P40 Maniac

My Feedback: (15)

I have two warbird kits to build a Topflite P 40 warhawk 1/7 scale and Pica 1/8 scale Corsair F-4U. Was wondering if I should monokote or fiberglass these to kits. I have never worked with fiberglass and am not to sure on how to do it. I am trying to make to scale will be my first scale projects. Want to know what you think.

Burrito Bandito

Do a search here on RCU with Fiberglass or polycrylic as keywords. There are many opinions on these methods and their merits. Proflooney has some good information on glassing as does Ksonn. As a matter of fact, Ksonn has experience with both the Poly and Epoxy methods of fiberglassing.

Good luck with whatever direction you take.

John

mulligan

As stated above, you will find a lot of information on fiberglassing here. And even if you don't find enough, you can ask more!

I had some apprehension on fiberglassing the first time I did it, but it turned out to be a LOT easier than I feared, and the results were better than I hoped. I will never monokote a scale plane again.

The short version of my technique is:

1. Sand and fill as needed (as normal)

2. Very lightly dust surface with 3M spray adhesive and slightly stretch fiberglass cloth over surface (to minimize small folds)

3. Mix batch of 20 min. finish epoxy and spread over fiberglass cloth; squeegee out as much epoxy as possible. Wait until dry.

4. Repeat step 3 to add a second coat of epoxy to fill voids in fiberglass cloth and get smooth surface.

5. Use a palm sander to finish sand for paint prep (you'll be amazed at how easily any folds in fiberglass cloth are removed).

6. Prime and paint


Go for it!

- George

shupack

I agree with George, I'm glassing my first plane now and it's much easier than I thougt it would be. I'm using Z-poxy because I can't find polycrylic here in the UK, and if it's easier than epoxy, it must put itself on the plane for you. I actually think glass is easier than plastic because you have 20-30 minutes to work with it, where you can melt a hole in monokote in the blink of an eye, and you have to stretch, and tugg, and pull, and get out all the wrinkles, then you still have to seal all the seams or they'll pull up..........I could go on forever, but I think the best part is "no hangar rash!!!!!" my chorus gull is about a year old with monokote, and it looks like crap. i've seen 10 year old glassed planes that look like new. i'm happy with glass so far. give it a shot.

dennis

Gleterno

I'm considering building a kit with a friend, and I've been told that fiberglassing take a long time, and is very easy to ruin on your first time.. Could anyone go in a bit more detail, as to exactly what to buy, how much cloth you will need to complete a size 60 warbird, and just how expensive this can get? Also, any tips for priming and painting a final nice glossy coat? And you must glass outside? I have heard it is very messy.. Also, it would seem the fuse would be especially difficult.. Considering it's round.

P40 Maniac

My Feedback: (15)

I defiantly would like more information on it too. It would be very helpful. Thanks for the replies, keep them coming.

bignasdy-RCU

warbirds....... yummmm!............MONOCOTE? Whats that?
d

Mark Brewer

If you're interested in doing it right, I suggest you contact Dave Platt and order his VHS tape. www.daveplattmodels.com. It will pretty much answer all of your questions. The video is well worth the investment (about $40.00 or so) , a very inexpensive education by the best in the hobby IMHO,,, Good Luck,,,, Mark

Burrito Bandito

Here is the Polycrylic method as it was explained to me....it is a direct quote but i did not get the author's permission, so I will not mention his name. I was always intimidated by glassing, I had silk and doped plenty of planes 25 years ago, but the epoxy resin just had me psyched. When I learned about the poly method, I felt comfortable enough to try it and was very satisfied with the results.

Disclaimer: THIS IS ONLY ONE METHOD AND THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT VARIATIONS. THIS IS WHAT WORKED FOR ME AND I WANT TO PASS IT ON TO ANYONE IT MAY HELP. FOR THOSE WHO ARE DYED IN THE WOOL EPOXY RESIN FANS, I LOVE THE RESULTS YOUR METHODS ACHIEVE AND WANT TO USE RESIN SOME DAY TOO. NOW THAT I HAVE A COMFORT LEVEL WITH THE PROCESS, I FEEL LIKE I WILL HAVE BETTER CHANCES FOR SUCCESS IN THE FUTURE.

"i used .56oz cloth I purchased locally from a dealer who flies with us. I basically laid out the cloth over the part to be glassed and trimmed so it had about a 1/4 inch overlay over the edges. I slice the cloth to the edge of the surface at the corners so it will lay down over the edges cleanly. I use Polycrylic instead of epoxy. You can get it at Lowes in the paint section. I then apply the poly to the glass starting at the center and working out to the edges to get a smooth surface. I use dense sponge pieces to apply it. sponge brushes work ok if you take the sponge off the stick. The sponge will load up with poly. If possible i try to do both sides at the same time, ie top and bottom of stab, both sides of a section of fuse. The poly is water based and will absorb into the wood and shrink,(warp) the wood if not done symetrically. after that has dried i use xtra fine sandpaper to clean up the edges. it sands very easily. I will then apply a second coat to help fill the weave. When dry (hour or 2) I will then mix some light weight spackle compound to fill any remaining weave. When that is almost dry, I will run a damp sponge over the surface to "sand" out the spackle and smooth the surfaces.after a light sanding when dry, a third coat of poly to finish. It actually doesnt take long to do, doesnt smell bad like epoxy, dries quickly but not as fast as epoxy so you have plenty of working time and arent rushed so much, and is a lot easier to work with. It is not as tough as epoxy though. It is a personal prefernce, but I am really liking it better then epoxy. I did my zagi the same way and it really isnt heavy at all. to me its no heavier then monocoat or whatever platic covering one might choose. At this point I lightly sand and use a tack cloth to clean the surface. Then comes a light coat of sandable primer and a light sanding. Tack cloth again and by now you should have a good base. Make sure your surfaces are good before you start the glassing process, because like evrything else, flaws will show. Now that the first coat of primer is on, I pencil in my panel lines, rivets, hatches etc. I then layed 1/8th inch drafting tape on the panel lines. 1/16th would have been preferred but couldnt find it locally. Lay them all out and burnish the tape down. I use elmers in a syringe for rivets. If it doesnt look right or you mess up you can wipe it off with a q-tip and dry the area and try it again. Dont let the needle hit the surface, just let it "drop" onto your pencil dot. I will do 1 section at a time and let it dry, as the glue dries it will actually drop down and flatten out a bit, then move on to the next area. Hatches are made with either the drafting tape or chrome HVAC tape cut to size. Once all the detail is on and dry(glue rivets) tack cloth it again and spray a second coat of primer over everything. When dry, I lightly sand, tack cloth it, and shoot a third light coat. When dry, I peel the tape off. Peel it back over itself to get a crisp line. When it is all peeled off you are ready for your final paint scheme. Now this is just my way of doing it and it works pretty well for me. Others may have different ways to do it and your individual results may vary. It all really goes faster then it all sounds. This to me is the way to go, and I will be using this method pretty much exclusively for all my planes. Its fast and everything cleans up with water. Unfortunatally, I didnt take construction pics but will do it on the next model. "

Hope this at least gets you started and if you choose to use this method and need more assistance, just let me know.

P40 Maniac

My Feedback: (15)

Scale Dreamer that is a lot more helpful. Thanks It is explained a lot better for me. Ivan

wulf190

My Feedback: (19)

100% positively glassing for me. The first few times I used Zpoxy I was very happy with the finish I obtained. Certainly I got a bit better as I learned the consistency of the thinned mixture (about 50/50 90% isopropyl alcohol and Zpoxy and how best to sand the surface. But, you shouldn't mess anything up to bad if you show some caution in your sanding strength and grit choice and try your best to keep the coats even until the grain is filled. A little microballoon mixed in can help towards this end on the final coat. You'll sort of know when the cloth (.60 oz for me) is filled by experience, not too tough to tell. Three planes I've used it on now and I've been impressed with the finished weight of all of them. Also I've knocked a few around and have been impressed as well with the overall durability and paintability of the surface. Big thumbs up from me.

Grumpy Monkey

My Feedback: (7)

Scale Dreamer,
How did that work out for you, I am still waiting to see pics. LOL

Warren

P.S. If its a warbird, monocote doesnt do it justice, IMHO.

Burrito Bandito

It went so well, I was really surprised. Everything is done, except for the fill of the ailerons, elevator and rudder. The alchohol to clean out some of the goop in the panel lines went great too. I started to get a little anxious for completion and felt myself rushing so I put it up for a while. Not gonna fly it for at least two more planes anyway.

In the meantime, Santa brought me a scroll saw and I am in the middle of my first plans built project.....a dehavilland Twin Otter. Really cool plane that was designed for electric but will have 2 Norvel .074's in it. Really having a lot of fun with this one. Just need engines and work out the nacelles then cover and assemble the components. Should come out under 4 lbs.

Gotta do the canopy on the stang too. Got me a little psyched there as well. Just not looking forward to masking those delecate lines inside and upside down! Short stubby fingers don't help either. Was thinking of going the liquid masking route, but can't figure how to make the lines clean and straight.

Like your new avitar....Corsair is a favorite of mine. BTW (as if I can talk) thought you were going to post some pics of the corsair under construction. Oh...meant to tell you that there is a HUGE mustang on www.rcwarbirds.com done in the Gunfighter Scheme. Check it out.

Keep in touch, and sorry to be OT everyone.

John

flying2bill

My Feedback: (2)

The poly-crylic refereced above is a Min-wax product and is also available at Menards and I think also at Home Depot. At my local Menards it runs about $35 per gal and I understand a gal will do appx 2 large scale warbirds. I don't have an idea on the cost of cloth, it seems to me Sig coverall is fairly inexpensive, if that would work. The last Giant scale plane (giant ugly stick) that I monocoated cost me more than $75 in materials (covering) so depending on what paint you use I don't see glassing and painting being that much more expensive unless you are using high dollar automotive paints, some of those run $75 and up per gal, but properly thinned you should only need a qt or so of paint (not including primer), however it has been my experiance that at the body shop 2 qts of paint cost as much as a gal. Our local Tractor Supply store has "implement" (tractor) paints that come in a variety of colors for $20 per gal. These are oil based paints however and may require some hardener be added to protect from glowfuels

k_sonn

My Feedback: (32)

Ivan:

In December I created the following post on fiberglassing: http://www.rcuniverse.com/showthread...=Fiberglassing. It explained the steps I follow for glassing a plane. Since that post was created, I have experimented with using Minwax Polyacrylic instead of epoxy. I have found that I like the polyacrylic better. Mainly because it is faster and I do not have to scrape off the excess resin. I could not tell the difference between the epoxy resin covered parts and the polyacrylic covered parts. As far as painting, on warbirds I use latex exterior primer, latex exterior flat paint, and Nelson Hobby flat clear for fuel proofing. If you have any questions or need further help feel free to email me and I will do my best to help..

Schwoop

Yeah - I've done ZPoxy (works great!) and the Minwax Polycrylic and laquer (even better) method.

I'm glassing a TopFlite kit right now using Minwax laquer (not the Polycrylic).

IT IS TOO EASY!!! In fact I thought I was missing something in the strength or finish because it is so simple to do. But thankfully, I'm not!

I use the polycrylic for foam surfaces, I've heard you can warp wood with it - so on wood I use the laquer version (Home Depot or Lowes)

Heres what I do:

-Purchase 1 pint can of Minwax laquer and foam brushes
-Fill dents and sand
-Trim fiberglass cloth to size
-Use a horse or hog hair brush (not 3M spray) and brush fiberglass (It creates static electricty and makes the fglass stick to the balsa)
-Put two coats of minwax on (You don't have to worry about weight build up like ZPoxy--THANK GOODNESS!!)
-Sand slightly
-Prime
-Paint
-FLY!

Let me know if you're interested in more detail... I can step you through this again...

Juice

Schwoop:

Can you tell us the full and exact product name directly from the label of the Minwax lacquer?

With all the variations of polyurethane/polycrylic/polyacrylic/polywhatever and the multitude of Minwax products, it can get confusing quickly (as we've seen on other threads). I didn't know Minwax had lacquer based stuff.

Juice

P40 Maniac

My Feedback: (15)

schwoop

Does the lacquer have any effect on the glue like ca, epoxy or the glue in the plywood?

RCJones

Did anyone get an anser about the Minwax lacquer? I found the polycrylic but nothing lacquer based at The Home Depot. Can someone elaborate on the procedure to do the tail feathers? I'm a bit confused about where to start in the back.

CorsairJock

My Feedback: (90)

Somebody should mention the weight difference between the methods. If the reasons for keeping it light aren't obvious, no need to read further.

This is quote from another post on subject of Top Flite Corsair finishing:

"My estimate is that 'glass and paint would add 2 or more pounds to final weight. I base this on what I have seen. I have built 3 Top Flite Corsairs, each one finished with iron on covering, as well Robart retracts with RoboStruts equipped, and each one came in under 9 lbs. I have met others with simular results. I have also met others who went the 'glass and paint route, and each one of theirs ended up OVER 11 lbs. NOW, I truely believe that a 'glassed and painted one could be built which would be lighter than the ones I have seen, I just haven't seen one yet. If you consider yourself an accomplished/ skilled builder, capable of doing a better job than most others, then maybe you can keep the weight down to the level of the iron on covered ones. Check my gallery for pics of 2 of my Top Flight Corsairs which are covered with iron on covering. #167 weighs 8 lbs, 10 oz without fuel. It has full Robarts and flaps."

And here is a quote that I sent to person who began that post, concerning the 'glass and paint' crowd:

"1) They put a lot more work/ effoft into the finish of their aircraft, and hate to see an aircraft that looks almost as good (or AS good) as theirs with so much less work effort. And while we're at it, real warbirds are not made of fiberglass, either.

2) They have never been to airshows to study how real ones look in flight. If they did, they would realize that a 1/8 scale warbird flying by at 100 mph and landing at 40 mph just doesn't look scale/ realistic. If we could make smooth, steady passes at say, 45 mph and land at 20 ~ 25 mph, the realism factor greatly increases. Full scale loops take somewhere around 10 ~ 15 seconds, not 3 or 4. So, in my opinion, slower is better.

So, the bottom line is: theirs may look better/ more scale on the ground, mine look better/ more scale in the air.

While on the subject of iron on covering, I have recently covered 2 Corsairs in about the same period, one with MonoKote, the other with UltraCote. The UltraCote is definately more wrinkle resistant/ less likely to wrinkle when after setting around awhile. UltraCote also has Corsair Blue, a slightly more accurate color for Corsairs than the Insgnia Blue offered by Top Flight (MonoKote).

Also, no matter which method of finishing you decide on, I encourage you to do some homework/ research, buy a Squadron/ Signal Corsair book or simular, and DON'T finish your Corsair like the one on the box. A $10 investment (for the book) is small compaired to what you probably already have into this kit, and putting on your own scale finish will be very rewarding and show that you know your Corsairs."

Check out my Corsair by clicking on my "Gallery"

Grumpy Monkey

My Feedback: (7)

While I totally respect CorsairJocks statements, I do think you can have your cake and eat it so to speak. The polycrylic method has already been mentioned and if you want to glass it and keep it light, that is the way to go, IMHO. Epoxy and resin is heavier then poly and monokote and probably wouldnt be to your advantage for a first time glassing project on a TF Corsair. The advantage with glass though is you can paint it with latex and although the real ones werent glassed, you can get the same effect as they were painted also. The monokote way is good if you are looking for a pristine finish on your bird, but if you want to model a down n dirty, in the field, war flown bird, then it would be glass and latex. It really all depends on the scale detail you are looking for, ie: rivets, panel lines, etc. CorsairJock is correct about seeing the detail in the air, you wont, and flying one scale is a whole different subject. So really it all depends on what you want as the proud owner of that lil bent wing beauty.

Warren

Rocketman612

My Feedback: (85)

CorsairJock,
I think your on target with regard to finished weight of the TF Corsair. I have been doing allot of research into this kit before I started to build (I'm on the wing right now). Regarding landing gear from the research light is better (Robart or CJ). I had started out wanting to do the tail wheel retract, gear doors, RDS hidden controls and glassing the plane with a goal weight of 9lbs. and after much reflection I don't believe that's a reachable goal (for me at least)
The enLIGHTENED plane will have the non retract tail wheel, standard pushrods for ailerons, no gear doors. I still plan to glass it with 0.5 oz cloth and DEFT polyurethane with an attempt to put in some detail like panel lines,etc. Plan on Hitec mini servos for retract,ailerons and the RCV90 and probable glow driver to finish the deal. I have seen several warbirds become hanger queens or re kitted due to being heavy and hard to land. Plan to finish as the "Wart Hog" . Keep building, Pete

JAkridge

I did alot of homework..reading, posting, on this very subject. And this seems to be the final post for me on this subject.

I will be going with ultracoat. This will be installed on a TF Corsair .60. My reasons are, 1. Weight, 2. Will the finish product look that much better? (For Me). "NO" 3. Cost ( Didn't use this in my decision). 4. Time (Didn't use this either).

So, weight and what will "I" really get out of it was the final factors in my decision. I love building my planes, I love Flying my planes, I love showing off my planes. But the fiberglass method just will not benefit "Me". If and when I build a Plane to take to the Scale Masters I'll go the Full Monty......But Not This Time.

Thanks Guys.........I see both opinions......That's what makes this web site so Great.

Thanks to All.
JWA

Schwoop

Gentlemen,

Sorry for the slow response. When I'm not fiberglassing a foam surface with Minwax Polycrylic, I use the Minwax, Fast Drying, Polyurethane "clear satin" for sheeted surfaces. I have heard of warping with sheeted balsa and Polycrylic - so I've opted for the non-water based product.

If you're looking for more specifics on the cans, I've got them right here!

Check out the image below!

Wray

Craig, I tested the minwax polycrylic today on some scrap 1/16 balsa, and it warped nicely . You're saying you get no warpage from the polyurethane? Also, how thick does the balsa have to be before it doesn't seem to be affected by warping? Thanks for the info. Wish I had known this last year when I glassed my scratch built p-38