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adding flaps to an arf

Old 01-25-2006, 10:42 PM
  #51  
paladin
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

Bo, We have a number of guy’s at the clubs I fly at that have done similar mods. The problem is that you have a lot, a lot, more wing and much less flap so the affect of the flaps is no were near what it will be on the H9 P-51D. When I teach people how to fly flaps I like to have them fly my Kyosho me109 that I added scale size flaps to. Its underpowered with tones of flap so I let them tool around the sky at ½ throttle then I put the flaps down when they don’t expect it. The plane literally stops in the air (its low mass vs the large flaps is causing a massive deceleration that makes it look like its stopped) usually it also climbs also and a pilot that is ready for flaps will recognize that he needs to get the nose down. But the plane continues to climb, by then I’ve told him to throttle back (and they get this look on their faces like this bozo is nuts). After some struggling with the plane, I’ve had guys try to retrim, push massive amounts of down (which only increases the speed and thus the lift and it starts to climb again), try turning to bleed off the access lift. But eventually they give up and try the reduce the throttle when everything else does not work and the plane becomes controllable and very, very, slow.

Once on the ground we have the discussion about what happened. But the point is the me109 has low mass so all the new forces show on it very quickly and obviously. Now if I did the same thing with my 12# P-51D you could not tell the difference between dirty or clean. You have the other extreme, loads of wing and a little flap, so don’t expect the H9 P-51D to do what you expect from the Ultra stick all the time.

Now that I have some time lets talk about those first landings with flaps. We have spent the time to fly the plane with flaps but then go clean to land so that we can get used to the AOA the plane flys at dirty. We have also experienced how to climb and dive by varying throttle setting. Before taking off figure how many clicks of throttle it takes to increase the idle rpm 400-500 rpm and remember it (very important). The first times you land with the flaps add the extra RPM’s. Now I’m assuming that you will not actually touch the ground in the first few attempts because everyone uses the dive to the runway pull up at the bottom method.

On your first landing attempt you will do what you are used to regardless of what I say. Go to idle, dive to the runway and pull up at the bottom, hold the plane off the runway till the flaps slow it then touch down. In real life the first dive to the runway is going to be to shallow because your not used to the way the plane looks in a dive with flaps (the plane looks much steeper than the dive actually is). This is because of the AOA the dirty plane is flying at, when you put the flaps down the plane rotates about 8 degrees nose down so those first few dives to the runway just don’t look right. The extra throttle is to make sure you don’t stall the stab (if you stall the stab the nose will drop slightly. The natural tendency is to add E which completes the stall and re-kit the plane. Yes it is possible to stall the plane with full flaps in a dive and some throttle. The correct response is to add throttle and wait for the nose to come up on its own. This is easy for me to say, and do, but you have to learn this stuff so we carry the extra throttle for now. I think I’ve already covered how to handle an over shoot (if not yell). At some point here you will either land very fast or say I’ve got to set her down go clean and reduce the idle and land clean.

Factory retracts! I could land with them pretty reliably but some one learning to land with flaps NO WAY!!!!! They will teach you bad habits like pulling E just prior to touchdown. If you are learning to fly flaps you will land hard! Sometimes. Get a good pair of metal retracts with cold roller steel struts. Expect to put the landing gear mounts in a few times after flap landings and re-bend struts. Giant scale planes have the advantage of seaming slower and the disadvantage of mass when the landings are not perfect.

Once you realize there has to be a better way to land then point the nose down and pull up at the bottom arriving at the ground at 50mph+ you are ready for the next step. Leaving the idle throttle low (not adding the 400-500 rpm’s) when you pull out of your down wind turn pull the plane level and throttle back. It won’t take long and the plane will start to loose altitude while holding the AOA and E. If you added to much throttle the plane will start to climb, not enough and it will continue to drop accelerating exponentially if un corrected. The typical mode here is to add to much throttle and the landing should be aborted. Never stick with a bad setup if the prop is still turning! When you get the throttle correct the altitude loss will be controllable using throttle only without changing the AOA. At about ten ft from the runway add a click or two of throttle to slow the altitude loss (do not use E). Once a foot or two off the runway use the E to pull level the amount of E should be minimal (30% expo is were I start on E on new planes). Once level with the runway throttle back slowly and let her settle to the runway. Always wheel land until you have a good feel for the plane and what is going on. Lotts of opportunities for error for a new flap pilot! So if anything is not right go round!

Joe

PS here's some pic's of Bills H9 P-51D with flaps.
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Old 01-25-2006, 10:46 PM
  #52  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

Notice the tail high in all the flap pic's above.
Old 01-28-2006, 01:08 AM
  #53  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

Joe,

You're right about the ratio of flap area to wing area between my Hobbistar upgrade or my UltraStick, and a warbird. Still, I'm impressed with the effect dialing in full flaps has with either of my planes. Both slow WAY down and roll outs are less than half compared to landing w/o flaps deployed.

Good pictures of Bill's P-51 coming in tail-high due to flap deployment. My UltraStick does not assume that attitude, but the Hobbistar I just bashed does.

My next mod on the H9 P-51 before she flies is the addition of flaps. Is there another thread in here that shows the internals of the trailing edge on Bill's or anyone else's H9 'Stang? Your measuring and cutting techniques pictured in your earlier posts are similar to what I've envisioned doing to H9 wing, but I'd love to see the ribs/trailing edge construction specifically on the H9 before I cut it.

As with your project(s), I'm trying to minimize damage to, or replacement of, the existing covering.

Bo
Old 01-28-2006, 06:59 AM
  #54  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

This is a great post , keep it up . I plan on adding split flaps to my 73" GSP P40 .Cant imagine that plane without flaps
Old 01-28-2006, 10:43 PM
  #55  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

Bo,here's the pic's of bills H9 inerds.
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Old 01-28-2006, 10:55 PM
  #56  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

Some of these pic's show the hinge blocks and or end caps in place. Nitice that the stick the aileron hinges go intp extends one bay into where the flaps are going to go.
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Old 01-28-2006, 10:59 PM
  #57  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

The hanger 9 was better built, all the ribs were spaced evenly the ribs were made of thicker less brittle balsa. the sheeting was thicker and goes further up on the wing so the flaps can be made longer.

Joe
Old 01-29-2006, 09:20 AM
  #58  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

The cleaned up P51 version.
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Old 01-29-2006, 12:00 PM
  #59  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

Joe,

A VERY helpful photo sequence on building the H9 P-51 flaps, THANKS!

That's going to really help when I start that final phase of my P-51 mods (probably next week).

Bo
Old 02-02-2006, 08:55 PM
  #60  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

Bo, On My P-51D I actually tried something new but did not want to write about it till I was sure it worked, and I'll tell you about it in a minute. But first, If I said 90 degrees that is wrong! Get A three view that shows the flaps, the line you are talking about is supposed to be parallel to the fuse to be close to scale. If you make that corner 90 degrees this problem goes away.

Now if you want to make it scale the angle in question will be greater than 90 degrees. That means if the top skin will travel in a different ark as the bottom sheeting so if you cut them one above the other you will get binding. The way I avoided this was to cut the line parallel to the fuse at the same distance from the root rib. Your root rib is at the angle needed for dihedral so if you measure the same distance on top and bottom the dihedral of the root rib will insure that the line parallel to the fuse will be further up the wing. And yet they both converge at the TE. Well they will be with in a 1/16 so you want to make the lines (top and bottom) meet at the TE.

Prove it to your self put the lines down then measure the hinge line from the fuse end of the flap to the aileron end of the flap and the top hinge line will be about 1/8 shorter.


Joe
Old 02-03-2006, 12:28 PM
  #61  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

Gotcha!

While the outer end of the flap we're cutting out of the wing already has a finished end next to the aileron (that is perpendicular to the WING surface), the inner end we are cutting at the wing root (and near the cooler) is parallel to the fuselage side (and perpendicular to the horizon) which puts that cut at an angle to the wing's perpendicular line equal to the wing's dihedral. [Ouch, tough to do with words only, isn't it?]

So, if the resulting cut out flap is laid flat on a surface, the inboard cut end is actually at a non-vertical bevel, and the top leading edge of the flap is shorter than the bottom leading edge.

Question:

Are bottom edge hinges better than a center-line hinge placement combined with a 45 degree bevel on the lower half of the flap's leading edge? The former gives you a clean top and bottom surface when flaps are up (probably best), but a big gap on the top surface when deployed. The latter gives you a smaller gap on the bottom surface and a clean top surface when retracted, and a smaller gap on the top surface and a clean bottom surface when deployed. I've seen both and both seem to work.

Bo

Old 02-03-2006, 08:17 PM
  #62  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

The problem is the hinge has to be rigid. A bendable hinge will break down the system. First mode of failure is hinge flex. Flaps by their nature will experience low order vibration and a ton of side load on the hinge. It first breaks down the hinge then once the hinge is bending the wood it is mounted in soon follows. So EZ hinges are out, in fact I will not use flat hinges for this reason. Opting for home made hinges on my more scale subjects. Second mode of failure is after test flying I want to add more flap and can’t because the bevel is all used up. Or worse don’t check and stall a servo and wear a battery pack down in one flight.

Darn tooting that concept is hard to get across with out actually making the cuts myself! I tried to show the offset in a number of the photos, if you go back and look at the you’ll wonder how you missed it.

Got to go, kiddy shuffle calls.

Joe
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Old 02-10-2006, 08:25 PM
  #63  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

Joe,

Getting close to done w/ the H9 P-51 60 flaps "BARF." Will post some pictures soon, but it looks alot like the pictures of "Bill's" P-51 you posted.

Again, your posts and pictures helped greatly in understanding the inner constructions of the H9 wing, best places to cut and why, and minimizing the recovering/fix-covering effort after the surgery! And the tricky inside edge bevel on the flaps works great: no clearance issues anywhere on the flap's 45 degree deflection.

BTW, when Bill first flew his flap-converted H9 'Stang, did he end up dialing in an proportional mix from the flaps to the elevator? Before I take mine out on it's maiden, I may as well set mine initially, if necessary, to whatever has worked from someone else's "same plane, same mod" experience.

Bo

Old 02-11-2006, 08:51 PM
  #64  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

Bo, adding the E with the flaps was because he had herd so much about it. It did not take long to realize it was not the way. You just remember if the nose does not come down throttle back!!!!!!!!!! You should be able to find a throttle setting it will fly level at while dirty. The hard part is getting a newby to fly his war bird that slow, and that is why people add the E. I take it one step further and reduce the T so that I have to hold the same E as I would with a sport plane.

You will have mistakes! I just hope non cost you the plane.

Maybe Bill will join us and let you know how much E he adds. I know he’s out there.

Joe
Old 03-11-2006, 10:38 AM
  #65  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

Cut some flaps in. flys great best of all it slows down no snaps or stalls so far. 6 flights with flaps cut in. This Hanger 9 has about 200 + flights on it. Was simi retired setting around with no engine but I had a saito 120 setting around Read your thread and got started I will upload some photos
Old 03-11-2006, 10:49 AM
  #66  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

ORIGINAL: Ufly

Cut some flaps in. flys great best of all it slows down no snaps or stalls so far. 6 flights with flaps cut in. This Hanger 9 has about 200 + flights on it. Was semi retired setting around with no engine but I had a saito 120 setting around Read your thread and got started I will upload some photos
this plane is at 10 1/2 pounds I have flaps programed into my slider futaba 9c left hand side from 0 to 45 degree's have elevator mixed at about 5 mm down plane nose drops when deployed. "I flew it in" from a steep decent 3 flight and dragged it up 3 flights prefer the steep decent, start flare about foot from touchdown. Looks like I might have to recover it looking at Rip n Flys bird "Maybe not" mine has been recovered 3 times now LOL and doesnt look like a hanger 9
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Old 03-11-2006, 11:50 AM
  #67  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

Just realized I never posted the pictures of my H9 Mustang flaps upgrade here.

Not a trivial project, but not too bad, either.

Unfortunately, bad weather for a month (windy, cold) in the Colorado front range has continued to delay the maiden. Someday soon, hopefully...

Bo
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Old 03-11-2006, 12:39 PM
  #68  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

good to see it finished.... it looks pretty good...... wish you all the best for your maiden
Old 03-12-2006, 10:15 PM
  #69  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

I'm glad to here you guy's are having so much success!

Joe
Old 03-25-2006, 11:25 AM
  #70  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

I added flaps to my latest paladin-inspired repair job. This is World Models .46-size Mustang recovered in chrome Monokote.

Juice
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Old 03-26-2006, 09:51 PM
  #71  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

Juice, Looks good!

Why did you hinge at the top of the wing?

Joe
Old 03-26-2006, 09:59 PM
  #72  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

Ok , now you have add split flaps , draw up the plans and send them to me , preferably on a P40 or Seafury , lol , i need to do both of those planes ,
Old 03-27-2006, 10:29 AM
  #73  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

Joe, I have a KMP hurri that i have been flying all winter and just got a y harness servo reverser to get my flaps tunned together because my radio would only trim one servo when I had them mixed with 2 channels.

I have been flying for 20 years but have never used flaps. I new there would be a learning curve and I am wondering if split flaps react differently. I am guessing more drag and less lift. Tried a landing last week and the throttle effected my decent rate but adding T didn't give me alot of lift. I was not pretty but I got it down. Any tips on split flaps?

Thanks, Ed
Old 03-27-2006, 10:25 PM
  #74  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

Ed, It is common for acceleration with flaps fully deployed to take some time. Trying to hold the plane off the runway with E is the wrong thing todo. When I decide an overshoot is in order about 50% will actually touch down on the runway track for some time then lift off without E coxing. The point being with all that drag it takes some time to accelerate.

Split flaps are my favorite because they create more lift and have a lot more drag that means slower approaches and faster deceleration when I go to idle. I have the same hurri as you but I’ve been spending most of my time chasing down a fuel draw problem. In your case pay attention to the change in AOA when you go dirty. The plane will rotate about 8 degrees nose down if you force it to what you are used to as level flight it increases the drag even more. In that AOA it will increase the acceleration time.

Get it high and practice then land clean till you feel you are ready, I’ve got to go.

Joe
Old 03-28-2006, 05:07 AM
  #75  
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Default RE: adding flaps to an arf

I love split flaps and have found the following . Practice high altitudes , moderate speed , you will see that with proper elevator trim you will have very little ballooning and nice slow speed .
As you get use to the effect , you can slow your plane down with the gradual increase of the flaps for a nice controlled decent . Dont be fooled by the excellant ability to slow down , its still a warbird and you need good power to land but split flaps will really help maintian great control at low speeds .
My biggest issue while learning with splits was useing too much speed so the plane would balloon upward and need down trim , careful throttle managemnet takes care of this . I am so convinced with split flaps that i usually add them to my ARF P40 if they dont have them .
I will be building my 73" CMP with split flaps

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