GC Flyer-RCU

Rudder -
Every take off and landing, most turns. Turns in a warbird look like a slide or a skid if you don't use a coordinated effort.
It took me a while to learn this - I had always used rudder on takeoffs and windy landings, but until I got out of the sport plane and into a warbird, I didn't notice anything strange about an aileron/elevator turn.
Good Flying,

Heywood_Gablomi

I am about to get into my first real warbird. I have been flying sport types up till now. Are they that hard to fly. By reading this rudder saga I am getting alittle scared.............

Heywood G

lnorris

My Feedback: (1)

They aren't that hard, they are that different. Flying 3D well is hard, flying pattern well is hard, and flying warbirds well is hard. But each requires different skills and understandings of the aircraft.

The real warbird usually has a high wing loading and less than 1:1 power. This means you fly them a lot closer to scale. To some this is boring but, if done correctly, it's quite a challenge.

This thread has demonstrated that rudder usage is more or less required to fly a real warbird which is not hard, just different than your standard sport airplane.

Note: By "real" warbird I mean those that are not a sport airplane done up to look like a warbird. Nothing wrong with those but they don't fly like warbirds, they fly like sport planes (which is the intent I believe).

GC Flyer-RCU

Well said Inorris -
They are just different, not neccesarily any harder.
Heywood Gabloni - Fly around and get used to using more and more rudder on your sport plane as well as the warbird, and you'll see and "feel" the difference.
What kind of plane are we talking here anyway?
Good Flying,

BernieG

hahum.....That is the exact proper way to.....crash......

See, you are going slow, then power up. Torque tend to lower the right wing, you add right aileron, increasing drag, while you are already slow.....= tip stall !

Mustang51 was right, rudder is the proper input correction.

BernieG

Don't be.....It's pretty natural and normal to use rudder input to make corrections, and not just in turns. You can't fly pattern properly without using your rudder ALL THE TIME, even when just flying straight and level, if there is some side wind.

What is not usual to most RC pilots is to counteract adverse yaw with a bit of rudder input, as most sport/pattern plane don't need it.

If you want to train for that my best advice would be for you to fly a 10 feet glider.....you'll learn very quickly to use your rudder properly then.....

BernieG

I can. The answer has nothing to do with piloting skills, but with some aerodynamic knowledge, and some hours flying 1:1 gliders.

Rudder is used in a turn to counteract the "adverse yaw" effect
Adverse yaw come from the fact that, if you input ailerons to turn right, the right alieron goes up, thus diminishing the "apparent" Angle of attack on the right side, while the contrary happen on the left side, so the increased drag on the external side of the turn tend to slow down that wing, tending to put the nose of the plane going outside of the turn. So if you want to keep "coordinated", or more simply symmetric, you have to imput slightly right rudder.

Ever seen a little piece of wool on the nose of some planes (Lockeed P80, for example) ? That's the best instrument to know if you are flying symmetric (Don't see that usually on the nose of a prop fighter, for some obious reason... )

BernieG

Hehe, Good question ! What about: because you are not flying , as an answer ? I mean, you are not flying on the wing. On a "pure" torque roll, you are flying only on your prop, Rudder and Elevator are effective ONLY because they deflect air moved by the prop. Ailerons SHOULD NOT be effective at all, if they are, it means the plane is moving upward, and is not doing a real torque roll, or at least part of the ailerons are also on the airflow produced by the prop.

lnorris

My Feedback: (1)

OH, I thought that was just an unlucky sheep..



Bernie, Warbird_lover was just trolling. He's just loves to try and get a rise out of people although this thread did turn up quite a bit of information.

btw, exactly what did the wool do?

BernieG

Simply indicate the relative wind, so if you're slightly un-coordinated, you'll see it. Much more sensitive than any other costly instrument !

aeropenguin

My Feedback: (1)

I'm sorry, but after this has been dead for a while, I still have to say

ALWAYS

is the right answer. Am I the only one who flies 3 channel planes? Am I the only one who's first plane had only three channels - throttle, elevator, and NOT aileron, but RUDDER!!!!! I learned to ONLY use the rudder and elevator for everything, and when I got to the aileron stage, I didn't use them often, but more and more...now I use them all equally and well. You see?

-aeroP

fly4food18

My Feedback: (15)

All the time.

lnorris

My Feedback: (1)

*deleted*

Katana

I use it most of the time and always before it veers off one way or the other on the ground, you have to on these "taildraggers".
hope this helps

ramcfarland

My Feedback: (44)

Practice practice the more competent you become incorporating rudder with roll and pitch the better you become . Maybe some of our fellow war bird pilots didn't start with a pattern or sport aerobatic aircraft and I commend them for getting into war birds from the get go. As for me hummm lets see..I learned ailerons on a Goldberg Skylane 62 way back when then progressed to a sport acrobat:the old Andrews trainer master and then purcashed an Aero Precision FW TA-152 and rolled inverted when it was nearly out of sight,pulled back on the stick and WAMMMMMMM-So I went back to flying sport aero bats and practicing pattern type flying and (okay I'll shut up) after flying pattern ships made a rather easy transition to war birds.

aeropenguin

My Feedback: (1)

Somehow I am blanking out here - here's the procedure for a right turn - right ailo, up elevator, right rudder, and sometimes more throttle, right? Or is it with left rudder to help keep it up and act as an elevator? Does this change in a very tight bank where you are practically knife-edge turning?

Thanks!
-Michael

Katana

It's left rudder to keep the nose up. If you use right rudder then you have to pull too much and you'll stall it out and do a death spiral. A death spiral you can't get out of, thats why its called a death spiral.

aeropenguin

My Feedback: (1)

thanx. But what if you aren't banking very hard, but rather very slightly? Then since the rudder is still vertical, you'd have the ailos turning right, and the rudder to the left! That's no good either!!!

OR, you could just forget the whole smooth thing and just give it right rudder and that's it

-Michael

pittsdriver

My Feedback: (7)

I can't belive the misinformation on this thread. A co-ordinated turn to the right requires right rudder and right aileron even a steep up to 90 degree turn. A left turn is left rudder and left aileron. The ratio between rudder and aileron will vary greatly from plane to plane and angle of bank but it is an absolut truism. I have been flying RC for over 30 years mostly scale. I also have over 2000hrs full scale in over 85 types including Pitts, warbirds T-6, P-51, N3N Stearman, Spitfire, P-40 and have been the test pilot for 6 homebuilts. I'm not trying to brag here just giving my credentials. I know what I'm talking about, airplanes are airplanes big or small and they all fly the same. Don

aeropenguin

My Feedback: (1)

Don, thank you for the clarification - yes, it seemed quite weird that I'd need left rudder. It is great talking to such an important an experienced pilot, too. I wish that someday I could have all the experiecence as you.

Thank you!
-Michael

Arf-er

Hey, guys...

I would really love to use more rudder in flight, but in my part of the world, we fly mode 1 ... (elevator/rudder + throttle/ailerons) and that makes it a little more difficult for us mode-oners I guess.
Say if you want to 'crab' it in on a crosswind... holding rudder AND moderating the amount of elevator on the same (left) thumb...
I for one, haven't gotten that eye-thumb coordination yet! ;-)

pittsdriver

My Feedback: (7)

Arfer, I learned to fly RC using a modified mode 1. My instructer used throttle-aileron on the left stick and rudder-elevator on the right. I then changed to mode 2 a couple of years later. It still works the same though and you can co-ordinate rudder and aileron. Now the discusion above is for a level co-ordinated turn, when we talk about climbing and decending turns, slips and skids etc. the subject gets more and more complicated. The main thing about this whole discusion is that learning to use the rudder makes you a much better and smoother pilot. Don

JimTrainor

Coordinated turns aside...

Imagine an old plane like a Cub (no flaps, and long glide) having to make a landing on short field with obstructions (maybe trees) that must be cleared on final or base.

You'd see the pilot execute a high base leg (to clear the obstructions) then a slipping turn onto final, then some aggressive side slipping. Both to drop altitude without picking airspeed.

... a beautiful sight, and impossible to perform without rudder!

One pilot's description: http://www.maxho.com/cub.html

Maybe RCU should run an "internet ground school".


Since this is the warbird forum, substitue Cub for Piper L-4A "Grasshopper" http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/early_years/ey22.htm

pittsdriver

My Feedback: (7)

Jim, I agree. Nothing like a big round engine biplane in a big slip on final with the wires singing. Don

twinman

My Feedback: (2)

My two cents........The answer is ALWAYS!!!!!.
If you do not or cannot or will not, learn to use the rudder all the time, do not fly twins or multi-engined models.
I am crazy enough to only fly multi's. Lose and engine on a heavy twin such as a P-38 and the yaw and inverted flat spin will happen faster than you can believe..........Now is not the time to think about learning to use the rudder.
One engine out demands that the rudder be used and right now and correctly. It is not, as I have seen posted, a matter of dialing in trim. Trim changes as the airspeed changes and you cannot be fooling around with a trim tab during an engine out. It must be automatic and that is learned with constant use. If a twin or multi-engined monster is set up improperly, or has a problem of unequal thrust in the air, again the rudder use makes the difference between flying again and a pile of sticks.
I will get off my squeeky soapbox.