
THE PLANE MUST MATCH THE DOCUMENTATION, that's it. It really doesn't matter at all what Dion, or anyone else for that matter, THINKS is scale. I'm not saying he's wrong, but that's not the way scale meets are judged. So, if you can find the 3-views and you build your plane TO MATCH YOUR DOCUMENTATION you can do well and even win. The irony of this is a beautiful museum peice like Dion's Corsair would fail miserably in a scale meet IF IT DIDN'T MATCH HIS DOCUMENTATION. So, while Dion's entitled to his opinion on what HE deems scale or not, in competition his opinion and anyone else's don't amount to a hill of beans.

Mark

scaleMan

My Feedback: (92)

Others state their opinion's alot nicer than he does...

kram51

My Feedback: (3)

The funny thing is even factory drawings can be shown as inaccurate when you take into consideration mods done in the field. A really simple example would be an F4U-4 with a F4U-1A framed canopy. As long as you can prove that the plane you're modelling actually had the canopy then you are more accurate than the factory drawings where a scale judge is concerned!
Dion does seem to have a "thing" for Ziroli in particular. I've spoken with Nick jr. about their plans and asked why the plans aren't 100% scale. He told me that 99.9% of the plans they sell never get built for competition. The mods are relatively easy to make them more scale, at least the planes that I've talked about. They figure if you're building a scratch build kit then you have the ability to make changes/mods to obtain the level of scale you desire.

Build what makes YOU happy!

Mark

thehoker

My Feedback: (193)

I can shed a little light on the meister/zeroli question, I have had both, the meister is a little better(easier in the low speed department),flyer but not much, not as much as you would think the flat bottom airfoil would provide.
The flaps arent shown on the miester plans but are very easy to put in, just cut off the wing behind the secondary stringer in the section you want the flaps, then cut that piece into the individual flaps, its really not hard at all(I agree that the corsair,any corsiar needs flaps for that lookShame on hanger nine not even offering flaps on a hog).
The weight isssue?
The meister will not biuld up any lighter than the Z, especially if you go for the three piece wing option(belive me a wing at 102" with that cord is huge one piecs).
I like the size and presents the meister has at the field, but the flat bottom possed a problem with the viewing of it from certain angles,you can hide some of that with shading though.
I have seen really nice models of both, and in the air , they all look even better.
I would stay away from the century only because it seems to be a lead sled, hearing weights of 50 plus pounds ehhhhwww.Matter of fact theres one for sale in the warbirds section now for a deal, but even the seller states the plane will be HEAVY.
If your newer to warbirds go with the meister,otherwise go with wich ever you can find a deal on. they both are relitively easy to build.

dionysusbacchus

My Feedback: (25)

Hi f8fbigbear!

Thanks,


Yes I will ignore the children, we don't know who these people are, all we know is that they have access to a computer! They have contributed NOTHING but negativity. Have one dork with 3 posts and he is already telling someone to shut up! Just more to add to my blocked list. I was just trying my best to answer your question and I was told to shut up and design my own plan (the first stone was cast)! Then when I defend myself the bigots come out in force, this time I am reporting all of them though, being on these boards is kind of like being in grade school again, weird!

Anyway, at one time I was going to build the Zioli Corsair but after getting the plans and looking them over I was very disappointed. It would not be a small task to correct this plan. I absolutely love the 1/8 scale Royal plans, so what I am doing is making only small modifications to them and blowing them up to 1/6 scale or 82" wing. I want to use the new BBI toys pilot figures! It's an easy task to make them whatever size you want, a 93" wing or more would be no problem. I'll add you to my list and when I get them done I'll let you know. I'm not looking to make money on this, it's just fun and I would like to see more scale Corsairs around! Looks like we have our galleries back so I can fill that with pictures, but for now here is a picture of my latest project:

Take care,

Luke

ad701xx

Now that's a Corsair! Luke, please add me to your list too whenever you get your plans done.

Thanks,

Dave

warbirdav8r

My Feedback: (11)

Something you ALL should keep in mind while you are just "stateing your opinion". We build models as a hobby. The designers or manufacturers you slam or " just state your opinion" on are trying to make a living. They are trying to reach a wide range of ability. I don't see any of them in here complaing about their customers lack of flying or building ability. Just my opinion, children. So don't you be offended either.

Glorystomper

My Feedback: (1)

What it all comes down to is that some of us are scale fidelity freaks and some of us aren't. I can see that Luke is *VERY* talented and his confidence can be interpreted as "arrogance".

Have any of you ever met any naval aviators? I hear that they're pretty "arrogant".. it's all part of who they are. Not everyone has what it takes to be a fighter pilot, just as not everyone has what it takes to be a great RC pilot/builder.

I see Luke as a "Top Gun" type of guy when it comes to building and flying.. he's got the same type of mentality and skill as a fighter pilot because he rocks at what he does and he stands way above the crowd. I'm new to the hobby and he is someone I would definately aspire to be like.

Those of you who *really* want to call him arrogant, then ask him why he doesn't enter any of those Scale Masters/Top Gun competitions.. seems to me that he could take first place with ease if he wanted to.

Just because a person points out flaws and mistakes doesn't make him a jerk.. if it weren't for people striving to make things better and more efficient, we'd still be in the dark ages. And if you guys can't handle criticism, maybe ya'll should go back to sucking on a pacifier and waiting for mommy to come change your diapers

Booyah!

YAT-28E

Stomper,
I agree....
Luke can make all the statements he wants...
we can choose to respond...
or react......[:@]
Seems like a few react
But I enjoy having someone raise the bar a little higher!
That stinks for me who is workin on his first real scale project!!
Not really ...
it is helping me spend the extra time to make adjustments to make the model
one step better!!

Keep going Luke!

jvolkes

Dion, if you don't like to be characterized as "arrogant" then why behave in a manner that unmistakingly is apparent to all that reads your posts that you are?

We know you're an accomplished modeller. We know you take great pains to "scale out" your models. We know you know a great deal about Corsairs.

We also know....you've never competed in Top Gun. You've never designed, and marketed your own model.

Why continue to make the horses pet-tooee out of yourself?

You make wonderfull hatches, guns, gear doors, etc., but you're not an accomplished and award winning modeller, nor are you a designer, builder, and manufacturer.

One needs to ask Dion, what do you know about flying, kitting, and manufacturing a model airplane? Do you have any first hand experience making molds, plugs, etc.? Have you ever designed your own Corsair model, free of all the scale innaccuracies you find so distastefull in the Ziroli design?

One also needs to ask if you're nothing more than a plastic modeller that transitioned to R/C, as you seem to be focused only on scale minutia, more so than other attributes?

Give it a rest dude. You're coming on as an arrogant *****................
but perhaps that's the image you're trying to project, who knows?

CorsairJock

My Feedback: (90)

Not all of us 'scale modelers' build our warbirds as scale as possible for the same reason. While it appears that many of them do so for the purpose of being able to compete in a scale contest (and hopefully win), others are not into it for that reason. I for one do not enjoy scale contests, because I would rather attend a Warbird fly-in with open flying, so we can get several warbirds up at the same time. At a typical contest, only one plane flies at a time (the one being judged). In other words, I for one don't build my planes to appease the judges, I build mine to fly with others. I get great enjoyment from flying my Corsairs, I don't need any trophies to make me feel better. And by the way, the originator of this thread stated that his reasons for wanting a scale was for his own personal satisfaction, NOT for competing in scale contests.

On the issue of 'minor discrepancies' in 'scale' kits: I think many of us (I know I do anyway) purchase a 'scale' kit thinking that it will be as scale detailed as the builder chooses to build it. That is, we buy a kit assuming that the basic airframe is there to build either a very detailed and scale kit or just a so- so scale plane, depending on our building skills and desire to add details. But we assume the the airframe is correct to begin with, and should not need alterations to make it correct. I find it alarming that so many of the so-called scale kits are not accurate to begin with. Of course, a classic case is the Top Flite .60 size Corsairs. So many people buy these thinking they are buying a scale plane, and no mods are necessary to make it have the profile of a full scale, when in fact anybody who has studied Corsairs can easily spot the mis-shaped wingtips and rudder. An un-knowing person could buy one, decide to scale it out by adding all kinds of details (machine guns, cowl flaps, pitot tube, etc., etc.,) and never even realize how wrong the kit is to begin with. I've seen such Corsairs at the Toledo show: expertly built and detailed, but with the unmistakable incorrect wing tips and rudder shapes of the Top Flite Corsairs. The builder took all that time to add the details, but failed to notice that the profile was wrong to begin with.

So now Luke has exposed other 'offenders'. My guess is the reason some of the people here feel as tho their toes have been stepped on is because they just now realized that the plane that they thought they built so scale authentic is not so authentic after all, and they don't feel too good about it.

All this is probably why the original question was asked, regarding scale authenticity of currenty available Corsair kits, and which is why Luke has provided the best answer yet. And I'm glad I read Lukes reviews before I spent the money on one of those kits. I was seroiusly thinking about a 1/6 scale Brian Taylor, but it looks about as scale as a Jack Devine ( no offense Jack, I'm comparing a scale kit to your sport scale kit), those wings, ARRGH!

shupack

wawawawawawaaa......... quitcher bickch'n....

someone asked about naval aviators, I know several, and when you first meet them they do come across as arrogant, but when you get to know them you realize that they know what they're talking about. a man (and a few women) that can fly an overgrown crotch-rocket and guide it to a postage stamp bouncing on a tennis ball floating on the ocean, and land in less than 150 ft, going from 200mph to zero in about three seconds, up to 5 times a day, is worthy of holding their head high. and that doesn't even take into account what they do on their missions or the rollercoaster ride from hell called a cat-launch. they didn't get there by waking up one day and walking out to a plane and launching, they do it by training, practice, more training, practice, training, weed out the week and meek, more training, more practice............anyway, what was the question? oh yeah, they're arrogant because the can do what most of us have dreamt of doing at one point or another. who hasnt' run throught the grass with bare feet, arms out like wings, going "zooommmm, whooosh bang bang, atatatatat...... " with their friends, and how many actually get to fly the real things? not alot. how many people say (or think) they wish they could detail as good as Luke? how many can (definately not me). I say Luke deserves to be arrogant about his skills, just because he doesn't have the stamp of aproval from a judge, he still has the adoration of (some of) the masses. attitude or not, most posts say "nice bird luke"

Glorystomper

My Feedback: (1)

Exactly

Now that's established.. let's get back on topic!

parabellum

is there any authoritative source for the dimension of war bird?
preferably from the government or aircraft manufacturer?

most scale/ non scale annalysis here seems to be based on photographs of aircraft rather than some sort of actual blueprint.

I hear most plastic model manufacturers rely on measurement from museum
display or photographs of them, rather than blueprints.

I guess blueprints of these planes were top-secret 50 years ago, but shouldn't
be too hard to optain these days, or are they still some sort of government
secret that no one can get to?

Shrky

Lets go back and look at what was asked for?

Seems like he is very interested in what is known in the railroad modeling community in rivet counting. He specifically asked about details affecting the scale outline of a model.

Obviously an obsession with size. Making up for some personnel "short" comings (j/k)

Asked specifically about the scale fidelity of Ziroli plans. Seems that Dion's comments about Ziroli are 100% pertinant to the poster's question. Additionally Dion does NOT state opinion but has the facts to prove his remarks about Nick's plans

Admits that even though his research is not for the purposes of competition, he has strong interest in scale fidelity. One can then assume that unlike most modelers he would not be happy with a good looking, good flying model if it has significant scale inaccuracies as the Ziroli Corsair does.

Genuinely seeking noligeable (sic) people with information about the scale fidelity of the available kits/plans available. Well having followed his posts and contruction threads here on the Corsair, I don't think that anyone can argue that Dion is probably one of if not the most qualified to answer his questions.

If you think that Dion is arrogent and has a personnel axe to grind with Ziroli, it still doesn't alter the fact that his statements concerning the scale accuracy of Nick's plans are completely correct and on topic. And remember. It's not bragging if you can do it.

Scott

John in Boston

My Feedback: (1)

Wayyy back in 1939, long before Al Gore invented the internet, and the internet "forum" too was as yet a non-entity, the gang at Vought were fast afoot designing the F4U Corsair. That was just a few miles south of me here in Boston, down among the reeds and rushes of the Connecticut shoreline at the Vought/United Aircraft digs in Stratford. But the fact that I inhale the same air that circulated and emanated then and now from Stratford, well, that is unimportant. What IS important is this:

Far, far away, amidst the clouds and fire surrounding Mt. Olympus, an altar was erected to the Bent-Winged Royal .60-Sized Corsair Model Kit and its latter-day offspring The Bent-Winged Royal .60-Sized Corsair Model Plan.

As comely virgins from the four corners of the world willingly and expectantly climbed the lyrical heights to this Place of Great Reckoning, a certain disciple by the name of DionysusBacchus conducted the appropriate rites, and in time a stunning 1/8th scale model of George Hollowell's Pacific-Theatre F4U-1D emerged, resplendent in every tone and nuance of its big brother of WWII yore.

Behold, from over the hills and far away, the gods intone: When DionysusBacchus speaks ---albeit in tones that some of the uninitiated may deem discomforting--- LISTEN !!! Indeed, the wise man knows that there's really but one path to choose, and DionysusBacchus has taken this route. Is it difficult? Yes. Is it one thousand times more difficult than ASSEMBLING a production kit that is semi-scale at best? Yes. Does it get the eye of the girls on the beach? Yes. Do the flaps AND the arresting hook drop down as the plane approaches the carrier deck? Behold, they do.

Abandon thy complaining ways, O critical masses! In a world of myth, DionysusBacchus is THE REAL THING.

John Rood

YAT-28E

as Olsen Johnson said in Blazzing Saddles:

Now who can argue with that?

I have to qoute from movies because I could never come up with any thing original!

Just remember,

I have been doing so much, with so little, for so long,

That I can now do anything, with nothing!!

I had to steal that from my old business partner!!

RickVB

My Feedback: (24)

Dear jvolkes:

A) Ziroli ~= God. Deal with it.

A1) Meister, Bates, Smith, McCurry, Taylor, etc., etc. ~= God, either.

B) Despite the fact that you admit that Dion is an accomplished modeller, detail expert, and highly knowledgeable about the Corsair in general, you still insist he can't possibly be a designer on par with Mr. God (see above). This implies that you haven't taken the time to look at his Royal Corsair thread, since you wouldn't be insisting that if you had. If this is the case, drag your sad newbie "*****" over to that thread and become enlightened, then try again.

C) HUNDREDS of wonderful, highly capable and respected scale modellers plied their hobby for decades before there was a Top Gun, or even Scale Masters. Hundreds of respected and highly capable scale modellers exist today, without being involved in the contest circuit. Lack of contest experience ONLY proves a lack of interest in competing, NOT A LACK OF MODELLING CAPABILITY. Seems to me a certain very large modelling organization we all know about was formed just for those types...

D) As has been repeatedly pointed out, Dion answered the originally posed question, which as usual for him stomped on the image many "old hands" have of some of their favorite designs, which caused the (predictable) usual painful outburst of idiotic criticisms of his background and character. Factual criticisms of his propositions might be reasonably accepted, but obnoxious namecalling based on nothing more than emotional distress is just childish, counterproductive and off topic.

kram51

My Feedback: (3)

Are you kids done? Or do we have to separate you?!?!?!?!? [X(][X(]
It is amazing to me how we've gotten to this point. We are talking about MODEL AIRPLANES are we not?
For all the collective knowledge and energy expended on this thread, not to mention all name calling etc., you still need $2.00 to get on the train in the morning. Get real and keep the energy positive. We're ALL here for pleasure. We're NOT here solving poverty or cancer OR ANYTHING REMOTELY IMPORTANT. 'Nuff said.

I for one would love to dig through Dion's site but it's been down lately. Anyone know what the deal is?

Thanks for playing!

Mark

John in Boston

My Feedback: (1)

To Mark, and all you guys who're interested in Luke's (aka DionysusBacchus) website,

I haven't visited the "RC Universe" in several months. Bad move, I agree. It's been my loss!

But I still WAS checking in every couple weeks or so to Luke's site, and I noted that his internet host company would shut him down fairly regularly. Why? Was it purely because of Luke's amazingly scale OPERATING TAILHOOK & FLAPS set-up? Nope. Was it purely 'cuz of Luke's lively and thorough documentation of what has to be one of the coolest scale model airplane builds we're ever gonna see? Nope.

Blame it on BANDWIDTH. So darn many bent-wing-bird disciples were entering the online gates to DionysusBaccha-Hoovius' Corsair build that site's hosting company would routinely get all jealous and shut DionysusBacchus down temporarily till all the bent-wing-bird disciples would turn back down the slopes of Mt. Olympus and call it a day.

Now, I have not heard from Mt. Olympus in some time now. Let's all hope that the gods will relent so we may again bring offerings to the temple of Bent-Wing Bacchanalia!

John
p.s. I wouldn't worry too much about the occasional tempestuous dialogue heard among fanatics of The Bent Wing Bird. She wasn't called WHISTLING DEATH for nothin'! It's all about the passion...the Agony and the Ecstacy. (Not to mention getting all those Corsair scale details CORRECT ;-)

RickVB

My Feedback: (24)

John and Mark, I believe Luke mentioned that his monthly bandwidth was wiped out in one day the first week of the month, due to new fan following. So you have to wait until Jan. 1 to get back in...

flythe9

What is the web site address to view the corsair construction? It is missing from the first post.

voyager_663rd

The operating tail hook/tailwheel---->AMAZING DETAIL


http://home.earthlink.net/~mt.girl/

RickVB

My Feedback: (24)

Hmmm... someone really must have pissed Luke off this time... while the above *used* to be his web site, only a few of the jpegs remain, all the html is gone. And I note that he's gone and edited all references to his website out of all his past postings (though not recently).

I-fly-any-and-all

My Feedback: (1)

revoked