crownvic

It seems like all there is any more are fly ins .Here in area X1 we had only 5 scale events this summer and only 4 allowed fun scale. I wish we had more but they dont seem to be well attended.Most fun scale events had 3 classes expert sportman and novice. A place for everyone to fly.I think it is a great way for flyers to get started in scale with out having to spend tons of money and time on exact scale . there probaly should be a little more emphasis but on the picture you bring for your documetation To me the flying is the fun part of fun scale.

lonnie

kram51

My Feedback: (3)

Great job there! Thank you for sharing. It can be done, it just takes forethought and perseverance as shown above. These are ideas that anyone can make part of their meet.

Mark

Asanders

My flying buddy has a 72 inch Corsair... We have been practicing formation flying for a month now.. it is a blast... I dont have a Corsair I usually fly my 62 inch Spitfire or my 64 inch P-47 with him... we have a blast trying to stay together \... making our turns and the fly bys are just awesome to watch ... we taxi out to the runway together turn around and then do a stagger takeoff.. we are working up to the point where we can do an even closer take off.. the other day he made his landing approach while I was just behind him and slightly above with my Spitfire.. gear down and flaps... he landed I peeled off and came in behind him.. we just have so much fun since we are both frustrated fighter jock wannabes in our middle ages ! lol
I dont know if we would ever want to actually compete doing this .. adding the stress and pressure of competition to flying a warbird doesnt sound like a lot of fun to me.. but then that is what is so neat about this hobby/sport.. we fly what we want to fly and compete or just have a fun fly event ...

I have the Giant TF P-51 .... my Giant P-47 is scheduled for completion in another month My buddy has the Giant Corsair on the boards... I canonly imagine howmuch fun we will have when we are comfortable enough to fly those big birds together !

kram51

My Feedback: (3)

I don't think the pressure should be any greater than what the routine itself will bring to bear on you. I'm not looking to create a high pressure situation. Where's the fun in that? Maybe, with this particular idea it would be better to make it so that the other pilots get to judge your routine. You couldn't have any other planes in the air anyway so get the other pilots involved and let them rib you the whole time. Would also make for good armchair piloting while gathered around the keg . . .errr. . . coolaid afterwards!

Mark

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

I was lucky enough to have Dick Allen and Ralph Jackson (people most of you don’t know, but they mean a lot to me) as scale mentors when I started scale modeling. The reason I bring this up is that I was calling for Dick one time at a contest and noticed that his hands were shaking so bad that he would only touch the sticks when he needed to. So I commented “ How do you fly so smooth with your hands shaking like that?� He said. “When they stop shaking its time to find a new hobby.�

I started competing shortly there after and I was hooked also! I enjoy building, with the exception of covering (do to physical problems) but flying is were it is at for me. I go to flyins with a bunch of great guys and we have a good time. But at the end of the day the one that has fanned the fire of modeling in me the most is a contest. The problem we as scale modelers have is the availability of good builders, in this world of readily available scale ARF’s why build? My son is a perfect example. He tells me al the time I don’t need to build, I’ll just buy ARF’s (with that I know daddy will fix the scrapes and dents for me smile)! Weather you like it or not that is the attitude of a lot of today’s fliers, to the point were a lot of perfectly good pranged models get trashed because the owner does not know how to fix the problem.

I live in the birthplace of IMAA and that means that almost everyone wants to fly –in. They don’t want to be bothered with contests. How do I change that mentality? How do I get them to try a contest? Because I know that once they are there for the most part they will have a good experience, they will learn, and they will go away with that desire to do better.

Fun Scale is not cutting it, I’ve held fun scale and sport scale contests. I’ve even prepared documentation for people and they no show. But if I hold a invitational fly in I’ll get 20 to 30 fliers. I can sit here and talk about what I want out of the hobby but that is not the issue, the issue is what will renew interest in scale competition! I’ll even go one step further and How do I start pulling pilots away from fly-ins? My goal is to take all the flyer away from the fly-in, but how do I do it?

I love doing mach combat with my son. The two of us competed in704 1/12 scale combat for as long as there were competitors and had a great time! The best part of it was the trash talking while you fly, and after. Everyone who watched us enjoyed it and a lot tried it but with anything like that escalation took hold and removed even myself from the mix. Why can’t we provide the same fun at a scale contest? Mark talked about a combat scenario contest I’m there! I’ll even hold one if we can get a set of workable rules but the rules have to do two things to be successful:

-Provide the pilot builder with a forum which protects his mount from harm enough to reduce the risk two the equivalent of two guy’s flying formation.

-Provide a forum that will not promote escalation (the plane I fly this year will be just as affective next year and ten years from now). With a heavily weighted realism score I think this can be done.

Gone flying

Joe

kram51

My Feedback: (3)

There are two obvious benefits that come from the new "team" idea. One, your practice sessions are with your buddy. You're not flying alone! It shouldn't be about how close you can fly with each other necessarily but the symmetry of the flight routine. It would be better to select a comfortable distance and then the trick is to work to maintain it. When a lead and his wingman went into combat they weren't flying wing tip to wing tip. That would nullify the advantage that they give each other. That type of flying was on the way to and from the combat area. With a large enough field take offs and landings in near unison should not pose a problem. This is the one part of an event where no other planes should be flying. These guys have to worry only with each other.

To me Fun Scale maybe is asks too little and the jump to sportsman can seem a quantum leap. There's no middle ground. It's like starting kindergarten and then being put into 12th grade. I like the post above . .

Two things I like here. The modified documentation requirements AND the awards and raffles. Nothing gets people involved, at least in my experience, like the chance to have fun and win some free stuff. I mean, who can't use another bottle of CA? A Zona saw? $25 dollar gift certificate to the LHS???

Here's an idea. Marry the fly-in to the scale meet. How do we do that? The fly in portion is run as is, fly, have fun, etc. The scale meet portion is in the middle. A shortened event of sorts where any registered pilots can now also try their hand at flying a scale routine and have it judged. Do the usual proof of the model, pictures, etc. Most guys at the fly ins take a bit of a break anyway after a couple flights. Perfect time to jazz it up. Involve the crowd, should you be lucky enough to have one. They are handed a ballot and they select the People's Choice award.

I hope that's a start .. .

Mark

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

escalation is the natural order of things. People will either escalate (improve) either in their flying and or building abilities. The secret is in how we score them. In my contest it is 0 points for no documentation, 5 pts for the funscale type of documentation ie 3 views, pics etc. now for the guy who goes hog heaven with his scalemasters documentation it is only worth an additional 5-10 pts. So as you can see , the escalation is minimal and controlled and everyone sees, undestands and enjoys. We still fly 10 manuevers, 5 mandatory for all pilots and the rest the choice of the pilot. We fly 3 rounds with the 3rd round optional. This is where the fun begins because with one pilot deciding to fly his 3rd round with the hope of improving his scores, could, would and has affected the standings. We all like a lil strategy and mystery with our flying. Go to www.omahawks.org and past events. See Funscale and or BB gun for the pics. It is a great time and theevent takes care of its self. I ask for feedback at every event and the replies have always been, don't change.

rdcracer

My Feedback: (2)

We are sorta new to scale competition. We have entered 3 Scale master qualifiers. I don't see what is wrong with the way they are now. We are currently in Funscale and it is a great way to get your feet wet. While you are doing this you also have about 2 days with some of the best modelers to pick their brains and get help for the next level. If you are a great builder but not so flyer(this describes me) then you have team scale. I do like the team scale idea of paired flying. My advice is to lose the ego and just get out to an event and give it a shot. Forget about losing an event and think about winning the knowlege and fun!
Just a newbies 2cents

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

I think you will understand the frustration of loading up to travel 300-400 miles to a contest to get maybe four flights then pack back up and come home. If I've got to do that I'm not bringin one plane I'm bringin two or three, in scale contests pressently only one entry per pilot. While at the fly in fifty miles away I can bring as meny planes as I want and can sleep in my own bed at night. Where I live in Binghamton, NY we were hit by the flyin bomb over twenty years ago and it has wiped out scale competion completely in all of New york state (excetp long island, but that's realy not part of the state anyway, Hee Hee) and most of PA also. When attempts to get scale competion going here again, are made I have to compete with flyins for pilots. So tell me how do I even the playing field. Because I'm not going to hold a contest were the judges out number the contestants.

The only advantage I have over a fly in is a flying pilot wont get stuck in the air at low fuel waiting for some guy to clear the runway from a landing mishap. And of coarse manufacturers give more goodies to contests.

So tell me how do I convince that guy who has gone to flyins for 13 years to give a scale competition a chance?

My solution is increase the number of flights they can get by running multiple flight lines, allowing multiple entries by the same pilot in the same event. I've also been told "why should I bother to document my model, when the fly in's don't require any." The solution to that is similar to what the RCCA has done by creating a list of kits that meet their scale criteria. They handled color and marking by saying that the plane had to be covered era appropriate. With ARF's we can actually say the factory scheam is acceptable or not so we could concevably creat a list that lista outline acceptable kits and outline color and marking acceptable ARF's.


Now getting down to the brass tacks of the points 5 or zero. I've done my share of competition and alot of that was in Fun Scale and I enjoyed every minute. Every plane I have is capable of getting the 5 points, but every contest that I've gone to there are 20% that don't get those 5 points. They are allowed to fly but rellagated to finish in the middle of the pack at best because of the 5 point disadvantage. If it were me that would just be more of a challenge but as the guy who allway gets the five points I don't need that advantage. I'ld rather everyone that had a plane with a reasonable scale outline and painted in colors that are era appropriate start out on = ground. I don't need a advantage to win!

Will such an event work? I wont know till we try it.

Joe

Now I ask you if you were that guy would you be happy with that? Or would you be happyer if they put you in a seprategroup of scale but no documentation requied if there were enough pilots to do that? being that the five

kram51

My Feedback: (3)

First I can say that you're no "newbie" if you've been to 3 scale qualifiers. I have yet to enter my first. Second, no one said there is anything wrong with the current format for "serious" scale competitors. I would hope to reach that goal some day. They are great events. The trouble is there are fewer and fewer of them all the time. As Paladin has observed, most would rather go to flyins. This is the crowd we're appealing to. I'm glad you stated your opinion about the team scale idea. Not everyone can fly with another plane in the sky. That won't be held against you. Unfortunately, your ego is the one showing, loud and clear. This thread is for those who want to try and better themselves and the FUN that is potentially in a scale meet.

As stated in my opening post, I have no illusions of winning in any event I enter for the first time. I also asked for CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM. If you feel this thread doesn't help in anyway, you know where the door is . . .

I edited my comments as I felt, despite the unfriendly nature of the above post, that I can at least do my best to keep in on topic. MT

Mark

crownvic

What is so difficult about finding a picture of your plane unless it is not scale?

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

Well Mark, I think the public has spoken. I have not seen anything positive. Or any interest in this type of offering.

We tried

Joe

kram51

My Feedback: (3)

You know Joe, one of the clubs near me had a scale flyin today. It was a lot of fun. It used to be a real scale meet, with judging and documentation and all. They did away with all that. All that's needed is a picture. It doesn't even have to be the actual plane modelled, just proof of the type. There were some really nice planes too. Of course, as seems to be the case at most flyins, only about half actually flew. The rest must be hangar queens. Then there were the requisite hoard of Extras from 60 size up to 40% scale, complete with totally nonscale schemes and flight routines. It was fun, but it was no scale meet. I think the flyins allow guys to bring their hangar queens out, get some accolades on what a beautiful plane they have, and never fly it. I spoke to no less than three guys that all admitted they've NEVER FLOWN the models they had with them. I will try what I can to help energize some of the guys. I'm moving soon to Virginia and guess what, there's a Warbird Fly in . . . .

Mark

tlovett

My Feedback: (9)

I have looked at this thread and the one it started with in the Scale forum.

I know I remember when there were 5 scale contests within a 30 mile radius here in the D/FW metroplex. This was before the days of FunScale. And at each of those contests, there were between 20-30 airplanes! All fitted into Sportsman, Expert, Giant and Team Scale. Hey! Some guys flew one in Expert and another in Giant! We had a blast and it was two days of battle....

We just had a Scale Contest the last weekend in August. Now, we got rained out on Saturday, but just like always in Texas, "If you don't like the weather, just wait 30 minutes" Sunday was a beautiful day so we had a one day contest. The turnout was just 9 pilots.....

There were four of us that are going to the Scalemasters this month and we didn't bring out those birds ( not enough time to repair any mishaps). But we were there with other planes.

Our club has over 200 members and on any day there are tons of scale planes that would fit into the FunScale events that we hold with every Scale Contest we have. Where were all those guys? They showed up with those Pitts, Tonis, Shoestrings, Extras and Caps to fly as soon as the contest was over! We try to pump life into what I am afraid is a dying horse, but the fact is that in this day of "I want complete satisfaction NOW!", most people will not take the time to build a scale bird with full documentation.

We split Funscale into beginners and expert classes so a pilot could truly get his feet wet without competing with someone that "doesn't need the five points". Still there were only two guys that came.

I have a close friend that builds scale airplanes, that are built with completely scale schemes, but he will not compete. He tells me that he does not want the stress involved in contests. I can live with that. We have been going to big bird flyins across the state together for years! That is just the difference between people.

I will continue to CD scale contests for those that wish to compete. We put money into the club from fees and concessions and got to have a day without having to deal with the 3Ds hovering in the middle of the field, the hot rods doing nothing more than boring holes in the sky and the sailplanes flying across the end of the runway! We had a good time and hopefully recruited some others.

I wish we were headed to Kansas today! And you know what? I am looking completely forward to being there and competing! My airplane is not the most beautiful scale bird that will show up, and it has control horns on the ailerons and elevators, but I look forward to the friendship and good clean competition that I find at the contest! In 2002 I had a mid-air with Joe Topper's huge Ju-52 that took the bottom left wing off my 92" Nieuport 24 in the second round. We were in Arizona and I think there were at least five guys from there that offered to open their workshops to me for the night to repair it if I wanted. That is the spirit of the sport!

You gotta love it!

Tim Lovett

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

Tim, I to am discouraged with scale competition. Not from the rules aspect or the comrodory but simply from the participation! Now being in the birth place of IMAA I think we are turning the corner because here there are people (me for one ) asking is this all there is (fly-ins), is this our future? I’m seeing absolutely gorgeous planes show up at flyins and they are also echoing the same sentiment. How do we (as scale modelers) capitalize on that?

I can't for a minute beleive that scale competition is just saposed to slowly die off unless we let it. So how can we compete with fly-ins?

Got to go

Joe

tlovett

My Feedback: (9)

I think there will always be folks at the fly-ins that are not interested in the heat of competition. Those people will never be interested in true scale competitions, and that is okay. I think the ARF generation has really hurt scale. In this day of "I want satifaction now!", the ARFs are the key. I am not sure how to bring those people into the scale world. We have tried hard to include those folks, but it seems slow. We are still trying and will continue to try.

I think the older people that started in the hobby before the ARFs, still like to build their planes. This is not the case with the newer flyers that came into the hobby with an ARF trainer. Many of them have never built an airplane from sticks and sheets. May be a classic case of not being able to perpetuate this side of the hobby.

But, I also think if you have a core group of scale builders that are willing to help the new guy get his first build from the plans to the air, this side of the hobby can grow in any area. We will see. We started a monthly get-together with scale builders and it was amzing how many wanted to attend. We have stopped for awhile and need to get it started again. Most of what we did was pass ideas back and forth. Ernie Harwood brought some WWI hand made wheels and tires to one meeting and showed us how to make them....

Just some ideas.

tim

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

Tim, my Idea was to make a list of ARF’s that pass the outline test. Then a separate list of the ARF’s that pass the Color and Marking. Now if you have and ARF that is on both lists your ready to go. The CD does not need a scale judge and all the contestant needs is to bring the plane. All the fun scale rules will still be the same. Although I’ve gotten some guff from prospective scale contest participants that fun scale is still not fair because All of my planes can garner the 5 points (because I done this before) and they may loose them because they don’t. After I offered to put a scale doc pack together for their plane they turned me down flat ( so I have to assume that was their way of trying to let me down easy). But I would be willing in any fun scale contest to eliminate all the scale points and fly even up if everyone will do it. So maybe it should be an option.

I realize that there are people that will never try a contest and that is fine but what is missing in my area is that we have a bunch of guy’s that are good builders (but don’t fly) and we have a bunch of ARFer’s that don’t build, and very few in between. Thankfully I am one of the tweeners. But I can remember going to regional meets with more experienced guys, being introduced to their friends, asking questions on how to (wether building of flying). Today all that is gone because I have to travel 300-500miles to attend a scale contest and I have not found a pilot in my area yet, willing to share those expenses.

So I’m left here in the middle of a contest desert asking myself how can I compete with that flyins for pilots? I don’t want to close down that flyins just draw a respectable number of pilots. If I can do that then there is still hope. So what if a guy competes with an ARF, after he sees what everyone else has it may inspire him to try something new. If not hopefully he will have enough fun to return for next year.

Joe

kenair

My Feedback: (10)

As an ex scale competitor I wish I could offer you better advice than to say you are beating on a dead horse. At our fly-ins we see may fine scale planes, all fly and fly often while the local scale masters qualifier gets 4 or maybe 5 entrants, same 4 or 5 as last year and the year before and the year before.

Many reasons: at any scale contest there is usually some tension, some one wants to win, nothing wrong with that but that creates tension at the field, a lot of folks have stressful tension filled work weeks and want ZERO tension, ZEROstress at the flying field.

Ever discuss kids sports with the parents, we'll have a baseball game but not keep score, geez some parents get bent out of shape instantly, when you mention relaxing rules with some scale competitors they get down right uptight, and some one is usually getting bent out of shape over the way the contest was run.

at a scale contest someone is always preaching how competition is great for the hobby - ok, ok, ok, ok, I got the message.

At every contest there are many graciuos competitors and one overly competitive nit picking rule abiding stickler person that is a stick in the mud that only sees things black and white.

bottom line - contests are not great fun, go to a fly in, fly your brains out with your scale ship, you'll have much more fun
(sorry)

cheers - ken

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

Ken, I know where you are coming from. But that same guy (I afectionatly call "a legend in his own mind") is at the fly in also. Now I can ignor him just as well there as at a contest, but its the new guy that always goes up to him and get's his feelings hurt.

I think you are right though, as much as I hate to admit it I think scale contesting is doomed. That would be just to bad.

I've had a medical problem that kept me from really getting serious with competion so it has been flyins for me now I find myself getting better and My flying has really suffered because of the lack of focus required to contest.

Joe

kram51

My Feedback: (3)

How about adding small bits and pieces to the Flyin concept to bridge the gap? Best ARF. Best ARF with an a Original scheme . . ..

thoughts. . .

Mark

kenair

My Feedback: (10)

doomed, maybe for the masses but I encourage every one to do their own thing.
If you want a scale contest then realize you will attract a smaller number of flyers but go ahead and have a contest but save your enery and not convince others to do your thing.

If you want a larger number of flyers, then a scale rally may be the way to go or a fly in like warbirds over wawa.

Fun and contest are an oxymoron, no?

A few years ago, an older r/c flying buddy (ex 104 pilot), noticed that I would be getting all stressed out at scale contests, he advised that I maybe put some fun in my hobby and concentrate on flying scale airplanes scale like for my own and others enjoyment at low key fly ins, it's been a good change for me.

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

Kenair, the key is that scale contests are doomed in their pressent format.

They require the club sponcering to train a static and a number of flight judges that fly-ins just need not bother with so the fly in even looks better to the club.

Fly in may be low stress, but I just don't leave them with that burning desire to make a master peice. I have a great time renewing aquantences and fling and taking pic's and I enjoy it a great deal, but its not a contest.

I'm rambling

Joe

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

Hey Kram, just had our scale meet and I have to say ot was a success and I learned something. This event is in its 6th yr so people look forward and plan for it. I had minimal advertising and we still had an impressive turnout . The guys say, they dont want trophies....called them dust collectors. They prefer the cash. They want the raffle to have a nice kit not an arf. they want thiings simple and fun. Just something extra for fire.....

tlovett

My Feedback: (9)

Hey Ram-Bro,
How many entrants did you have at the contest?

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

we had about 18 total sign up but not that many flew.....winds gusting up to 20 mph. No crashes, some hot competition and everyone had fun. i asked at theend what does everyone wnt tosee inthe contest and I was truellysurprised . No trophies or plaques, less ARFs, keep it fun and flexible, its not a pattern contest and we are klooking forwardto next yr. We had in the area at the same time as the scale contest a big bird fly-in and I did not advertise. So the turn out was good. It really was kinda of an impromtu experiment because I didnt have the time to organize or propagandize(that a word?). I want to take this to thenext level, we are planning on having a scale masters qualifier next yr....if I get my stuff together.