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Warbirds hard to fly?

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Old 12-20-2003, 06:49 PM
  #1
cjmdjm
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Default Warbirds hard to fly?

I was wondering how much experience was needed to fly (not build) a WWII era warbird, specifically a multi-engine bomber like a B17. Can you fly such a plane as soon as you master a trainer or is a lot more experience necessary? I'm sorta new to this.
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Old 12-20-2003, 07:31 PM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

Realistically you would need a lot more experience - specifically with low wings, tail wheels, higher wingloadings...then you can add on the complications of retracts, multi engines, and flaps.

However, you can work your way up to this level through graduated steps. If I can suggest, get a 4 star 40 (or equivalent) and you can start dressing it up like a warbird, while learning to fly something with a bit better performance. When you get proficient with this, you can clip a bay off each wing...and move on from there...... it never hurts to have dreams...
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Old 12-21-2003, 07:20 AM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

I fly an A26 invader twin engined bomber, I bought it from a guy in the club who had crashed it. It cost beans, so I thought 'what the hell!'
So I took the radio out of the trainer and put it in the bomber (after repairing it). - I started flying in July 2003 and first flew the A26 in September. Fantastic!
EVERYONE at the club said i was wasting my time and that I would put it in first time. They were wrong. I love it.
You can't slide a credit card between the cheeks of my bum ('butt', for any American cousins reading this) when taking off and landing but in the air it's a dream.
I crashed my first trainer several times - but i mended it and flew it again.
In my humble opinion: if you want to fly a warbird- do it.


Cheers
Ian
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Old 12-21-2003, 11:14 AM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

That's an interesting way to phrase the question, "...to fly (not build) ..."

If you're just going to buy one from a builder, why not try a flight simulator or a high-wing trainer first? Once you get past the initial learning curve, like taking off, landing, controlling the plane as it approaches, and doing stall recovery.... then would be a good time to ask the question.

Or are you at that point now?

Good luck,
Dave Olson
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Old 12-21-2003, 12:10 PM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

Good question .
Here is what I do, When planning out which future planes I would like to build.
I take a mental inventory of what I have ie engines,radio, paint, materials Then I go and get the kit that I want.
I start building it and when it comes time to install the engine, radio etc. I either swap it out from another plane or go and buy new.
That way I am constantly changing my planes out and either selling or parting them out.

If you like OS 46 engines that engine will go on a gaggle of different planes
My OS 91 four stroke has been on 4 different planes and now awaits another airframe.
Greg
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Old 12-21-2003, 04:41 PM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: cjmdjm

I was wondering how much experience was needed to fly (not build) a WWII era warbird, specifically a multi-engine bomber like a B17. Can you fly such a plane as soon as you master a trainer or is a lot more experience necessary? I'm sorta new to this.

Question for ya, what would you do if 2 engines quit on one side of this B-17? say they run out of fuel because you started them first and had problems starting the other 2 engines. so the 2 engines on the right wing have been running for 5 mins longer then the 2 on the left.... you then take off and fly for 10 mins and engine 1 & 2 run out of fuel on the right wing. how would you take care of this problem?

1)kill engines 3 & 4 and Land
2)keep flying
3)land with (running engines)
4)other.....list

reason I ask is I want to know if you know what to do in a problem like this because this is something you need to know.
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Old 12-21-2003, 06:34 PM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

I can't see a whole lot of difference between the warbirds and a fast moving low wing sport plane when the speeds are high. But, landing and taking off are a whole different story....much more precision is needed on approach and takeoff for all warbirds I have flown that have been painted, retracts, the works. ARF's are a little easier (read that less scale) as weight is typically less. They can be much easier for certain planes. Say for example you were to buy an AT-6 ARF versus building a 63" kit which you painted and added all channels, you might find the ARF to be a way easier flying airplane. Same would hold true I think for the Mustangs available that I have seen. Problem comes in to play with how comfortable you are with disposable airplanes after the time and money investment that a nice warbird takes. Sure the plane can be rebuilt, but you've got to be bummed out about the time. My advice is to find a low wing warplane that has a reputation for flying pretty easy, fits the budget and crashability rules, and will help you get your wheels about you first before you go all in. I don't know if doing this will take away the jitters and nerves when you step up---It doesn't for me, and I am a very experienced pilot--but it does help, as stated above, to know that you're doing the right things in the right situations. This is good peace of mind when flying these things, because you'll be nervous enough just worrying about messing the thing up somehow, even with experience. The better the plane, the more steadfast has to be your approach. Really the step was a big one for me. Had the confidence that I could fly them, as was experienced with many low wing sport planes, but after three years of flying warplanes, I still haven't managed to be as easy going behind the sticks as I had hoped. I think each new project renews that feeling, first flights being the worst. The more time you get on any one plane, the better pilot you are. If you've got help around for the initial takeoffs and landings, I would say go for it. Stay hooked up to the buddy box to learn your approaches and glide performance.
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Old 12-21-2003, 06:43 PM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

In line with what Strega said, this is how I lost my 165 inch B-24. 2 engines out on the same side. YOu have to be fast, and I was not fast enough. I have 18 years of flying experience with multiple twin and multi engine aircraft. I think Strega is on the right track. Learning what to do while flying your multi is not the time to figure it out. You better have the experience previously locked and loaded, and almost an instinct. I believe it to be "unwise" to take on something as a B-17 as a first warbird....advanced at that. Sure, you can get lucky and survive if all goes well. However, in an emergency, you really have dramatically reduced your chances of saving the plane. I don't think this is to say do not fly a warbird, but rather work your way up to that level. Take your time to enjoy and work your way up, so that, when you get there, you have all the knowledge needed to enjoy it. At the same time, and at that point, if you do meet with disaster, you can be comfortable knowing that you did all you could do to save your plane.
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Old 12-21-2003, 09:51 PM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

I agree F4u5...............Were not trying to dissapoint you, its just that whoever built this B-17 has alot of time and $$$$$$ into it and chances are its scale or almost scale. So this makes it about 3 times as hard to fly it as a scale airplane, because you need to know how the airplane flys, and watch out for others out flying also because they (most of the time) wont watch out for you..... and if 2 engines go out for whatever reason you need to be on top of you're game......hell I've been flying for many years and a B-17 of any real scale would be a handful for me to fly even....and I have flown a couple B-25s also.....best thing I can tell you to do is start out slow and work your way up, learn how to build a wood kits and learn how things work when building and work your way up to a B-17.......




....I just dont understand n00bie pilots wanting to start out with the hardest things first.... its baby steps.
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Old 12-21-2003, 10:05 PM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

These guys arent trying to convince you to give it up, just take your time. I speak from experience. I've been flying RC about 10 yrs and would occasionally try a P-51 to see if I was ready. That poor plane went thru hell while I was learning. Eventually I gained the experience and knowledge I needed. The one thing that helped the most was getting proficient with the rudder. It can turn a landing thats turning bad into a NON- event. You dont want to get wild with the ailerons trying to correct your line up when you should be using the rudder. Learn how to do a proper pre-fight and then how to do a proper test flight. KNOW what you minimum flying speed is by testing your stall up high. Obvious stuff to most, but not to nubies. Last friday we (me and another pilot) saved a guys plane by flunking the preflight. He didnt have backing screws on the threaded 4-40 linkage. It failed the pull test. This was a 82" Midwest AT-6. Sucessful warbird flying is in the details. These arent sport planes. I CAN tell that when you do gain the experience you need you'll have a blast. I love warbirds.
Edwin
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Old 12-22-2003, 03:49 PM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

Well, i ask about the difficulty of flying, not building, because i figure it doesn't matter if i can build it if i can't fly it when im done, and if you mess up building it its not like its going to hit a tree and blow up as it might if you mess up flying. Also, i know a few people who may be able to aid me in building such a kit or i may purchase one already built.

And as to WarbirdAirRacing's question, what to do if half the engines on a B17 go out in flight, i choose 5) I have absolutely no clue

But curious, what is the right answer? What would you do? With that big of a thrust imbalance, even if you slammed the rudder to the right, i doubt you could hold it in anything close to straight flight. But at the same time, cutting the other two doesn't sound real smart, though i have no idea how well a B17 glides. Maybe you could bring the throttle way down, i dunno.

And one last thing, why are scale planes so much more difficult to fly? Is it that real full-size planes are incredibly hard to fly and since these are models of them theyre hard to fly? Or would an RC model of a real plane thats actually easy to fly still be hard to fly?

Thanx for your time guyz, ill take you advice and move up slowly, its just that ive always had a fascination for large WWII bombers. On that thought, anyone know of a model B36 kit off the top of your head? You know the one w/ like 6 props and a couple jets. Not that ill be building it any time soon
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Old 12-22-2003, 07:02 PM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

Check out www.warbirds.com . There is a section on flying warbirds. Highly recomended reading. You can compare how you fly a sport plane to their instructions on warbird flying. That should probably answer your questions about why warbirds are more of a challange to fly. I've only flown corsairs, love that plane. But a real challenge until you're used to it, super bad stall characteristices. Now I'm working on a TF giant P-47. In talking with a bunch of people, it was pretty much a general concensus that the Thunderbolt by any kit or arf or size is a good flying plane and a good entry into warbirds. More forgiving and a little better wing loading than others. Really looking forward to finishing it. You're gonna love flying warbirds.
Edwin
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Old 12-22-2003, 07:21 PM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

Had a guy come into the LHS last night and wanted an engine for a Pica p-51 kit he had purchased there a month before. He wanted a saito 120. The guy at the counter who races cars
didnt say a word to him. I found out hee has never flown before and he has the pica all done less engine!!!!
This kind of crap really burns me the guy would not listen the LHS is in this to make a buck
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Old 12-22-2003, 09:41 PM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

I think you meant www.rcwarbirds.com.

The other link doesn't work.

Mark
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Old 12-23-2003, 11:07 AM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

Oops! You're right kram51. Thanks
Edwin
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Old 12-23-2003, 10:34 PM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: cjmdjm

And as to WarbirdAirRacing's question, what to do if half the engines on a B17 go out in flight, i choose 5) I have absolutely no clue

But curious, what is the right answer? What would you do? With that big of a thrust imbalance, even if you slammed the rudder to the right, i doubt you could hold it in anything close to straight flight. But at the same time, cutting the other two doesn't sound real smart, though i have no idea how well a B17 glides. Maybe you could bring the throttle way down, i dunno.
The right one would be #1 kill running engines so that it doesnt yaw or snap or even both. if you slammed rudder into it it will snap even worse....but it might be different on a B-17? I dunno I've never flown one before but I have flown a couple B-25s and one of them I did land with 1 running engine but it was a very low idle speed......The thing to do would be, to have someone fly it a couple times and see how it flys at very low speeds.....remember every airplane flys different........


Quote:
And one last thing, why are scale planes so much more difficult to fly? Is it that real full-size planes are incredibly hard to fly and since these are models of them theyre hard to fly? Or would an RC model of a real plane thats actually easy to fly still be hard to fly?
You gotta remember this is a B-17 you're talking about not really a trainner or something you would want to fly when theres alot of people flying also.....the things that would make it harder is flaps, gear, 4 engines in its self would be tough to keep them tuned and running just right at all times. because they will need to be in tune with each other or you will have one (or more) that wants to pull harder then another.......I mean you can make this as scale as you want to....I know I sure would want to make it pretty damn close to scale as I could.......another thing that will help or kill you is using flaps, I myself use them on take offs (even if not needed) and most of all on landings. these tools called flaps can teach you alot about how warbirds fly.....

Quote:
Thanx for your time guyz, ill take you advice and move up slowly, its just that ive always had a fascination for large WWII bombers. On that thought, anyone know of a model B36 kit off the top of your head? You know the one w/ like 6 props and a couple jets. Not that ill be building it any time soon
Theres nothing wrong with what you want to do its just going to take a bit of time to get there. We all want the biggest and baddest warbirds out there but some may not have the money, time, or skill to get there so we have to take baby steps to get there....If you want I have a Top Flight P-51 I started for myself, and if you would like I can finish it for you to help you start out in warbirds....I myself think the T/F P-51 is one of the best planes to start yourself into the world of warbirds. It will teach you how to land, take off, use re-tacks, flaps etc. anyway if this is something you would possibly like to do let me know and I can finish it for you ready to fly....


John
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Old 12-23-2003, 11:07 PM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

Simulators- guys how realistic is the GP sims on warbirds .I can fly then so easily that I just cant believe there so easy in real time ?
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Old 12-24-2003, 08:41 AM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

LDM,
I like to use the G2 simulator to stay in practice during the winter months. I have the planes set up to match the ones I have (size, weight, engine size, etc.) They act pretty close to the way the actual models do. I think it's actually a little harder with the simulator. With the sim. you have tunnel vision and no depth perception so landings are harder.

Jim
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Old 12-24-2003, 09:16 AM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

4 engines in its self would be tough to keep them tuned and running just right at all times. because they will need to be in tune with each other or you will have one (or more) that wants to pull harder then another

Very easy to do!! Go electric!!
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Old 12-24-2003, 06:32 PM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: ilike2fly

Very easy to do!! Go electric!!

Whats the point of that? [sm=confused.gif] guess I like the sound of gas/glow engines running all out
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Old 12-24-2003, 08:03 PM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

The skills required for this kinda plane graduation are gonna be different for everyone.A big help is to spend quality time on the G2 simulator.For instance with me,when I first learned how to fly rc planes I spent approx .2-3 hours a night on the sim for a constant 4-5 months.I flew a trainer & solo'ed in the first day.I then only flew a trainer for 4 weeks then went straight to a WM P51 mustang and the transition was very easy for me.Now this is only cause I spent so much time on the sim & 8-10 hours each day on weekends flying my trainer.I then only flew my P51 for about 4 months before going to ducted fan jets.I have/had flown at least 20-30 different planes before & during my transition to jets.Now I only fly mostly my jets -own 7 now,I occasionally will throw around my Midgett mustang or big aerobatics.I rarely fly anything but jets now ,cause for me nothing else can really satisfy my thirst or the rush that my jets give me.There is nothing like a blistering low pass at 200 plus mph!! I dont fly warbirds anymore.I have owned a Corsair,P47 & 3 mustangs tho.I just happened to scope out this forum tonight.I do love warbirds-they are still very big at my field


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Old 12-25-2003, 07:54 AM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

Steve thanks fo rthe feedback on the sims . I learned to fly the same wau 100% on the original GP sim.Then went to a duro plane, then a Built up trainer ,then stand off scale low wings , Double wings and Electric jets .

I am going into more ww2 low wings with a P40 and the H9 corsiar. I will be spending time on the new GP 2 sim

My question on War birds is you alwyas hear night mares about ground handleing , right rudder on takeofs , low speed stalls on landings, the need for rudder on landings ect .

Is the GP2 realistic in these problems .because GP1 is way to easy , its really tuff to get a warbird to stall on approach and take-offs are as easy as trainers .

Thanks for any and all advice -FYI the H9 is a piece of work , the kit is great
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Old 12-27-2003, 03:57 PM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

Whos P-40 kit are you going with ?[8D]
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Old 12-28-2003, 09:57 AM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

Its a discontinued Global kit .The plane is great ! Its worth a total bash.
I added 90 % retarcts vs p51 style in the kit, I added interior, pilot, pitts style muffler , rebuilt the tail to more scale lines.
Now splitting the flaps, and working on the covering .
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Old 12-28-2003, 06:35 PM
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Default RE: Warbirds hard to fly?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: LDM

Its a discontinued Global kit .The plane is great ! Its worth a total bash.
I added 90 % retarcts vs p51 style in the kit, I added interior, pilot, pitts style muffler , rebuilt the tail to more scale lines.
Now splitting the flaps, and working on the covering .
Sounds badass! got any pics of it? I remember those old Global kits, they use to be pretty good kits for the most part. good luck with ya project[8D]
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