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F2G Corsair Build

Old 06-06-2004, 05:21 AM
  #101  
dionysusbacchus
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

I love you, Lukeh! *mwah*
OK... But I was hoping you would sing me a song![&o]

The small protruding leading edge of the upward moving aileron helps create a drag force on that side of the wing that assists the yaw affect on that side of the wing, making for a more efficient turn. The downward moving aileron on the opposite wing has the effect of increasing lift on that side, but it also increases drag--that drag increase can result in something called "adverse yaw", which is a force that would normally cause a plane to yaw AWAY from the intended direction of turn. The frise aileron affect counters this force, improving the handling of the plane.
f4you, that is absolutely brilliant! I wanted to take a guess at what aerodynamic forces were going on, but I'm glad I didn't! Thank you for your input.

In that type of aileron, you DON'T want any gap (or at least minimal gap) between the wing and aileron.
Looking at the Corsair aileron it looks like they meant to have air go through the gap. The gap is considerable and the leading edge and passage through the gap is very smooth. Only testing will resolve this I guess or maybe you could tell me why or can someone else tell me?

See the picture below of the Corsair aileron and gap:
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Old 06-06-2004, 08:19 AM
  #102  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

Luke,
Do you have any photo's of that Aileron taken from the top? I bet you don't see much if any gap as it looks like there is some overlap of the top sheeting past the TE much like we do it with 1/64 ply on our models. Found some photos of this in Detail& Scale pg 43



Glad to have you back with another good thread.

Pete
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Old 06-06-2004, 06:17 PM
  #103  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

Luke

This discussion has been worth it just for the new photos it has produced! Great stuff. I think I'll stay away from the Frise idea for my TF Corsair, but I'll watch how you and others get on 'cos I'm treating the TF as a learning exercise before I get into a 1/6th scale masterpiece. By then hopefully we'll know how good those ailerons work. I read somewhere that at low speed (landing) the drag stays high but the ailerons lose effectiveness so the yaw effect get's exagerated and pulls the model the opposite way to what the pilot intends. I guess though that the pilot should be using rudder then anyway.

Pete

Where did that page of photo's come from? Looks like a valuable reference book for us Corsair fanatics.

Happy landings
Brian
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Old 06-06-2004, 07:39 PM
  #104  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

Do you have any photo's of that Aileron taken from the top? I bet you don't see much if any gap as it looks like there is some overlap of the top sheeting past the TE much like we do it with 1/64 ply on our models. Found some photos of this in Detail& Scale pg 43

Glad to have you back with another good thread.
Hi Pete, I've been looking at Corsair ailerons for a while now! Like I said in post #66, I'll close the gap with 1/64 ply after the flaps are cut and hinged. The gap I was talking about was at the bottom, mine are tight, much tighter than the full scale looking at the pictures. But with the gap filled at the top I guess it won't matter. I have the same book, it's a must have. The drawings suck but the pictures are very nice.

Thanks Pete, glad you like the F2G thread!

I read somewhere that at low speed (landing) the drag stays high but the ailerons lose effectiveness so the yaw effect get's exagerated and pulls the model the opposite way to what the pilot intends. I guess though that the pilot should be using rudder then anyway.
Hey Brian, Yes, if you use ailerons on your final landing approach then you are doing a bad, bad thing! I'm sure they will do fine though. I'm sure Vought would have done something different if they didn't work!

Dion
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Old 06-06-2004, 09:06 PM
  #105  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

ORIGINAL: dionysusbacchus

"Looking at the Corsair aileron it looks like they meant to have air go through the gap. The gap is considerable and the leading edge and passage through the gap is very smooth. Only testing will resolve this I guess or maybe you could tell me why or can someone else tell me?"

I see what you're looking at, now----the bottom surface of the wing has something like a "pocket" in front of the aileron leading edge--no "gap seal" there at all, and none required. However, if you look at the top of the wing along the aileron leading edge, it will have an overhanging "gap seal" that keeps air from spilling through between the wing and aileron leading edge. It is positioned so that as the aileron deflects, it's leading edge follows this seal nicely, keeping the gap minimal. If you close the gap on the upper surface with 1/64" ply, you'll be duplicating the full size ship very accurately. Should be an awesome scale feature to incorporate!! My next one will have it.
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Old 06-06-2004, 09:27 PM
  #106  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

Guys the Friese type aileron serves 2 functions.
firstly to reduce adverse yaw. As the up aileron goes up like was stated earlier, there is the lower portion which sticks out in the airstream to help counter the drag from the down aileron. the down aileron creates much more drag than lift. therefore the nose of the up aileron counters it. Also the "nose" of the up aileron acts as a type of spade to reduce the amount of control force necessary to actuate the controls. This nose is also where the balance weights are located on the full size airplanes. Friese type ailerons have considerably lighter stick forces than standard ailerons thereby helping to increase aileron effectiveness and lighten up roll control. this is why the corsair had such light and delightful ailerons. The Hellcat required spring or servo tabs to lighten the controls to the level of the Corsair.
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Old 06-07-2004, 07:47 AM
  #107  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

Great, thanks for the input everyone, I really enjoyed it! I'll get back to building now! Keep us updated f4you on your "next one" I want to see what you do. I am sending off the parts and plans sheets to have them enlarged for a wing span of 82", I'm hoping I'll get them back in a week or so. Probably rush this F2G together because I need to start on the big one soon. The flaps are next...


Dion
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Old 06-07-2004, 07:07 PM
  #108  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

ORIGINAL: hoonnz

Pete

Where did that page of photo's come from? Looks like a valuable reference book for us Corsair fanatics.

Happy landings
Brian

Brian,
The reference book is:
F4U Corsair
Detail & Scale Vol 55
Author: Bert Kinzey
Squadron/Signal publication
ISBN 1-888974-08-7

Excellent photos and 5 view drawings. It's a keeper for bent wing nuts

Pete
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Old 06-16-2004, 12:51 PM
  #109  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build

Thank you for that Pete.

Hi Corsair fans, well it’s been a little while so I thought I’d update a little. Not much work has been done but I was waiting to get a picture of the inner flap hinge among other things. I did decide to make the flaps as scale as I could go with them.

1. First I cut out the flaps and capped them off with balsa. The wing opening was covered with 3/32” balsa.

2. Next I marked a line on the flaps where the hinge pivot point would be. The hinge point will be on that line and 3/16” away from the flap.

3. Next I made the templates for the hinges. Here are the hinges for the outer most flap. I do not show the hinges with the slot in them for the inner flaps but they are basically the same. For the wing between the first and second flap I just used 1/16” ply. I cut all of my hinges out of PC board.

4. Here is a great shot of a hinge you never see! This is the hinge on the first flap next to the fuselage. The pivot point is in the belly pan; just one bolt holds it in!
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Old 06-16-2004, 12:54 PM
  #110  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build

1.Here is my rendition of that same hinge, it looks a little different but it works the same way, and you won’t see it anyway.

2.The wire is glued into a block in the flap ( the end of the wire is bent back toward the trailing edge to stabilize it and keep it from twisting) and into a piece of 1/8” ply, a small wheel collar holds the end.

3.Now you can see all the flaps hinged, notice the square flap hinge next to the aileron.

4.They work very smooth, I have to hold them in the up position or they will just drop all the way down as shown. The flaps will now have to be properly rounded at the leading edge and then the 1/64” ply will then be added over the leading edge of the flaps and ailerons.
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Old 06-16-2004, 12:57 PM
  #111  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build

1.The bottoms of the flaps leading edges will be rounded also and again 1/64” ply will be added to simulate the small doors in front of the flaps on the bottom. I could have made these work too but you have to stop sometime! Next project for sure!

see you's cats lata,

Dion
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Old 06-17-2004, 02:02 AM
  #112  
Florian Kuehni
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build

No working doors?? C'mon

Looking good Luke, still watching with interest

Flo
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Old 06-18-2004, 02:39 AM
  #113  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

Pete
Thanks for that reference, I'll look out for the book.

Luke
Thanks for that flap hinge photo - I am just up to starting the flaps on my TF bird, and the innermost hinge was driving me nuts. I couldn't find any reference to it then you came up with the goods. Great stuff.
I see that your flaps are scale size - the TF middle flap is far too big, I am going to modify it and the inner to correct length.
The Royal design looks more accurate than the TF, and looks like it might be quite a bit lighter?

Happy landings
Brian
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Old 06-18-2004, 12:31 PM
  #114  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

Flo I want to see your project and doors! Glad to have you following along, if you see me doing anything wrong please chime in!

ORIGINAL: hoonnz

Luke
Thanks for that flap hinge photo - I am just up to starting the flaps on my TF bird, and the innermost hinge was driving me nuts. I couldn't find any reference to it then you came up with the goods. Great stuff.
I see that your flaps are scale size - the TF middle flap is far too big, I am going to modify it and the inner to correct length.
The Royal design looks more accurate than the TF, and looks like it might be quite a bit lighter?
Your welcome Brian, what timing! I have never seen a picture of that hinge in all the books I have, and have never seen a drawing of it either!
My flaps are scale size in both width and length. I know the flaps on the TF Corsair are the wrong length and width, I didn't measure them but it's pretty obvious just looking at them. It would be VERY difficult to modify the TF kit so it has flaps that are the scale width (width being measured from leading edge to trailing edge) because of the rear spar. You would have to make a ply secondary spar like the one on my Royal and then you could cut into the trailing edge. If all you are going to do is make the middle flaps length shorter then that will be OK. Are you doing the hinges as I am doing mine in this build?

I have been working on and have constructed the parts for a new way of deploying the flaps! 100% concealed and no bell cranks or anything in the wing! The flaps are coming along great, can't wait to show them!

Dion
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Old 06-18-2004, 04:05 PM
  #115  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

Gidday Luke!

You continue to be a legend and a crazy in here, great!

I am back in New Zealand after 5 glorious weeks in Canada with my girl, and returned with a set of
CJM's for my Corsair. Yay!!

I had nothing to fly up there, and it was driving me nuts, but i did read RCU to death
every day to stay sane. (err presuming i am in the first place *lol*)

This project of yours really gets me (and others) really thinking about things, and
challenging many of the methods for model construction. Needless to say your
construction and ideas, along with everyone elses, is incredibly inspirational ! Thank you all !!

The only down side to this madness, is my long term scale aspirations and goal, is rapidly
becoming a MASSIVE detailed project.

Is that bad? []

Maybe not

Anyways, thanks for challenging us all, and continue on this awesome project!

I laugh when i see you talking about the 'next one' while you are in the early stages
with this current one. Your an addict. And its infectious!

Onward Ho!!!

Goose.
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Old 06-19-2004, 05:11 AM
  #116  
hoonnz
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

Luke

Yes I am doing my hinges like yours. I was going to use Robarts and fair them with balsa to look scale, but I'm not happy with that because so little of the shaft actually goes into the wing blocks. Your hinges (in circuit board f/glass?) will obviously be very strong.

Since seeing that inner hinge my mind is stewing up some scheme to use it to drive all the flaps, maybe the inner end of the hinge becomes a torque rod - I'll sleep on it. Time to go and charge my model, flying day tomorrow.

Happy landings
Brian
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Old 06-19-2004, 06:45 AM
  #117  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

ORIGINAL: hoonnz


Yes I am doing my hinges like yours. I was going to use Robarts and fair them with balsa to look scale, but I'm not happy with that because so little of the shaft actually goes into the wing blocks. Your hinges (in circuit board f/glass?) will obviously be very strong.

Since seeing that inner hinge my mind is stewing up some scheme to use it to drive all the flaps, maybe the inner end of the hinge becomes a torque rod - I'll sleep on it. Time to go and charge my model, flying day tomorrow.
Yea the robarts are to short and won't allow for any play in the hinge joint, it needs just a small gap between the first and second flap hinge point because the geometry is not perfect. This very small gap does not allow for any play in the flaps however. I'm using Printed Circuit Board Epoxy-Glass FR4 Board, it is a little flexible and is super strong. You can rough cut it with large tin snips, and then use a dremel to get close to your line, then I use various metal files to smooth the part. I do use my scroll saw for the hard to cut places, but the PC Board will destroy your blades in a hurry.

Good idea on the torque rod idea, I have already done it! I used heavier spring steel for the inner flap hinge and just made it longer going into the center of the wing. The only hard part about this is bending the steel so that you have 2 perfectly matching hinges, I did it after only messing one bend up, works great. I would post pictures but the batteries in my camera need charging.

More later,

Dion
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Old 06-19-2004, 06:59 AM
  #118  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

Hey Goose,

Glad you like my latest little project! It might be little but it's big on detail! I to have been enjoying this thread, I really appreciate any input, comments or ideas, everything helps. You get your Iron Bay Corsair yet! My next project is getting huge also (in scale detail not just big!) I got my plans back yesterday, man they look nice. The old 1/8 scale plans blown up to 1/6 scale for a wing span of 82. This is a perfect size for me, it will allow me to add all the detail I was wanting to add like folding wings and scale flap push rods with the small flap doors! I think it's great your next project is getting bigger and bigger! I'm glad I'm not alone in my madness!

Dion
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Old 06-19-2004, 07:46 AM
  #119  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

Lukeh!

I'm back into warbird mode! After getting out of trade school and coming back to work with a new crew, I learned that SIX of the guys I work with are into RC!!! Only two of the other guys are into planes (one is an experienced builder/flyer, and the other is my cousin who originally got me hooked).

All that wingfolding and scale talk is getting me all hot and bothered again! Hopefully all that stuff will be able to fit in the 1/8th Royal kit
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Old 07-07-2004, 01:24 PM
  #120  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

ORIGINAL: Glorystomper

Lukeh!

I'm back into warbird mode! After getting out of trade school and coming back to work with a new crew, I learned that SIX of the guys I work with are into RC!!! Only two of the other guys are into planes (one is an experienced builder/flyer, and the other is my cousin who originally got me hooked).

All that wingfolding and scale talk is getting me all hot and bothered again! Hopefully all that stuff will be able to fit in the 1/8th Royal kit
Great news Glory! Hope you get some flight time in with the co-workers and cousin, let me know how it goes. I'm glad your not sitting next to my plane, I'd have to slap you! I believe I could easily make the wings fold on a 1/8 scale Corsair, make them air or servo, well maybe!

Hi all…*Yawn*…Ok, well I have been working a little. Actually I took a short break, did get the flaps working great. I wanted to close the fuselage but I needed the canopy to do the rear cockpit area, so I got busy on that. When you look at the pictures tell me if you think the canopy looks like the F2G or not. It was hard to find good pictures looking down on the aircraft.

I didn’t take a bunch of pictures, no need to. Don’t think many will use my method anyway! If you can sculpt then go for it, I love working with clay and I’m pretty good at it so for me it’s a perfect way to make parts. I first made a 1/16” ply profile of the canopy using my plans, then built the top half of the fuselage with the ply profile in the middle. I then Monokoted it and started sculpting the canopy. When I get the clay shaped I hit it with a heat gun to smooth it out, it will melt the clay so be careful.

I’m going to use Plaster Of Paris throughout because it’s cheap! I built a small dam around the form and brushed on some plaster with a 2” wide soft brush. This will eliminate the bubbles, then quickly add the rest with your hands. I added one more layer of paper towels dipped in plaster to build it up a bit.

It pulled right out of the mold, now after it dries I’ll cut the ends of the mold off to make it easier to remove my plug.
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Old 07-07-2004, 06:21 PM
  #121  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

That is amazing! Your inginuity is incredible.
I think it looks right.
Have'nt had much time to work on my F2G, it is the height of construction season, so if I'm not working in the office or in the field, I'm flying.
Anyway, keep up the great work!
Ted
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Old 07-08-2004, 10:05 PM
  #122  
dionysusbacchus
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

Thank you Ted and I'm glad you like my work. The canopy is not perfect but I didn't want to spend to much time on it, I really want this one to just be done so I can start on my 82" Corsair. I've been gathering parts for that one, and it has really distracted me from this project. Earl Aune has very kindly agreed to make one more set of retracts for my project from parts he has left over from when he had them in full production. I shouldn't be talking about it! Looks like you are going to push that project into another winter then? Keep plugging away, it'll get done and maybe I can inspire you a little more with what I'm doing here!
ORIGINAL: F2G-1

That is amazing! Your inginuity is incredible.
I think it looks right.
Have'nt had much time to work on my F2G, it is the height of construction season, so if I'm not working in the office or in the field, I'm flying.
Anyway, keep up the great work!
Ted

I don't have anymore clear plastic, made a bunch of stock F4U-1D canopies, John Rood has one of them for his new project. Check in at his thread and give the man some support, it should be interesting. I will make an order either tonight or tomorrow for the plastic I need, by then the plug for the canopy should be completely dry. I should get the plastic in 3 or 4 days. Anyway I thought I'd show you how my plug came out. I just broke the mold to get it out, no need to keep it and I didn't want to damage the plug. Next post will be canopy vacuum forming time...

Dion
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Old 07-08-2004, 10:21 PM
  #123  
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

Luke,
As usual nicely done. Well I started to work on my TF Corsair again after giving up on Sierra retracts and working on other projects. Keep motivating us

Pete
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Old 07-09-2004, 08:52 AM
  #124  
Florian Kuehni
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

Go on Luke, I'm quiet but watching with great interest.

I'm surprised that you built the canopy form almost "free-hand". It's really looking good. I usually do this work with the side profile and formers.

Flo
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Old 07-10-2004, 10:16 PM
  #125  
Glorystomper
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Default RE: F2G Corsair Build Sneak Peak!!!

Luke can build anything with a little spit and bubblegum! NICE canopy, dude! I'm gonna need one of those when I get around to my Race #57
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