t_burley

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Hopefully someone here might be able to give me more info on the attached P47 image? I found this last night in book I picked up at Barnes & Noble - "The Hamlin Concise Guide to American Aircraft of WWII"

It is a P47 that was captured by the German's and re-painted with Swastica for apparantly a photo recon ship? I wanted to do something differnt with my Taylor P47, and so here it is.........

the text below states............"Republic P-47D Thunderbolt, lately of the 358th Fighter Squadron, USAAF, used by the Sonderkommando (special detachment) of the Aufklarundsstaffel (reconnaisssance squadron) 103 of the Luftwaffe, based at Orly (France) in spring of 1944." if you cant read it.

Thanks,
Todd

Vince

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A member of our club just bought a Yellow Aircraft P47 razorback, and is doing it in this scheme.

Vince

t_burley

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Vince,

thanks, if he has any more information about this plane, let me know.

Todd

Chad Veich

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Surf around here and see what you find: http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/capture.htm

t_burley

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Chad,

I'm not worthy
you guys are great! thanks for the help so far.

Todd

warbirdz1

Burl.....P-47 in German colors? I hope your kidding.....With Veterans Day just passing .....I guess I'm a Die+hard American....Can't even bring myself to build a German or Japanese airplane.....I know its only a hobby and the choices are endless......Maybe you could do "Gabby Gabreski's" paint scheme instead...as he passed away this past January.....Bill....

Mustang51

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To each their own...
I finished my FW 190 in Winter White camo.
One reason was, it had no Allied "kills" on the rudder.
Just can't seem to bring myself to model those.
Got no problem putt'n Axis "kills" on my Allied aircraft though.(hehehe).

-Mustang51

k_sonn

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Todd:

You found a different scheme. Cool!!

I have a friend who feels like warbirdz1. He can not bring himself to build an German or Japanese warbird because they are "un-American" but he drives a Saab and a Land Rover which are both "un-American." Go figure. Oh well, I just traded him a Midwest AT-6 kit for a Bert Baker Zero kit because he could not bring himself to build the zero.

t_burley

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unfortunately I knew this was going to stir a few emotions if you will. I am just as American as the next guy (with of course the exception that my family is from Germany , 100 + years ago). My father was a B25 pilot, my oldest brother spent 3 tours in Vietnam, and my other brother retired 6 years ago with 20 years active military in the Air Force..............so I respect OUR freedom that has been givin to us. Aside from that, I'm not here to flame, we are all friends and hobbiests. This is a part of our History, that is all. I am not wanting to glorify the Germans, I wanted something different than normal. Gabreski would be a great choice, a great man, but has already been done. This plane is a Photo Recon plan, no kills, thats not whats is about. How is it any different for us here to do our American birds with German or Japanese kills? How do the German/Japanese hobbiests feel about that? The war happened, nothing we can do about it. Sorry about the novel, its just a PLANE, nothing more, its unique, different, and thats what is going to be done. The nice thing to me here is that I have the backing if you will from some of the WWII vets I fly with, I'm not affending them?

thanks for listening, no harm or disloyalty ment.

Todd

t_burley

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sorry I forgot, thanks Kirk!
it is definatly different.

Todd

P-51B

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Burl,

I'm more patriotic than most, and I wouldn't worry about this stuff, I think the war ended about 57 years ago. Most of us are in the hobby because of a love of aircraft.

I think I have information on this aircraft at home. I will check this evening.

Mustang51

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** How is it any different for us here to do our American birds with German or Japanese kills? How do the German/Japanese hobbyists feel about that? **

In my opinion... it's different because I'm American, and personally, I have a hard time looking at a German\Jap score board of an Allied Kill. German and Japanese hobbyists may or may not have a problem with putting their respective "kills" on their models. Quite frankly. I don't care how they feel, could'nt give a (*&^.
Point here is... Everyone has a right to choose the subject they want to model. If you want to model a captured American aircraft, then have at it. Good luck, and I hope you have fun doing it. You're right, some schemes have been done to death (Gabreskis Jug, Kepford, and Boyingtons Corsair, etc.). It will be nice to see something different. I thought about doing the very same scheme you're thinking about, would hope you keep us posted as you go, and hope to see some pics. of the finished jug.

-Mustang51

warbirdz1

Folks...I wasn't trying to "Stir up the Pot"...We have many "warbirds" from Allied and Axis powers in our club and for that matter downhere in So. fla.........from many countries....Airplanes in their own countries paint schemes are just as fun to watch as the American Warbirds.....I just would rather see our planes in their respective paint schemes...just as the others .......I have met many,many WWII Vets and I'm most sensitive to the fliers....On a personal note one reason I fly WWIIwarbirds is to remind myself and others why I have a good job, 2-car garage to build my planes and the Freedoms I possess today.....And show my gratitude for those both living and dead.....I meant no harm....this hobby is too much fun for that....I just "Prefer" to see a P-47 or any American Aircraft in American or something other than "axis" paint schemes.....nothing personal...If you want a P-47 in a German paint scheme ...so be it....just seems odd......Bill

t_burley

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Bill, yes you are right it is an odd paint scheme , but that is what I was looking for. Unfortunatly it is of an American plane painted in German scheme
I guess I'll do a ME109 next or maybe a A6M Zero with Stars & Bars based on one of their captured planes . All kidding aside I do not want to affend, nor stir the pot any more. Its just different, thats all. I respect the honor of those that gave their lives for OUR freedom. I will honor that someday with and American plane of some great pilot than.

Todd

MEMPHISBELLE

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I thought of doing this paint scheme on my yellow, but changed my mind. I do know some of the story behind this paint job. I will try to post it tomarrow . I do know the pilot was confused as to where he was at and landed on a german occupied air strip.
WES

P-51B

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O.K Burl,

Here's what I have for you.

You can find this aircraft in "Strangers in a Strange Land" by Squadron/Signal publications, ISBN 0-89747-198-9. In fact it is featured in three different schemes on the back cover. The basic story starts on page 22

The aircraft was flown by Second Lt. William E. Roach, of the 355th fighter group, based out of Steeple Morden. On 7 November 1943 he participated in his third mission. This was a B-17 escort mission to Wesel and Duren. Essentially, the group was supposed to be relieved by the 353rd at Marche. However the 353rd was delayed due to headwinds, and was not in the area. Col. Cummings, elected to keep the 355th with the bombers, rather than leave them on their own. On returning to England, the group began to run out of fuel, and began going down. Lt. Jack Woertz was the only one to make it back to England. He attempted an emergency landing at Hastings, but his engine died just short of the runway. He was able to walk away from the crash, only to be killed in a crash a few weeks later.

Lt. Roach was the capper to the lost planes. He believed he was over England (don't ask me, I have no idea!). Having witnessed his group leader, and others, go down, he elected to perform and emergency landing (again, in what he thought was England). He spotted a field and went in. After touchdown, a "follow me" vehicle escorted him to a parking area. He proceeded to shutdown the engine, and get out of the plane. This is when he noticed the unusual uniforms (german) and drawn guns. He had landed in Caen, France and given the Germans an intact and undamaged fighter (doh!)

Lt. Roach was taken POW, spending the rest of the war at Stalag Luft I in Barth. (Capt. Kossack, who had led yellow flight on Nov 7,was there also). The aircraft went to Rechlin for testing. In 1944 it appeared in a propaganda film in U.S. markings.

The original lettering was YFU and was retaind by the germans. Its original tail number was 222490, which was painted over. The cowl ring was originally a thinner white band. The germans painted it red when they put the german markins on it. When it was repainted in American markings for the propaganda film, the original white band was painted back on, so there was a thin white band followed by a red band. The colors appear to be the later OD (green OD as opposed to the earlier brownish OD) with grey underside. On the port side, towards the front of the cockpit, it was named AGNES in yellow, and below that was the pilots name and crew chiefs name. These markings appear to have been left by the germans through all paintings, as was the nose art.

The particular colors in your drawing, don't correspond to any of the plates I can find, but that doesn't mean it is not one of the variants the germans had on it. It is consistent with several other aircraft color schemes used at Rechlin.

There is an overview, there is better detail in the book.

Hope this helps.

t_burley

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thanks for the help so far guys!

warbirdz1

Burl....I recall several years ago a couple of people complaining to the AMA and IMAA about German airplanes and the Swasticas and IronCrosses...they wanted a rule passed basically barring anyone from using them on RC models.....as you might think..caused quite a stir.....I'm firmly against anything that alters historical facts...whether it be verbal or pictoral......we must report history as it truly happened to the best that we can.....even today with new technology we have been able to "get it right" because of it.....and I think thats just another reason this hobby is so intriguing....we build these replicas and go digging for all sorts of pictures and information.....to complete the story....I was aware the Germans had several American fighters captured but did not know one of them was a P-47......so historically your right on the money....by the way the name of our flying club....."The Lucky *******s"...why is that?.......In rememberance of the B-17 crews in early days of War that made 25 missions.....thats what they were called....theres a Book and certificates and I've met several of them...and IMAA sanctioned.....historical facts are just that...I learned something today.....Bill...........P51B-nice job on P-47 data....

t_burley

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Bill,

"The Lucky *******s" I like it!
I learned something today as well. Patriotism is alive and well in the United States! I understand the points/concerns if you will, I never again wanted to glorify the German's, even though I have German in my blood. Its not really the German thing, It's what Hitler was standing for I feel is the problem. The Swastika thing I understand can be hard for some to deal with. I am 40, I have short hair (sometimes bald) by my choice, because I like it that way. Am a white male, and design house for a living. I am not a skin head, although the look is there! , but I get judged. I love to read, anything on WWII history. I was frowned upon one day at Barnes & Noble when I was looking at book on Nazi Germany. I did not buy it, mearly looked at it, picked it up. An older gentleman did not like it, my looks and the book. I later found out he was Jewish and had been in a concentration camp. I offended him, by doing nothing but only looking at the book, and having very short hair. After talking with him, I offered my feelings for what he had been through, and told him I meant no harm of course. He understood, it was just something he had to live with, his fears. I guess the whole thing here, is I enjoy the hell out of this site, and the great information that comes from it. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and thats great. I never wanted to offend anyone with this, just again something different. After reading the story above, I have found and ordered the book. It is an amusing story, that did not result in the pilot losing his life, only having to be a POW. So that makes me feel better as far as that goes. Again thanks to all so far. I never thought I would have to really reach down so far to do an aiplane that is a part of our history, but I felt is was unique.

Todd

thunderbolt-RCU

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Over zelous nationalism is a dangerous thing. Let's don't get too carried away. I too have searched for different paint schemes. This is a great one. Frank Tiano flew a garish orange FW-190 at the Scale Masters in the early eighties that had American markings on it. How about a Zero in captured American markings. I built 3 spitfires in American Eagle Squdron markings. The pilots of the American Eagle Squdrons ended the war as heros, but when they volunteered to fight for England, they should have lost their American citizanship because they were fighting for a foreign country unauthorised by congress.
By the way, in many cities in America today, there are more German and Japanese cars sold than American cars. There are Japanese assembly plants in America, but they are run at a loss so there is no income tax to the US. The income tax is paid in Japan.
This is a wonderful hobby where we learn craftsmanship, electrical & radio theory, and aeronautics. IN the scale portion of the hobby, we also study history. Much of the enjoyment in scale modeling comes from the research we do prior to building a model. I think you should build it because that plane has such a unique story to tell.
Brian

t_burley

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"This is a wonderful hobby where we learn craftsmanship, electrical & radio theory, and aeronautics. IN the scale portion of the hobby, we also study history. Much of the enjoyment in scale modeling comes from the research we do prior to building a model. I think you should build it because that plane has such a unique story to tell.
Brian"


well said Brian. thanks

Todd

Mustang51

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*Over zelous nationalism is a dangerous thing. Let's don't get too carried away.*

Excuse me???? Over zealous Nationalism??? Lets don't get too carried away???
Are you out of your "F"ing Mind???
Just because someone voices an opinion about a subject matter sensitive to them, does NOT mean that they are some type of Idiot\alarmist or anything else for that matter as your post seems to imply.

As for your "theory" about foreign car company factories in the U.S.?
These factories are Managed and run by, Americans. Americans build these cars. The only thing foreign about them, is their name, and the design of the vehicles. News flash... American designers also have their hands in on that as well.

Over Zealous Nationalism ,MY ASS!

-Mustang51