Vailly Hurricane
08-31-2004, 02:10 PM
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Vailly Hurricane
This could be my next project. If you would like to donate your building and flight experiences it will be appreciated. Engine selection is appreciate too.
BTW, it better fly well after spending all that coin on the Siera Retracts, Ouch!
Piece of Cake
BTW, it better fly well after spending all that coin on the Siera Retracts, Ouch!
Piece of Cake
08-31-2004, 02:23 PM
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RE: Vailly Hurricane
Moggy,
Mine is in paint right now. G-62 for power and Seirra retracts. Projected weight with ballast . . . about 26-27 lbs. My own combination of fiberglass and Solortex with a latex finish. All the Camo is on, I just need to paint the markings and weather.
Chuck
Mine is in paint right now. G-62 for power and Seirra retracts. Projected weight with ballast . . . about 26-27 lbs. My own combination of fiberglass and Solortex with a latex finish. All the Camo is on, I just need to paint the markings and weather.
Chuck
08-31-2004, 04:06 PM
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RE: Vailly Hurricane
ORIGINAL: Moggy
This could be my next project. If you would like to donate your building and flight experiences it will be appreciated. Engine selection is appreciate too.
I own and have flown a Vailly Hurricane...still hanging from my garage ceiling and all ready to fly. Probably never fly it again. terrible landing characteristics (and I'm not the only one who has experienced this). I've asked this list several times to hear from folks who have successfully flown this plane (not just heard second hand that it's a great flier with no vices or stood beside someone who flew the plane) Nobody yet has come forward who has experience flying this plane. My experience is as follows: great takeoff and level flight characteristics. Very little right rudder needed for straight down the runway. weight all up is about 32 pounds but has lots of detail as I built it for the Scale Masters. 3W 60 engine turning a 22 x 12 Mejlik CF prop. Landing is a different story. I have four flights on the plane and three broken wings as a result. The plane simply will not flare. If I bring it in too fast, it balloons, one click lower on the throttle and it mushes into the ground...there is no in between...now I have flown many, many scale warbirds at competition level so it's not my inability to fly the big, heavy iron and I figure nothing was as tough to land as my LA-7 but the Vailly Hurricane simply won't flare. Even the LA-7 would flare at exactly the right speed (which was very fast) I have a buddy who also flies at the Scale Masters....his Vailly Hurricane exhibited the same inability to flare...he sold it and last I heard, the guy that bought it added nose weight and still can't flare the plane....I balanced the cg at 18% back from the leading edge....this is a universally good point to balance as it is not too nose heavy nor tailheavy but just right and is where I balance all my warbirds. Now I have a theory that says if the plane is a good, solid flier, you'll see a bunch of them...especially if they are out there in numbers like most of Vailly's plans are
....when was the last time you saw a Vailly Hurricane show up at the field and fly? Again, I ask, if there is anybody out there with first hand experience flying this plane, I would love to hear from you and see what I am doing wrong...I love the Hurricane but won't risk another broken wing unless or until I can figure out how to get it to flare.....nuff said
Piece of Cake
This could be my next project. If you would like to donate your building and flight experiences it will be appreciated. Engine selection is appreciate too.
I own and have flown a Vailly Hurricane...still hanging from my garage ceiling and all ready to fly. Probably never fly it again. terrible landing characteristics (and I'm not the only one who has experienced this). I've asked this list several times to hear from folks who have successfully flown this plane (not just heard second hand that it's a great flier with no vices or stood beside someone who flew the plane) Nobody yet has come forward who has experience flying this plane. My experience is as follows: great takeoff and level flight characteristics. Very little right rudder needed for straight down the runway. weight all up is about 32 pounds but has lots of detail as I built it for the Scale Masters. 3W 60 engine turning a 22 x 12 Mejlik CF prop. Landing is a different story. I have four flights on the plane and three broken wings as a result. The plane simply will not flare. If I bring it in too fast, it balloons, one click lower on the throttle and it mushes into the ground...there is no in between...now I have flown many, many scale warbirds at competition level so it's not my inability to fly the big, heavy iron and I figure nothing was as tough to land as my LA-7 but the Vailly Hurricane simply won't flare. Even the LA-7 would flare at exactly the right speed (which was very fast) I have a buddy who also flies at the Scale Masters....his Vailly Hurricane exhibited the same inability to flare...he sold it and last I heard, the guy that bought it added nose weight and still can't flare the plane....I balanced the cg at 18% back from the leading edge....this is a universally good point to balance as it is not too nose heavy nor tailheavy but just right and is where I balance all my warbirds. Now I have a theory that says if the plane is a good, solid flier, you'll see a bunch of them...especially if they are out there in numbers like most of Vailly's plans are
....when was the last time you saw a Vailly Hurricane show up at the field and fly? Again, I ask, if there is anybody out there with first hand experience flying this plane, I would love to hear from you and see what I am doing wrong...I love the Hurricane but won't risk another broken wing unless or until I can figure out how to get it to flare.....nuff said
Piece of Cake
08-31-2004, 05:42 PM
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RE: Vailly Hurricane
Did you call Roy and ask him what's going on with this beast? You're right about not seeing many. Let's see if anyone answers your challenge to come forward and put the cards on the table. I hope that Chuck doesn't get discouraged. Could it be wing loading the way it is detailed out? Maybe Roy will hop in if he gets wind of this thread.
08-31-2004, 06:20 PM
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RE: Vailly Hurricane
I didn't call Roy but my buddy did....unfortunately, some of these plan designers figure it's the pilots problem not theirs and that was Roy's perspective when my buddy spoke with him....he claimed the plane flew fine. I rarely bother speaking with plan designers anymore as I have built and flown enough of these planes that I can usually figure out what the problem is and fix it....not in this case, however. I set the tail, wing and thrust line incidences at zero and 32 pounds is not a very heavy load for something like 1100 sq inches of wing area...I guess we'll just wait and see what, if anything someone with experience on this bird has to say
08-31-2004, 07:50 PM
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RE: Vailly Hurricane
Chuck
Hurry up and get that baby airborne so we can see if the characteristics are designed into the plane. BTW, you did a nice job on her. I hope you have better luck than LA7flier.
Com'on you lot, there has to be more Vailly Hurricane drivers out there.
Piece of Cake
Hurry up and get that baby airborne so we can see if the characteristics are designed into the plane. BTW, you did a nice job on her. I hope you have better luck than LA7flier.
Com'on you lot, there has to be more Vailly Hurricane drivers out there.
Piece of Cake
09-01-2004, 10:28 AM
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RE: Vailly Hurricane
Moggy,
I have been in contact with a Top Gun pilot whose has flown one for 13 years now! He said just cg it a little forward of the plans and she should be fine. I did build mine with 2 degrees of positive in the wing and 1 1/2 in the Stab. This will give you a down thrust effective. I fear this might be the case of LA7fliers problem. He built his 0/0. The weight of his plane is fine. it should be a floater (for a warbird) at thoes numbers. oh, well we will see what happens.
Chuck
I have been in contact with a Top Gun pilot whose has flown one for 13 years now! He said just cg it a little forward of the plans and she should be fine. I did build mine with 2 degrees of positive in the wing and 1 1/2 in the Stab. This will give you a down thrust effective. I fear this might be the case of LA7fliers problem. He built his 0/0. The weight of his plane is fine. it should be a floater (for a warbird) at thoes numbers. oh, well we will see what happens.
Chuck
09-01-2004, 05:25 PM
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RE: Vailly Hurricane
Moggy
If I recall correctly, 18% was a bit forward of the plan cg...could have been 1/2 inch or so but I don't remember as I built the plane about 6 years ago and haven't flown it for 2 years. Regarding the incidences....I have always built at 0/0/0 unless the full size flew with a distinctive nose up or nose down tendency. Chuck put 2 degrees pos in the wing and 1.5 degrees pos in the stab. I don't think that will substantially affect the flight characteristics but I can't recall what the plans called for. Chucks plane looks very nice (and reminds me of mine before the BoB camo went on) One thing I did contemplate is whether full flaps is blanking the elevator. When I built the plane, I put full flaps (85 degrees I think it was) in it and landed with full flaps. Some have commented that the Vailly hurricanes they have seen look to have a very small tail surface. I'm not convinced of that but I have never measured the tail surfaces of a full size bird and scaled them down. It wouldn't make any sense to put smaller tail feathers on the plane as it would make it much more difficult to fly. Putting more nose weight into the plane didn't cure the problem and I have removed a very small amount of nose weight thinking it might solve the problem but haven't flown it to test the theory...it is still well within cg envelope. One interesting point, I read a report of a pilot that flies a restored Hurricane out of the LA area...I think it belongs to the CAF or something like that. His report was rather startling as he said it was a very difficult plane to fly....extremely pitch sensitive and required retrimming with every throttle change. DFlying formation with it was exhausting. He did say it landed just fine, however so I'm left with trying to figure whether I've somehow incorporated some odd charactistics into the flight envelope...still haven't seen a Hurri driver step forward with experience on this bird....they appear to be rarer than hens teeth and like the legendary Flying Dutchman, many have heard they are out there but none have actually seen one.....
If I recall correctly, 18% was a bit forward of the plan cg...could have been 1/2 inch or so but I don't remember as I built the plane about 6 years ago and haven't flown it for 2 years. Regarding the incidences....I have always built at 0/0/0 unless the full size flew with a distinctive nose up or nose down tendency. Chuck put 2 degrees pos in the wing and 1.5 degrees pos in the stab. I don't think that will substantially affect the flight characteristics but I can't recall what the plans called for. Chucks plane looks very nice (and reminds me of mine before the BoB camo went on) One thing I did contemplate is whether full flaps is blanking the elevator. When I built the plane, I put full flaps (85 degrees I think it was) in it and landed with full flaps. Some have commented that the Vailly hurricanes they have seen look to have a very small tail surface. I'm not convinced of that but I have never measured the tail surfaces of a full size bird and scaled them down. It wouldn't make any sense to put smaller tail feathers on the plane as it would make it much more difficult to fly. Putting more nose weight into the plane didn't cure the problem and I have removed a very small amount of nose weight thinking it might solve the problem but haven't flown it to test the theory...it is still well within cg envelope. One interesting point, I read a report of a pilot that flies a restored Hurricane out of the LA area...I think it belongs to the CAF or something like that. His report was rather startling as he said it was a very difficult plane to fly....extremely pitch sensitive and required retrimming with every throttle change. DFlying formation with it was exhausting. He did say it landed just fine, however so I'm left with trying to figure whether I've somehow incorporated some odd charactistics into the flight envelope...still haven't seen a Hurri driver step forward with experience on this bird....they appear to be rarer than hens teeth and like the legendary Flying Dutchman, many have heard they are out there but none have actually seen one.....
09-01-2004, 05:28 PM
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RE: Vailly Hurricane
Moggy,
La7flier and I have discussed his problem in other forums. My remarks were not intended to slam LAflier in any way. He his a scale competitor and builder so he knows what he is doing. Heck, even his buddy had the same problems. On Vailly plans, it calls for the incidence numbers I stated previously. I built it to plans. I too would like to know the problems he is having so we can all avoid that issue. Once again, this is not in anyway to disrespect LA7flier in his building or flying capabilites.
Chuck
La7flier and I have discussed his problem in other forums. My remarks were not intended to slam LAflier in any way. He his a scale competitor and builder so he knows what he is doing. Heck, even his buddy had the same problems. On Vailly plans, it calls for the incidence numbers I stated previously. I built it to plans. I too would like to know the problems he is having so we can all avoid that issue. Once again, this is not in anyway to disrespect LA7flier in his building or flying capabilites.
Chuck
09-01-2004, 05:41 PM
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RE: Vailly Hurricane
never took any offense to you Chuck...like you, I would love to fix this problem so I can fly my Hurricane and only put this out for anybody with one of these planes to contemplate...your plane looks great and I hope it flies as good as it looks....did I read your post right? 2 dgrees pos in the wing and 1.5 degrees pos in the stab? I would think it would be 2 pos in the wing and 1.5 NEG in the stab
09-01-2004, 06:02 PM
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RE: Vailly Hurricane
A friend of mine built one, Sachs Dolmar 3.2 Jr radio (Circus Hobbies back then)
Flew fine, had the custom gear from Gene whats his name out of California (he and his buddies built the A-1Sky Raiders with Webra Bully's in them) Barton is his hame.......Gene Barton Machining.
The only problem was the tail. My buddy didnt weigh the wood when he built the plane and he had to put 6.5 lbs of lead in the nose to come out right. But the plane flew fine and landed fine just the gear was a little weak.
I personally witnessed these flights and helped him build the plane. I have often thought of a Hurricane but want a Zirolli P-40 instead.
JDs
Flew fine, had the custom gear from Gene whats his name out of California (he and his buddies built the A-1Sky Raiders with Webra Bully's in them) Barton is his hame.......Gene Barton Machining.
The only problem was the tail. My buddy didnt weigh the wood when he built the plane and he had to put 6.5 lbs of lead in the nose to come out right. But the plane flew fine and landed fine just the gear was a little weak.
I personally witnessed these flights and helped him build the plane. I have often thought of a Hurricane but want a Zirolli P-40 instead.
JDs
09-01-2004, 08:48 PM
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RE: Vailly Hurricane
What we need Chaps is more pilots to step up and get in the conversation. This is an interesting subject matter. I recall talking to Clark about his 1/4 Hurricane an he said the full scale was a monster to fly. Great steady gun platform but a monster to fly. He also said his Hurricane flew like the full scale. The plane should flair though. An email I got from a Chap who is selling a DBScale Hurricane said he heard the same thing about the Vailly not flairing.
We don't need hearsay or conjecture, we need Vailly Hurricane pilots. I know there is a couple of guys in NY that fly his Hurricane, they are on his web page. Maybe word will get out about this thread and we'll get some answers.
A flair is a stall, right? Or is it a controlled crash? Chuck, can we get your Chap who has been flying one for 13 years to get on board with this thread?
JDs, 6.5 lbs of lead ? Holy Schmidts!
Piece of Cake
We don't need hearsay or conjecture, we need Vailly Hurricane pilots. I know there is a couple of guys in NY that fly his Hurricane, they are on his web page. Maybe word will get out about this thread and we'll get some answers.
A flair is a stall, right? Or is it a controlled crash? Chuck, can we get your Chap who has been flying one for 13 years to get on board with this thread?
JDs, 6.5 lbs of lead ? Holy Schmidts!
Piece of Cake
09-13-2004, 02:54 PM
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RE: Vailly Hurricane
Chuck,
Just another future Vailly Hurricane builder (and flyer hopefully) echoing the request for you to keep us all up to date. Mine will have a 3W 50i (should be able to cowl the whole thing in). I'm waiting for Darrell at Seirra Precision to make a set of retracts for it.
Thanks in advance,
Sam
Just another future Vailly Hurricane builder (and flyer hopefully) echoing the request for you to keep us all up to date. Mine will have a 3W 50i (should be able to cowl the whole thing in). I'm waiting for Darrell at Seirra Precision to make a set of retracts for it.
Thanks in advance,
Sam
09-13-2004, 03:57 PM
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RE: Vailly Hurricane
Sam and all,
I will keep everyone posted of my results. Right now I'm finishing up the paint and will post pics soon. I took every safe measure to keep the tail as light as possible because I too have heard the horror stories of all that lead in the nose. I don't know if I will get the chance to test hop her this fall yet, (the leaves are already turning here in Michigan) however I do plan on cg'ing her and possible ground tests. This will be my contest plane so . . . I'll take it slow.
Cheers,
Chuck
I will keep everyone posted of my results. Right now I'm finishing up the paint and will post pics soon. I took every safe measure to keep the tail as light as possible because I too have heard the horror stories of all that lead in the nose. I don't know if I will get the chance to test hop her this fall yet, (the leaves are already turning here in Michigan) however I do plan on cg'ing her and possible ground tests. This will be my contest plane so . . . I'll take it slow.
Cheers,
Chuck
09-20-2004, 10:35 AM
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RE: Vailly Hurricane
All Hurri fans,
Paint on! Well I'm finally getting down to the fun part. For the past week and a half I have been painting the Hurri. The Camo is Behr Exterior Grade Flat Latex and all the markings are Model Mastors Acrylic Paints.
I'm still in the process of weathering so . . . we're not done yet.
The exhaust stacks are home made. Same process as we (Perfectpilots.com) make our pilots. I think these could be functional with a couple of coatings of BVM heat sheild. And finaly painted with the Model Masters Paint.
I weighed it last night as you see it in the pics. All servos are in Minus receiver and Battery packs. She weighs about 20lbs. The first CG test took about 3lbs with the cg very forward of the indicated position on the plans. My target weight is 24 lbs.
I'll keep on working on her.
Cheers,
Chuck
Paint on! Well I'm finally getting down to the fun part. For the past week and a half I have been painting the Hurri. The Camo is Behr Exterior Grade Flat Latex and all the markings are Model Mastors Acrylic Paints.
I'm still in the process of weathering so . . . we're not done yet.
The exhaust stacks are home made. Same process as we (Perfectpilots.com) make our pilots. I think these could be functional with a couple of coatings of BVM heat sheild. And finaly painted with the Model Masters Paint.
I weighed it last night as you see it in the pics. All servos are in Minus receiver and Battery packs. She weighs about 20lbs. The first CG test took about 3lbs with the cg very forward of the indicated position on the plans. My target weight is 24 lbs.
I'll keep on working on her.
Cheers,
Chuck
09-20-2004, 11:21 AM
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RE: Vailly Hurricane
Chuck
That is one beautiful plane! I'm extremely impressed with your workmanship. Although I've heard that Sierra's retracts are the finest, I'm leery of the wait until I can get some. I've been in touch with Lenny Sarbin at Shindin Machine and think he'll be able to make a set with scale profile oleos. He said he's got some people he knows who have built and flown the Vailly Hurricane so I've asked him to put me in contact with them so I can get some information. Anything I get I'll post here. Sounds to me like your Hurricane will be on the light side for one of Roy's birds, so with that G-62 it ought to fly wonderfully. Thanks for the updates and keep 'em coming.
Sam
That is one beautiful plane! I'm extremely impressed with your workmanship. Although I've heard that Sierra's retracts are the finest, I'm leery of the wait until I can get some. I've been in touch with Lenny Sarbin at Shindin Machine and think he'll be able to make a set with scale profile oleos. He said he's got some people he knows who have built and flown the Vailly Hurricane so I've asked him to put me in contact with them so I can get some information. Anything I get I'll post here. Sounds to me like your Hurricane will be on the light side for one of Roy's birds, so with that G-62 it ought to fly wonderfully. Thanks for the updates and keep 'em coming.
Sam
09-20-2004, 12:37 PM
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RE: Vailly Hurricane
Chuck
Robert Stanford Tuck would surely be pleased with the job you did on his HURI. I can't wait to hear the flying results. Great Job!!!
Robert Stanford Tuck would surely be pleased with the job you did on his HURI. I can't wait to hear the flying results. Great Job!!!
09-20-2004, 07:56 PM
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RE: Vailly Hurricane
LA7flier,
I found the response!
I found the response!
Had and flew a Vailly Hurr. for several years--3.2 Sachs on meth.--initial weight balanced at plans location was 28 lbs.--nose weight was gradually reduced to 26.5lbs. by flight experience to keep it from being tail heavy[if tail heavy the plane will climb as throttle is reduced or swoop upward on a quick power reduction to idle]--had much difficulty in the flare as described above--tried landings with no flaps,a lot of flap, a little flap and a medium setting with same result--for a while the only way I could land it decently was to come in with a low flat approach with a good bit of power and chop power with the wheels near touching and then feather with elevator as long as possible--even then it touched down faster than it should considering the broad chord and thick wing--after much discussion with club members and others it was determined that airflow over the elevators was being blocked or reduced so as to kill elevator response--I never solved the problem and sold the plane with advice about the above limitations--as it turned out, the problem was solved with a very simple solution by my friend--I had built the plane with what I thought was a large amount of elevator throw--my friend removed the elevator, re-hinged and increased my original throw by about 30% and the problem was solved--slow landings with good flare-----therefore, rig your elevator so that it has a high throw angle, much greater than you think is needed--if its then too much in the air for your comfort take off and fly on low rate and increase to high rate max elevator throw for landing--if you have any questions call me after 6 c.s.t. 225-629-4724--Hal Ware