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Scale corsair

Old 12-01-2003, 08:36 PM
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f8fbigbear
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Default Scale corsair

Help, all you "bent wingers" There was a thread on here that included posts about who made an accurate scale corsair(besides Brian Taylors of coarse) that included some very accurate info regarding polyhedral angles, incedence angels, outlines etc. I cannot find it. I would like to do a Meister or a Ziroli. I like the Meister because it builds light the construction appears to be less complicated and it's BIG. I know that it is listed as "sport scale" but I have also heard that Jim's outlines are very accurate. The only thing that would stop me from building it is that it is not designed with flaps. I have seen them fly and it is obviouse that they don't need them, however a corsair without those flaps Just "ain't right" and I don't feel Like re-engineering another kit, believe me, I am just finishing up a TF giant P-51B. I like the tried-and-true Ziroli design but I have heard that they have major scale discrepencies. I don't plan on going to Scalemasters any time in the near or even distant future, They both "look" like a corsair. I guess I just have a very bad case of scale fever and would like to know for my own personal info. I have noticed by reading the posts, and replys on here that there are alot of very noligeable people out there. Just when you think you know something you find out you don't know !$%@?. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thank you and have a great holiday.


James
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Old 12-01-2003, 10:41 PM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

You may want go to www.centuryjet.com and checkout there Corsair kit. It's not cheap, but is looks very scale. Also go to www.scaleaero.com and check out the American Eagle kits. they have a decent looking one if the photo is any indication of that. [&:]
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Old 12-02-2003, 01:03 AM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

I won't offer my opinion on which one is best, because I don't have one of each to compare. But I couldn't agree with you more about flaps on a Corsair, they are a MUST for scale looks. Anyone who has seen the real ones fly probably noticed how huge those flaps look when they are in the landing pattern, few aircraft have such distinct flaps as the Corsair. And, even tho most land pretty nice without flaps, they can really float in with flaps and properly set up.
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Old 12-02-2003, 02:03 AM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

Thanks for those links CorsairJock as i was looking for 1/9th scale WW-II pilots and found them at Century jet, now if I could only find a japanese one at 1/9th I would be a happy ripper!
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Old 12-02-2003, 05:52 AM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

I can tell you that Corvin Miller took a Ziroli design to TOP GUN . He told me that he moved the canopy a little and made his own cowl is all. He must have felt it was close enough. He won TOP GUN once and obviously knew what he was doing.Hope this helps.
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Old 12-02-2003, 11:46 AM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

Thank you for the replys. The comments that I have heard about Zirol's having scale problems did'nt make sense because I know that every year many of his designs win events like Top Gun and others around the world. I try to listen to everyones opinion nontheless. I have his bearcat plans that I have taken measurements on, and they are very accurate. One of our club members has Nick's Zero, that he says is very accurate, I would'nt see why his other plans would'nt be just as good.

James
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Old 12-02-2003, 12:11 PM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

I have never said that ALL of the Ziroli designs are not accurate; I also wouldn't say that if one is accurate then all must be. I have looked at the Ziroli Corsair myself and it is horribly inaccurate, I can't speak about any other designs by this company because I only care about the Corsair. Give me one example where the Ziroli Corsair has won TOP GUN, I'll still say big deal! You are talking about a design that has been around for almost 30 years, one of his first giant scale plans. I personally can't find one line on it that is accurate, and I challenge anyone to find one. The Meister is a fun scale design with a flat bottom airfoil, wrong shape fuselage and slab shaped tail feathers. If I was going to build any one of these and make them scale, I would start from scratch, it would save more time.

If you dare you can look at my analysis here:

[link=http://home.earthlink.net/~mt.girl/]Is that Corsair SCALE?!?![/link]

No hero worship here, just honest comparison,

Luke
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Old 12-02-2003, 01:08 PM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

dion, very good analysis. I too have oft wondered why designers don't design the planes per the full scale with regard to shape. Years ago the "add a bigger stab" was prevelant to help with flight. But today's planes rarely need that kind of help. For most people "close enough" is just that and thats ok. But when you become emmersed in a project or plane you really begin to see the problems and they stand out. BTW, I still like the weathering job on my small TF Corsair you used as an example lol.. Take care. BobH.
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Old 12-02-2003, 06:45 PM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

I know what you mean Bob, actually the Ziroli Corsair must have just been drawn free hand without any reference material, I don't think it was ever meant to be anything more than semi scale. Some modifications are totally unnecessary to achieve excellent flight characteristics, so why they do it so wrong we can only speculate. I have learned a lot with my latest project, when you train your eye to a certain subject it is really aggravating to see how far off some of these kits and plans are. Your little TF sure looks good for a TF! Thanks for letting me use it! To me it looks like a really nicely painted Ugly Stick with a warped wing!

Luke
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Old 12-03-2003, 07:38 AM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

Dion, don't forget an update on your maiden flights ok? Thanks. BobH
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Old 12-03-2003, 03:58 PM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

I ordered the new hangar 9 corsair and sadly to say I was not happy with the arf. It's a shame because I love this plane. OK, when I went to my local hobby store I originally ordered 2. One for me and one for my brother. By the way, me and my brother are new to the hobby and already has spent 7500.00 on airplanes and equipment in 3 months. I went to the hobby store yesterday to pick up the arf and when i looked inside the box both wings were cracked on the inside where the landing gear fit. I was glad that i caught that because i live about 45min from the hobby shop. We checked the second box and it appeared to be OK, until I got it home and the ultra cote look peaced on, and scratches everywhere. the arf doesn't look as nice as the ad on the horizon hobby site. Now I have to travel another 45min to return the arf. Just wondering if anyone could give me a site where i could order a great looking arf corsair. thanks for reading this long letter.

A
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Old 12-03-2003, 04:48 PM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

ORIGINAL: dionysusbacchus

I know what you mean Bob, actually the Ziroli Corsair must have just been drawn free hand without any reference material, I don't think it was ever meant to be anything more than semi scale. Some modifications are totally unnecessary to achieve excellent flight characteristics, so why they do it so wrong we can only speculate. I have learned a lot with my latest project, when you train your eye to a certain subject it is really aggravating to see how far off some of these kits and plans are. Your little TF sure looks good for a TF! Thanks for letting me use it! To me it looks like a really nicely painted Ugly Stick with a warped wing!

Luke
Actually, when you think about it, all we are really doing is reversing the original design process......planes of that era, Corsair, Spitfire, P-51, ect were all designed first from a drawing which was then transformed into a large model which was placed into a windtunnel. We forget that building the model exactly as the full size was built should mimic the full size flight characteristics. Of course, the smaller the scale, the bigger factor Reynolds numbers and the like come into play but the basic thought I have always adhered to is build the model exactly as the full size was built with all the flaps, slats, trims, ect and the model should fly exactly like the full size bird. Nice analysis of the different Corsair kits....I stopped building from kits years ago and only build from good three-views and really good plan sets to nail the scale.
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Old 12-03-2003, 04:54 PM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

By the way, me and my brother are new to the hobby and already has spent 7500.00 on airplanes
I got it home and the ultra cote look peaced on, and scratches everywhere.
If you're new to the hobby and starting with Corsairs then they will never look as good as they do now. ARF's are not meant to be beautiful from one inch away, all planes with Monokote or whatever are ironed on with pieces. The scratches can be removed from Monokote with a little trim solvent on a rag.

If you are going to build and fly these yourself the only thing I can say is pray for a miracle,

Luke
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Old 12-03-2003, 09:05 PM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

ORIGINAL: warbirdav8r

I can tell you that Corvin Miller took a Ziroli design to TOP GUN . He told me that he moved the canopy a little and made his own cowl is all. He must have felt it was close enough. He won TOP GUN once and obviously knew what he was doing.Hope this helps.
Yes he did, and perhaps some in this thread would like to speculate on how, and why the final design took the shape it did, but I can tell you from first hand experience that when you're designing a model, particularly a scale model you expect to market to the 'masses', then there's a few tradeoffs that need to be reconciled.

The airplane was the best that was offered at the time, and although there are a couple of guys here in this forum that are critical of the scale outline, none have designed a similarly sized model that could be produced in the numbers that the Ziroli has, and none have designed any models at all.

Much ado has been made of the location of the cockpit and the lack of slope on the fuselage nose, but these are simple modifications to the basic plan if one is 'bent' on producing a scale like replication of a Corsair.

For the rest of us, you know, those of us that look at this airplane, fly it, and have built a few of them, it's more than close enough to scale.

Having said that, and given that you said you're interested in the Ziroli, then IMO this is the best choice for you.

There are always guys that'll argue endlessly over minutia.
Does it matter to the "ordinary schmuck"...? I don't think so! You'll still "wow" the guys at the field with a fully decked out Z Corsair........
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Old 12-03-2003, 10:37 PM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

THANK YOU !! well said. If you don't like it, draw your own.
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Old 12-03-2003, 11:36 PM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

you expect to market to the 'masses', then there's a few tradeoffs that need to be reconciled.
I already made that point.

The airplane was the best that was offered at the time
Not true.

and none have designed any models at all.
You just naturally know everything about everyone in this forum? (this may be a god folks!) So lets say I have never designed a model, would that mean that in an open forum I can never say anything about a manufacturers product? Put a stop to all those reviews, hiramboesky said we can't do that!


although there are a couple of guys here in this forum that are critical of the scale outline
I was just answering the question, you sound critical of me and I find that annoying. Learning is about getting different opinions from different people, personally I want to hear as much as I can from others, some just want to hear only those that they agree with.


Much ado has been made of the location of the cockpit and the lack of slope on the fuselage nose
I'm not making anything, just stating a fact. That's what forums are for aren't they? On the other had you ARE making lots of ADO-DO about nothing! You still haven't answered the question of this thread!

For the rest of us, you know, those of us that look at this airplane, fly it, and have built a few of them, it's more than close enough to scale.
So... you're the leader of everyone that has a Z Corsair? I mean you speak for everyone that has one? And now if it's good enough for you then we all have to be happy or shut up? (narcissistic?)

Having said that, and given that you said you're interested in the Ziroli, then IMO this is the best choice for you.
Great, you FINALLY got to your opinion after telling us all about what we need to think, write and do. He said he wanted a SCALE Corsair, not what you think he needs!

There are always guys that'll argue endlessly over minutia.
Again, IT WAS AN OPEN QUESTION ABOUT SCALE!!I was just stating the facts, you on the other hand are bringing argument to the discussion. Bringing statements like that into a discussion is just rude, get off your high horse dude. What you call argue I call answering a question and rational discussion. Some do find free speech and people with differing opinions aggravating, and that's sad.
Luke
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Old 12-03-2003, 11:42 PM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

ORIGINAL: warbirdav8r

THANK YOU !! well said. If you don't like it, draw your own.

Yes man, brilliant! da
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Old 12-04-2003, 12:12 PM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

dion, your very arogant... plz shut up.....
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Old 12-04-2003, 12:26 PM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

dion, your very arogant... plz shut up.....

Amen!!!
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Old 12-04-2003, 02:12 PM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

Another Amen from me!
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Old 12-04-2003, 02:49 PM
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Cant we all just get along?
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Old 12-04-2003, 03:12 PM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

Dion,
When I stated that I had heard that The Ziroli's corsair had some scale discrepancies, I did'nt intend to mean that I had heard it from any one person in particular. That is why I inquired about the thread concerning Corsair scale accuracy(which by the way I found via your post, thank you.) I suppose winning a competition does'nt necessarily mean that a particular model is "scale" I guess it just means that the individuals who scored the event thought it was a nice enough model to win even if it was'nt "slide-rule"scale." I guess I have learned that scale accuracy is in the eyes of the beholder, and some people have better eyes than others. if I possessed the talent and knowledge that guys like Ziroli, Vaillencourt, Bates, Meister, Taylor and others possessed to design my own aircraft I probably would, of course I would be working for Boeing or Lockheed-Martin instead of an electrical contractor, therfore I will leave the designing up to the people that know how. I would like to see pics of your corsair. I am assuming that it would be built from your own plans, are these plans on the market and available for individual sale? If so I would like to have a set. Thank you to everyone for your input, especially "Dion" for his objective, candid, albeit "fiery" replies
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Old 12-04-2003, 03:38 PM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

"dion, your very arogant... plz shut up....."

Can't we be adults here, or at least act in a somewhat mature manner? I for one am glad he doesn't shut up. Dion took the time to show where the Zirolli departs from the full scale Corsair. He did a great job explaining the differences with comparison pictures. I don't know why people are taking this so personally.

If you think he is wrong, post some evidence to show he is wrong.

Name calling and telling people to shut up belongs on the playground.
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Old 12-04-2003, 04:01 PM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

Hi

I am not being Judgmental in this. But I would like point out a Judging Fact.

I used to be heavily into Dog Field Trials and I had judged some Trials as well. One of the great things about different Judges is the fact that not all of them like the same thing. What one judge like another may not.
If all the judges where of the same mindset there would not be any diversity in any competition.

So I am sure Scale Judging falls in the same lines.

ORIGINAL: f8fbigbear

Dion,
When I stated that I had heard that The Ziroli's corsair had some scale discrepancies, I did'nt intend to mean that I had heard it from any one person in particular. That is why I inquired about the thread concerning Corsair scale accuracy(which by the way I found via your post, thank you.) I suppose winning a competition does'nt necessarily mean that a particular model is "scale" I guess it just means that the individuals who scored the event thought it was a nice enough model to win even if it was'nt "slide-rule"scale." I guess I have learned that scale accuracy is in the eyes of the beholder, and some people have better eyes than others. if I possessed the talent and knowledge that guys like Ziroli, Vaillencourt, Bates, Meister, Taylor and others possessed to design my own aircraft I probably would, of course I would be working for Boeing or Lockheed-Martin instead of an electrical contractor, therfore I will leave the designing up to the people that know how. I would like to see pics of your corsair. I am assuming that it would be built from your own plans, are these plans on the market and available for individual sale? If so I would like to have a set. Thank you to everyone for your input, especially "Dion" for his objective, candid, albeit "fiery" replies
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Old 12-05-2003, 08:28 AM
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Default RE: Scale corsair

Guys
I am getting tired of forum users who feel offended each and every time when Dionus is talking about a Z-Corsair. He only states his opinion, feel free to state your own, we won't feel offended. But --PLEASE-- stop calling each other names here and disturbing good and interesting threads about scale issues.

Flo
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