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Painting Issue - Need Advice!

Old 07-01-2006, 03:37 AM
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Default Painting Issue - Need Advice!

I've been taggin along on Peter Oz's P-47 build thread for ages, but I'm having a problem today that I'd like a few more sets of eyes on as well as some feedback and advice. I painted Klasskote over Duplicolor High Build Primer over glass laid down with Deft laquer and Minwax Polycrylic Water based poly. I got a nasty result the first time it saw sun. I'd be interested in your thoughts on where I went wrong. Apologies for duping the posts I made on Peter's thread.

We were having some problems with the adhesive backing from the paint mask not coming off cleanly, so I threw the fuselage in the car and took it down to the graphics shop to get some advice. When I got home, I noticed what I thought was some bubbling in the paint. Not bad, but noticeable. The only root cause I could think of was that 10 minutes or so in the sun affected it. So I ran a little test by putting both the wing and the fuselage in the sun. First picture is the wing at T=0. Second picture is wing at T = 20 min. Final pic is fuselage at T=30 minutes. The good news is that after an hour and a half in the sun, it hasn't gotten any worse that that. The bad news is that I still think the paint job is a total loss. I can't blame it on KlassKote as there is this little line in their data sheet that I conveniently overlooked. IT IS NOT RECOMMENDED TO USE KLASS KOTE Epoxy Primers OVER OLD PAINT OR UNCATALYZED PRIMERS! For the record, I used Duplicolor high build.

I sanded off the paint and lifted the big bubbles with a # 11 blade. It looks like whatever cooked off and caused the bubbles came from within the poly. In the worst cases, it lifted bubbles in the glass. In other cases, it just escaped through pinholes and bubbled the paint. Over dinner, "she who must be obeyed" made the great point that it's much better to discover the problem now by accident than on the first day at the field after doing the remaining stenciling, checkers, and real weathering. It's awesome to find good-looking, smart, and concerned about my airplanes in the same woman. I am truly fortunate.

As far as my process on the glassing goes, it was all done over the winter here in the Northwest. I sealed the balsa with Deft sanding sealer. I applied the glass cloth with Deft laquer based poly (2 coats) and finished with Minwax polycrylic. The only thing I can think of is that some moisture or gases got trapped and then cooked off on one of our first hot days here.

My plan of record is to leave the whole damn kit in the sun tommorrow and see what else cooks off and then come back and redress the mess. I'll chuck the flippin cowl out in the yard as well just to confirm the theory that the poly is the source of the problem. If you have better ideas, please chime in, else "hello bain du soleil".

Happy 4th and cheers to all those who made it so.

Tom



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Old 07-01-2006, 08:54 AM
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tailskid
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Default RE: Painting Issue - Need Advice!

Man that is one BUMMER situation.....sorry it happened!

Jerry
Old 07-01-2006, 09:08 AM
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Default RE: Painting Issue - Need Advice!

tOM That is not good news.
I have the same problem with my spitfire. I believe it is the Laqure on the bottom that is causing the problem. I did the same thing is put a coat of lacqure on first then the Mimwax poly water base pver it, then primered it with automotive lacqure primer I left it in the sun just a little while and got blisters all over. This is the first time I ever used the lacqure to seal the wood. I have painted at least 6 warbirds useing the poly u waterbase and auto primer and never had a problem. The reason I used the lacqure base coat was I didn't build the plane and I didn't know how thin the wood was in some places. I know polyu on thin balsa will warp.
I am putting on the pannel lines and rivets now. Before I go any further I think I will give it a sun test like you did.
You said you painted yours during the winter so it has had time to cure. I will let you know what the sun test does. Rich
Old 07-01-2006, 01:09 PM
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Default RE: Painting Issue - Need Advice!

Well, it's another nice hot (for Seattle) day here, so she's out in the sun where she will remain for the next several hours. My hope is that whatever wants to cook off will do so and then I can touch up the hickeys and reapply the base colors. I'll keep you posted.

Tom
Old 07-01-2006, 03:36 PM
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bigtim
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Default RE: Painting Issue - Need Advice!

hey gator I dont know that much about glass coat paint. but I glassed my spit the same way ,deft,WB poly method and after using auto primer and a few different sprays havn't had any lifting FYI I am a trim carpenter and painter for work ,and you never want to put a harder product over a soft one the hard finish will lift more often than not, also sometimes if the surface is not dust free the dust can cause lifting. my instincs tell me stay with like minded products if you use WB stay with latex or at least non catalized products as they do generate heat when curing. as far as deft goes I use the stuff all the time, its hard to get the stuff to react when you coat over it but when you paint it on a already painted surface it works like stripper and will bubble the paint off so like Baldeagle did he used a laquer primer over a WB product which has waxes in the product wax is used to give sheen thats why on the label it says recoat in a hour but if it drys longer let dry and sand the surface before applying another coat you need to "break" the sheen for the next coat to stick I know this doesn't help solve your problem but might help explain why it hapened and some rules for application and always pre test a surface for compatability if you are not sure.
Old 07-01-2006, 04:12 PM
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Default RE: Painting Issue - Need Advice!

Hey Tim,

Thanks for the feedback. After a few more tests today, I've ruled a couple of root causes out. The problem isn't between the KlassKote and the Duplicolor auto primer. I cooked the heck out of the cowl and it still looks beautiful. The blistering is occurring consistently over the airframe, so the problem isn't related to one of the spot fillers or balsarite. The bubbling is coming from beneath the glass cloth. The only thing down there is the Deft sanding sealer and the Deft laquer. My best guess at what happened is that I recoated with the WB poly too soon after applying the Deft and didn't allow the laquer solvent adequate time to cure, thus trapping some of it in and around and under the glass. Your advice about not mixing WB and laquer based product is probably spot-on. I may have outsmarted myself to try to reduce the risk of balsa warp on the initial coats. My reason for thinking this is that the bubbling seems to do its thing up to a point and then stop causing me to beleive that whatever is trying to get out has fully cooked off. In areas like the yellow base color on the tail, it hasn't bubbled at all, but those areas are noticeably cooler to the touch than the grey or OD surfaces. I'll probably hit the yellow with a heat gun to bring it up. My hope is that all of these gases will cook off and then I can resand, touch up holes with spot glazing and re-apply color. Seem reasonable, or am I kidding myself?

Tom
Old 07-01-2006, 04:39 PM
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Default RE: Painting Issue - Need Advice!

Tom,
Sorry to hear of your problems. This thread is very relevent for me. I am constantly getting asked if WarbirdColors can be applied over ______(fill in the blank). I have always stated that since WarbirdColors is water based it will not have a reaction with the substrate, but it never occured to me that the substrate could have an issue with what IT IS APPLIED OVER. too many layers here....I will have to revise my answers based on what exactly is being covered. Thus far WarbirdColors has had no issues with the underlying primer(s) etc., but I'll have to be more specific in the future. MAKE SURE THE UNDERLYING SURFACE IS STABLE BEFORE APPLYING......Thanks for sharing your issue and apparent resolution....

Chuck
Old 07-01-2006, 07:51 PM
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Default RE: Painting Issue - Need Advice!

That's a good point. I wouldn't have ever expected this problem. I guess if there is good news, it's that at its worst, it looks about the same as monokote after a day of flying in Texas. [8D]

Tom
Old 07-01-2006, 11:03 PM
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Default RE: Painting Issue - Need Advice!

I used to use perfect paint when they were around, now I use KlassCoat for everything. Klasscoat primer fills and sands beautifully, no need to screw around with the other stuff anymore. I fill the weave in my glass cloth with a small 3 inch roller and mix Klasscoat primer in a paper plate. Make sure Klasscoat is underneath everything if you want to use another brands and types of paint. Once Klasscoat is cured, nothing touches it! Not even acetone! This makes is easy to apply colors, lettering, etc., with other kinds of paint. If they don't come out right, simply wipe it off with an acetone, lacquer thinner, etc, the Klasscoat base coat is untouched! Amazing stuff!
Old 07-02-2006, 02:32 AM
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Default RE: Painting Issue - Need Advice!

You're dead on about KlassKote as a finish layer. I don't know how we would have gotten the bad paint mask off without acetone. The Klasskote didn't mind it a bit. My mistake came much earlier in the process. Chris and I have been working on it a bit tonight and are pretty much reconciled to the fact that it's a first warbird, and it's good not to love it. The good news is that we could hit it with a top coat and letter and stencil it and would still be in the top 3rd of things that show up on Saturday morning.

Cheers and thanks again to all.

Tom
Old 07-02-2006, 10:45 AM
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Default RE: Painting Issue - Need Advice!

Tom Good news so far, I set the wing in the sun for about an hour and no blistering anywhere. I think what helped mine is the automotive primer I put on over the laquer base is real light . Most of it is sanded off , whitch in turn let the base lacquer cure out even though it felt dry when I sanded it. I plan on using a silver coat after all detail is done . then my regular colors wich will be Latex. Rich good luck with yours.
Old 07-02-2006, 12:25 PM
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Default RE: Painting Issue - Need Advice!

That's excellent Rich! I've heard that misery loves company, but I wouldn't wish this problem on anyone.

Good luck!

Tom
Old 07-02-2006, 09:46 PM
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Default RE: Painting Issue - Need Advice!

Tom
What a punch in the gut that must have been when you first saw the blisters. Well from your misshap we all shall learn. As I have yet to fibreglass or paint my first I still don't understand why so many varying coats of different materials are needed. And why go from laquer to water based products?
Alas I have much to learn.
Paul
Old 07-02-2006, 10:13 PM
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Default RE: Painting Issue - Need Advice!

hey there reading your answer leads me to believe you hit it spot on. the gasses can get trapped if the material used has not fully dried and cured, after sealing I waited at least a week before glassing not on purpose but because I am a slow builder when I sealed the balsa I used 2 coats of deft satin, my paint store was out of SS but the satin worked well to seal the wood, then I glassed with 3 coats of varathane diamond WB poly. you might have put a bit to much of the brushing lacquer on, after sanding sealer and finish coats thats allot of material. after sealing the balsa I sanded my plane quite a bit for smoothness before the glassing .lessons learned for us all . as a side note I did rush my finish a bit and when I sprayed flat lustre coat over a regular spray paint I got some wrinkling and had to do some repainting but when I let the finish colors cure there was no problems I was looking at the finish line and thought I would do a little sprint LOL. the moral of the story don't rush your finish painting as much as you want to get your model done.now I give a few days before clear coats if lustre coat is used.
Old 07-03-2006, 01:58 AM
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Default RE: Painting Issue - Need Advice!


ORIGINAL: pand9
As I have yet to fibreglass or paint my first I still don't understand why so many varying coats of different materials are needed. And why go from laquer to water based products?
My rationale is that the laquer on the initial coats would be less likely to warp the balsa sheeting. Not sure I would go there again.

Tom
Old 07-03-2006, 03:22 AM
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Default RE: Painting Issue - Need Advice!

deft is a brushing lacquer, not the spray type, the water in WB poly "can"not always warp thin balsa sheeting .I have read that some people have used the deft alone for glassing . the smell of deft will give the head ache of a lifetime if you don't have ventilation and/or a respirator. for sanding sealer it was fine for me it raises the grain and sands smooth with 220grit paper. WB poly is a low odor water clean up and worked well, and I knew the product well ,and I did not want to learn how to use epoxy, and found that it was expensive .for my model I used 1/2 qt deft and qt of WB poly the deft and poly was 25$ ,10$ for the glass not to hard on the wallet. I have to add I have not seen any of the bubbling that gator has. I by no means thought this idea out I learned this glassing method from RCWARBIRDS.COM SBD Dauntless thread the builder used this method and I liked his results.if you read the thread he did weight comparisons and product compatability tests . for me at least less toxic is where I want to head for finishes even the lustre coat is nasty stuff.and for my next build after glassing I am finishing with latex colors and clear WB poly.
Old 07-03-2006, 03:44 AM
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Default RE: Painting Issue - Need Advice!

I'm with Tim. I'm firing the Deft laquer. I put up with the horrific fumes because I thought it was getting me a more stable base platform, but it turns out that the headache goes on and on. I'm thinking seriously about using nothing but West Systems resin and Klasskote from here on out.

Tom
Old 07-04-2006, 02:39 AM
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Probably about time to close this thread down. At this point, it is what it is and there's no happy ending. But the good news is that it's just a jug, so it doesn't really need to be pretty. If you want the rest of the story, pick up Peter Oz's build thread right about here.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=4460868

I'm just providing comic relief while he's off working on other projects.

Happy 4th all!

Tom

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