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New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

Old 06-21-2008, 05:57 AM
  #1576  
M64
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

very smart
Old 06-21-2008, 10:53 AM
  #1577  
MarvinE255
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

To help take off and tracking on my Frankie I have the tail wheel on a separate servo which when switched off keeps the tail wheel straight. I then mixed in some right rudder with the throttle so once the plane is on the mains it requires almost no correction for a straight take off. This can also be placed on a switch but does not really seam a problem when flying. My plane also changes attitude with full flaps and gear down needing aileron correction to fly straight. I mixed in some aileron correction with full flaps so now it it continues to fly straight with full flaps and gear down making landing easier.
Old 06-21-2008, 11:05 AM
  #1578  
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build


ORIGINAL: tsyssa

I know exactly what you are talking about...I saw that weld and I might re weld mine. (Im used to doing micro TIG work...so its not really difficult.)

Dont know why they do not have more weld going around....actually I do know why...time and cost...but the small amount of time spent would make it much better.
Glad to hear someone else is having problems with the stock crap retracts. I've had two of the welds come off. Both times on take-off. The first resulted in damage to my expensive spinner. The second, resulted in a nose-over. Both because the wheel had no support to keep it in alignment when the weld broke.

Now, I've received some 704's from Springair, but they will no where near fit in there without major modification. The strut he sent was too short, and the retract itself looks much smaller than the stock. The funny thing is, I personally talked to them on the phone and explained what plane I had.

However, upon closer look, the 404's look like they might be a closer fit. Springair doesn't provide dimensions for their 700 series retracts.

Has anybody tried spring air retracts on the NEW version of this P51D?

Yes, I know there is a lengthy discussion on retracts from the OLD thread, but it doesn't really apply to the NEW version plane because the mount is totally different.
Old 06-21-2008, 02:09 PM
  #1579  
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build


ORIGINAL: MarvinE255

To help take off and tracking on my Frankie I have the tail wheel on a separate servo which when switched off keeps the tail wheel straight. I then mixed in some right rudder with the throttle so once the plane is on the mains it requires almost no correction for a straight take off. This can also be placed on a switch but does not really seam a problem when flying. My plane also changes attitude with full flaps and gear down needing aileron correction to fly straight. I mixed in some aileron correction with full flaps so now it it continues to fly straight with full flaps and gear down making landing easier.
Hey Doc,

Sounds like if you have to correct with aileron when you drop flaps then their deflections probably don't match up.

Ideally, you should use a separate channel on your Tx/Rx that you could attach the second flap servo to, and slave to the primary flap channel. Then, go thru the full flap range and alter the curve of the slave channel flap to precisely track the deflection of the primary flap thru it's range of motion.

I could never get Frankie's flap deflection to match until I did this, then, once done, she stopped hanging a right turn every time I dropped 'em!

All of this is, of course, is different from a pitch change due to flap deployment, which on my Frankie, needs about 3% negative elevator to compensate.

Rip
Old 06-21-2008, 07:26 PM
  #1580  
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

I think you are exactly correct the flaps don't align and rotate exactly. I just took the easy way out. Thanks
Old 06-22-2008, 12:37 AM
  #1581  
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

Some pics from today. 3 H9 1.50 P-51's present. Mine, Rips, and another club flyer's "Old Crow"

Mine was the first to take flight. I didnt use the gyro though. It wasnt responding properly so need to make some adjustments and didnt want to do a "field fix" sicne it would require taking the canopy off, yada yada yada....

Anyhow.....mine got up and seemed ok, but the rpm',s based off sound of the motor, didnt seem very high. It also appeared that the rpm's were slowly decreasing as the flight went on and a few occasions it felt like i was losing altitude. So, the motor will need to be looked at again and some tuning done yet again.
Now.....decided I should land since the RPM's seemed to be lagging. Hit the gear switch and only ONE gear came down. Uh oh!

Tried to cycle them again. Same result. So..had one gear down and prospect for landing on one main and a tail wheel didnt really look promising. I might have actually tried it, but, those there at the field suggested retracting the one gear and belly land it in the tall grassy weeds on other side of runway. Set up for approach and dropped half flaps. Circled around to bleed speed and then dropped full flaps and let it come down to about 10 feet off the deck. Then I killed the motor and let it glide till it was about 3 feet up. Hit the elevator a little to bleed remaining speed off and it briefly stalled the left wing(with a quick recovery) plopping the plane pretty much dead on its is belly. I did hear a nasty thwack sound so I assume some damage occured.

Walked over to the plane, examined it and then picked it up and didnt seee any damage off hand. YAY! I was braced for the worst actually......and had some significant damage really occured, it probably would have soured me on the plane entirely.

So, only thing now is to figure out why the one gear failed to extend. Oh and I do have to reattached the threaded portion of the Keleo exhaust back into the cylinder head port as that came out....but...the weld on the brace of the keleo muffler did NOT break. Hows that for sturdy

The "Old Crow" is electric powered by an elfite power 160 on 12s 5000mah spinning an 18x12. Needless to say, it outperformed both Rips and mine. In fact, he has it set to limit the throttle to only 75% too. It was doing absolute vertical climbs while also doing aileron rolls straight up.
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:58 AM
  #1582  
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

Hey Kahloq,
I think chances are, the rpm drop you were getting was because the keleo came loose during flight and not just knocked off during the belly landing. I had a similar experience on my Frankie. When I was reading your explanation about the rpms dropping it sounded awfully familiar. turns out that it was just the exhaust nut on my keleo had come lose, so i had to re-tighten it again for the 3rd or 4th time. I have been using blue loctite, but i think i'll have to find something better this time. Also, on my tip stall accident which i had a few weeks back , i noticed the keleo was knocked completely off or detached from the head when i walked up to the plane. At first thought it had stripped the exhaust port threads completely since it was no longer attached, but believe now that it had actually come loose in preparation of the tip stall landing..... anyhow. That keleo is proving to be a problem with unscrewing in flight and gotta figure out what i can do to keep it from unscrewing in the future, i might also trim it down some to prevent it from shearing out the head if it has to hit ground hard again...... fingers crossed.
Louie
Old 06-22-2008, 07:02 AM
  #1583  
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

Thats a possibility, but doesnt explain the lack of rpm's to begin with(unless it unscrewed while taking off). I dont recall it struggling so much for decent rpms on the previous(first flight) so maybe.
Old 06-22-2008, 09:16 AM
  #1584  
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

I was in the air when Kahloq made his belly landing, so while I didn't get to see it, it was good job getting her down in one piece! Good take-off, too, WITHOUT the assistance of a gyro. If you get used to managing that torque-steer with the left thumb, you could always move the gyro to your KMP B-25 where you'll want it for the eventual engine-out scenario!

As for the Keleo unthreading itself; yep, the 220's vibration will make even the tightest header nut back out! Try putting some Permatex silicon muffler gasket material (a rust-red goop in a tube the consistency of tooth paste) on the threads first, then tighten it down and wait 24 hours before flying. Also, make sure the excess sealer oozing out of the threading when you insert it coats the side of the nut being tightened against the cylinder head. THEN, wipe off the excess.

I forgot to do this when first mounting my Keleo on Frankie; it came loose during flight 8 or so with a noticeable corresponding loss of power (and maybe pressurized fuel flow, too, who knows). Since putting this sealer on Frankie's Keleo exhaust, and, historically, on all my Saito 100's and 125, I've never had a header nut back out after using this stuff. Yet, it'll release and allow disassembly fairly easily. They sell tubes of it at most auto parts stores.

The "Old Crow" electric Frankie was an impressive performer, I'll say! Tons of power on tap, clearly faster than my 220 version, and lots of vertical. Being that it was his #2 test flight, the vertical was certainly good to explore and understand, but straight-up warbird flying seems quite "un-scale", and its quietness begged for an on-board sound system, which I believe the owner said he intended to install.

In any case, it's always good to have another giant warbird in the "squadron"...

Rip
Old 06-22-2008, 01:02 PM
  #1585  
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

I have just finished fixing all the little things that happened on the belly landing yesterday. As noted before, the header nut for the muffler was completely back out, but the tube was still kinda inside the exhaust port so it was at least still providing some pressure to the tank.
Inspecting the plane:
The flight pack was knocked loose from it hold down location, the gyro was also knocked loose, and I had to bend the keleo metal strap a little to get the muffler header nut thing to line back up to the cylinder port. Ok....so....while Im not sure if this is the cause of it backing out, there was a rather thick black metal ring in the cylinder port that would not allow the keleo header nut to thread back onto the exhaust port. I believe this is a spacer and probably was included with the muffler. As such, I would have put it on according to instructions provided in the box. But, as a result of it being there, I dont think there was near enough thread grip for the header nut to stay put. Once I removed the muffler away from the motor, I was abe to see that the spacer ring was all kock-eyed.....assumingly from the disturbance of the belly landing. Anyhow....seeing as there wasnt much space to thread the header nut on with it in there, I removed the spacer ring and simply locktited the header nut and tightened it into the cylinder exhaust port pretty good. I tightened it good, but was a little leary of tightening too much and possibly stripping it. So....we'll see if it holds.

Now....on to the retracts. One was still good...no problems. The other one, the metal ball link piece(and screw) were completely missing off of the servo arm. So, this is the reason the gear wouldnt extend back down. I had locktited the little screw, but, it obviously backed off somehow(possibly loosened the locktite from the nose over occurance the last time the plane was at the field).
I replaced both the black plastic ring/thread piece as well as the ball link assembly from a spare set of the P-51 gear I have lying around. Surprisingly, I was able to get a better geometry of the servo arm/ball link/pushrod assembly to the retract servo and gear mech with these little replacements then i was previously. Yay, a good thing.

So, everything is back up and running so to speak. The plane is ready to make another sortie...possibly later this afternoon. I will be checking the rpm's as I may have to adjust the needles again, but maybe the loss of power was simply the header nut having backed out.
Old 06-22-2008, 01:44 PM
  #1586  
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

Well I don't know if you remember my post a while back where I noted that Frankie is my first warbird/flaps/1/5 size etc... I went out and downsized to the new Topflite Gold Mustang (Hurry Home Honey) and flew it for the first time today. Fist I did a little ground work taxiing around, after somewhat comfortable I took off and the plane handled like a dream. With the Saito 100 power was not an issue, I remembered everything that I read at this forum on landing a mustang. I hit the flaps in first position as I was entering my approach nose down hit full flaps brought her in nose down throttled down and it flaired to hit on all three points.....what luck. After bringing her back to the bench I noticed that the gear seemed a little wobbly, took off the wing and everything seemed right. I even loosened the set screws and readjusted the linkage. Went back up for another flight and really began to enjoy how this bird flies. I landing followed the same procedure as above, except I may have been coming in a little hotter but on track for a perfect landing. The front wheels hit and the tail was riding high, backing down on the speed and one of the mechanicals gave way and collapsed. Upon inspection there was no damage to the hardwood or other parts of the plane. The retract mounting flanges which are black plastic completeley disintegrated. I really would like to upgrade without the air type of retracts. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Old 06-22-2008, 02:36 PM
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

Frank Tiano (Mr Top Gun ) sells some upgraded all metal adjustable retracts that might fit. http://www.franktiano.com/
Old 06-22-2008, 05:26 PM
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build


ORIGINAL: mdishinger

Well I don't know if you remember my post a while back where I noted that Frankie is my first warbird/flaps/1/5 size etc... I went out and downsized to the new Topflite Gold Mustang (Hurry Home Honey) and flew it for the first time today. Fist I did a little ground work taxiing around, after somewhat comfortable I took off and the plane handled like a dream. With the Saito 100 power was not an issue, I remembered everything that I read at this forum on landing a mustang. I hit the flaps in first position as I was entering my approach nose down hit full flaps brought her in nose down throttled down and it flaired to hit on all three points.....what luck. After bringing her back to the bench I noticed that the gear seemed a little wobbly, took off the wing and everything seemed right. I even loosened the set screws and readjusted the linkage. Went back up for another flight and really began to enjoy how this bird flies. I landing followed the same procedure as above, except I may have been coming in a little hotter but on track for a perfect landing. The front wheels hit and the tail was riding high, backing down on the speed and one of the mechanicals gave way and collapsed. Upon inspection there was no damage to the hardwood or other parts of the plane. The retract mounting flanges which are black plastic completeley disintegrated. I really would like to upgrade without the air type of retracts. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Don't know if they'll come close to fitting the gear rails in your wing, but I upgraded my H9 60 Mustang (Marie) with Robart 609HD 85 degree mechanical retracts. MUCH stronger (and less wobbly) than the stock H9 retracts. I landed on them for two years (100+ flights) before they wore out!

At $30 a pair at most LHS, I think they're a steal. I almost just put another set in, but decided to go with Robart offset oleo struts and pneumatics this time...

Rip
Old 06-22-2008, 08:31 PM
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

Mufflers and prop report:

Kahloq, that spacer in the threaded part of the exhaust port in the Saito probably needs to be there. There were two flavors of Saito 220s made with different depths of threads. The hex-head part of the nut on the Keleo exhaust should not go in far enough to hit the exhaust port. You should still see a round or two of threads. If you're tightening the nut against the engine, put the spacer back in. If you can tighten the Keleo nut w/o the spacer and the nut doesn't bottom out against the port, you're good to go. Check with Kelvin on this if you're not sure. Rip is dead-on with the Permatex thing. Use it on all exhaust nuts. When you think you have the nut tight enough, tighten it some more !!

As for the ball links, I always use a washer between the socket head screw and the ball link so even if the link pops loose from the ball, it will still be retained (somewhat) by the washer.

I had made several flights with the 17x10 Bolly, but was still getting beat by my flying buddy with the TF Mustang. I tried a 16x12 APC today and picked up noticeably more speed and now beat him. The 17x10 was turning about 9,200. the 16x12 turned about 8,800 on the ground. It doesn't jump off the runway like the lower pitch props, but once she gets rolling, it's pretty awesome. If you're flying a 220 and looking for top speed, give one of these a try. It takes a bunch more runway rollout on takeoff, but you'll get everyone's attention !! I've got about 25 flights on it now, plus about a gallon burned before mounting it.

Nick
Old 06-22-2008, 08:50 PM
  #1590  
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

The hex part of the muffler header does NOT touch the exhaust port when tightened down and still has at least 3-4 threads still visible.

The ball link assembly did have a washer on it where you mentioned. It all just vibrated loose and fell out. If this happens again.....I'll put a nylon lock nut on the bottom side(if they make em that small)
Old 06-22-2008, 09:37 PM
  #1591  
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

Hi Guys ,

re the ball link, Just a suggestion!
Throw the Plastic link supplied away and fit a J:R Heli link Instead .
It is far stronger and does the job well .
You will have to open up the hole in the center very slightly to allow it to screw on to the threaded rod .

If you are going to continue to use the retracts suppilied, watch the part of the linkage arm that restricts the leg from exteding to far and binding on the wheel well.
This part of the linkage is made out of very inferior light material which Is not suitable for the job intended, It bends all by Itself under spring pressure .
This results in a hung undercarriage and will burn out the retract servo .
mine lasted 4 flights before this happened with a new leg
Old 06-22-2008, 09:49 PM
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build


ORIGINAL: GSK

If you are going to continue to use the retracts suppilied,
So if one wanted to throw away the stock retracts and wanted good quality pneumatic retracts that are a pretty close drop in fit what should they buy?
Old 06-22-2008, 10:01 PM
  #1593  
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

Robart are coming out with a retract system to replace the stock unit ,

It will be available In a few weeks
In my opinion Horizon should help compensate us for the ones they supply In the kit , It is not suitable for use as intended .
I would have willingly paid more for the kit which would have been cheaper in the long run .
I could have done without the grief and expense the stock ones have caused me .
Old 06-23-2008, 09:44 AM
  #1594  
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

It would be nice if they treated it like their B-25 and offer a robart retract kit, after all i still had to kick down another hundred bucks just to get the servos to make the mechanicals work.
Old 06-23-2008, 09:47 AM
  #1595  
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build


ORIGINAL: GSK

Robart are coming out with a retract system to replace the stock unit ,

It will be available In a few weeks
In my opinion Horizon should help compensate us for the ones they supply In the kit , It is not suitable for use as intended .
I would have willingly paid more for the kit which would have been cheaper in the long run .
I could have done without the grief and expense the stock ones have caused me .
GSK,

While I agree completely with your comments about the gear, these arguments have been applied to virtually every H9 warbird build thread I've ever read.

The stock retracts and wire struts on my H9 "Marie" were so weak and wobbly I couldn't believe anyone at H9 had EVER watched that warbird taxi, and STILL shipped product with them. Total junk. Buy the ARF, toss the stock retracts in the scrap bin and move on.

That being said, considering H9's obvious minimum investment in Marie's stock gear, and their relative value to, say, a pair of Robart 609HDs ($30 at LHS) with which I replaced them even before my Marie's maiden, I wouldn't expect a big change in the price of the ARF were they to begin leaving them out! Heck, I see a $30 difference in price in the same H9 ARF just between our two LHS!

Leaving them out for credit is less of an issue to me than my desire to see them set the gear rails up at the factory to be ready for an aftermarket gear upgrade from someone like Robart. I've spent HOURS adapting my Marie's gear rails and wheel bays to accomodate Robart 551RS pneumatic retracts and offset Robostruts.

As H9 stock retracts go, Frankie's gear IS better. But, having already easily bent the retract flanges on Frankie's gear, I definitely plan on replacing the stock gear with something both more scale (offsets!), and substantial. But first, I want to finish upgrading my Marie's worn-out 609's with the Robart pneumatics before doing it all over again with Frankie!

Besides, I want to see the (drop in?) Robart replacements being released for this plane before I decide which Robarts (or Sierra's) to buy.

The above complaints being said, I own two H9 warbird ARFs, they fly terrific, and will undoubtedly own one or two more......ESPECIALLY if they ever come out with an 80", 1.50 size Corsair (but don't even TRY to provide stock, rotating retracts, please)!

Rip
Old 06-23-2008, 10:30 AM
  #1596  
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

I will chime in with Rip here. Even though I've had a couple not so minimal issues with the stock gear on this plane, they are still a 100 times better then the wire stuff thats included with the 60 size planes and better then not getting anything. Almost NO manufacturer includeds heavy duty retracts with their kits, so H9 at least should be given credit they did provided something substantial enough to get some flights in. Its just too expensive to included high quality retracts along with the kit. The price would be $699+ instead of $469....and therefore they'd sell fewer planes. Its business. As mentioned, the B-25 comes with wire strut fixed gear and YOU have the option of buying a robart kit or use whatever. Top Flight is no different. Their 60 size retracts on the P-51 arent the greatest either and they dont offer any gear with their giant scale P-51. Its a separate purchase. The ppice of the TF P-51 is only $50 less then the H9 that does come WITH useable gear.
Ok...so, since the cost of the mechanicals is $65 retail, I can agree that it would be nice to have the option to leave those out of the box and have a price point of about the same as the TF giant P-51($409) as well as offering them boxed with the plane for those that want them. I am not convinced they are junk retracts though. The oleos are pretty stiff, but yeah the linkages could be beefed up some.
Old 06-23-2008, 03:52 PM
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

Hi Guys ,
Thanks for the response .

My problem is that having had a lot of experience over many years Designing and building the tooling to make Sheet metal products and the like ,I had greater expectations of the product after first viewing the Kit retracts. Or am I a victim of the advertising on the box

Quote " Hanger 9,s revolutionary HEAVY DUTY Retracts . ???? Now that Is false advertising and I presume In the USA Is Illegal is it not ?

So perhaps if I had known just how much an inferior product they were and the expense that they did put me through I would have reassessed my options before purchasing the kit .
I even bought a second set to replace the broken welds and cracked broken legs etc In the hope that I could make them last a reasonably time.
So when the Linkages started to allow the leg to extend and cause a hang up while flying consequently burning out a $70 plus servo I had had enough .
It would have been better If there were no retracts In the Kit at all .


The good thing Is that we have put out our experiences on this thread allowing fellow modelers to see what they are getting Into .
They can then make their own judgments based on the experience of others which Is what the forum is about

I have been Modeling for the best part of 40 years and In the process of finishing off a 1/5th scale pica mustang with decent retracts so with another coat of epoxy resin and more sanding it Is not far away . Then onto the full build Topflight P47 also with Robarts which I have In the box.
Regards G
Old 06-23-2008, 05:30 PM
  #1598  
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

Hi folks, I didn't want to restart the kit retract wars again, but was just interested in hearing if anybody found any ready-made retracts that would be a pretty close drop-in fit.

Let me tell what I am trying out. I called Spring Air and asked if they had any that would fit. Is it Bill? from Spring Air, he said the 704's would. So when I received them, no they wouldn't fit, to small in everyway. Maybe they would have fit the old version P51D, but not the new version. After a closer investigation, I discovered the 404's had a bolt pattern that would pretty darn near fit, with a little extension of the bolt pattern it would probably fit. Bill, had some offset 1/2" diameter and 9" oleo's to go with the 404's, he said to cut them off to the length of the stock oleo. I know the offsets will require some minor cutouts to the well area. We'll see when they get here.

By the way, when I pulled my last set of working stock retracts out, I found some cracks in the welds that would surely have popped off on the next flight and caused another nose over. I've been lucky the last two times it did this. But no more flying until I get the retract issue resolved.
Old 06-23-2008, 06:37 PM
  #1599  
kahloq
 
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

I have a pair of 705RS robart retracts Im using in the KMP B-25. These would fit the H9 P-51, but not the bolt pattern. It would require simply drilling new holes and installing some new blind nuts.

The following sizes should fit:

Good
551 85 Degree robostrut ready. 8-18 pound planes
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXMRR0&P=7

Good(spring down)
706RS 85 degree robostrut ready 8-18 pound. Uses 7/16" strut
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXNCY4&P=7

Better(could use the stock oleo struts from the H9 plane)
636 85 degree robostrut ready(or any oloe thats 1/2" or even 5/8") up to 32pound plane
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXMUA9&P=7

Old 06-29-2008, 08:11 PM
  #1600  
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Default RE: New Hangar 9 1.50 P-51 Build

Do you guys think that Futaba s3003 servos would work on the ailerons on the mustang.

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