rustypep

My Feedback: (6)

I usually stay out of these arguements too but decided to say my peace. All I can say is own two Top Flite kits and they have ABS cowls, not as good wood selection (heavier sheeting and lesser quality ply), die crunching, build a little heavier, no cockpit kit or any parts of it, ok hardware and ok but not great customer service. I have several instances where the parts provided didn't match the plan or vise versa. All Skyshark kits are laser cut/CAD designed, one piece fiberglass cowls in many cases. some include cockpits or at least a control panel, sullivan control rods and better hardware, provides for flap options in some kits but warns of weight penalty, and I am sure I am missing a few other positives including a detailed manual although TF's are pretty good too.

I can count up the cost of the sheeting, fiberglass cowl, hardware, etc. that I replaced in my TF Spit kit and could easily add $100-$150 to what I spent on the kit and more. One can make a fair agruement about the smaller size but how many build the wrong warbird the first or second time, and crash it the first time because it came out too heavy or didn't arrive at a good final product because of issues in the kit building process or something else. I am not saying this to slam TF or sell Skyshark. I would rather have both as they are now than see either one go away. Fewer options available in the marketplace is not good for anyone but the competition. Neither TF plane I have is built by Skyshark (Spit & T-34) but I was partial to Skyshark's Avenger and Tempest. I like many others took for granted that they would be around building kits long enough for me to get to build one and now regret not putting one in my inventory sooner.

The Avenger was $350 but had a 72" span, detailed cockpit kit, built up flight surfaces, fiberglass cowl, wheel well detail, maple hardwood for servo and cowl mounts, three-views and the rest of Skysharks usual quality. Was this price really unreasonable or do we as the consumer have unrealistic expectations? I called today and they are making a waiting list of sorts just in case they produce some more kits. I put myself down for an Avenger and Tempest. I sure hope they do it. They also provided a variety that was not available from other kit companies.

I also understand the position of our European friends who are faced with higher taxes which made these kits less attractive. It is an unfortunate reality that exists in places in the world economy. We in the US sometimes take for granted how low our taxes really are relative to other developed counties.

Lastly, I have to give the owners a lot of credit for making themselves available to us in these public forums and supporting the scale & sport scale modeling community. They advertised, showed up at trade shows, and even opened themselves up to some debatable criticism at times in these forums, while other companies make zero or minimal effort. They support both RCSB and I believe RCU. If Skyshark couldn't sell a profitable kit line after the level of effort, thinking and committment they put into it, I do not expect anyone else to come along and succeed or try either.

Peter_OZ

My Feedback: (1)

bloody shame, another victom to the current trend of the market swamped with cheap chinese made ARFs. No one can compete and make a reasonable profit.

Only good news is that as the Chinese economies booms ahead and the standard of living in proportion so till will wages, so in a few years the wheel will turn and the cost of manufacturing in China will not be so attractive.

Scant comfort to all the kit makers going under now though [&o]

Peter_OZ

My Feedback: (1)

I guess TF make a kit to fit into a distinct $ market category and have to cut a few corners to ensure they fit that very small window. Slightly better quality wood, hardware etc would drive price to where they can not compete against the ARF market. I would bet that they are running on some very tight margins.

Comparison would be looking at how Pizza Hut and Dominos operate, not the best quality but you get a pizza that is cheap, tastes ok and fills you up. Every morsel on that pizza is carefully weighed, measured and costed. The margins are tiny and they rely on volume sales.

Same for TF, ok quality, ok performance, ok scale appearance. They do the job and in fact for the money they are a pretty good option to learn building skills. Agree though that the balsa sheeting is crap but I can live with it. Some of their kits like the P40 and Giant scale P47 are very close in scale outline and if you can keep weight down they fly very well.

Anyway lets hope TF (GP) can contune to survive as the modelling community needs them. hmmm wonder if their kits are still made in the US or are now outsourced to a factory in China. Most of thge GP range is now made in China so quite possible.

oh well might have to brush up on scratch building skills

busarider29

My Feedback: (4)

I agree with what a few members have pointed out already.....they were just too over-priced. I recall countless...and I mean COUNTLESS times that I visited their site (I wanted to build the ME-109 G6) but just could never get past the price for their kits. $300+ was just too steep for a 60-90 size warbird full wood kit. I can purchase a Ziroli 1/5 scale warbird FULL kit for just a little more than that. Granted, Skyshark did have some nice features to their kits (lazer cut cockpit details) and offered up some nice fiberglass parts but it still didn't justify the price. I think if there were any way that they could have trimmed their prices down.....to say at least close to what the Top Flite 60 size birds go for ($150), then they would certainly still be in business and maybe even giving Top Flite a run for their money which would have been awesome for them because the TF kits sell like hot cakes. Furthermore, I think better marketing would have helped them tremendously as well. Go through Tower Hobbies to sell their kits.....just like Top Flite does. I don't know all the details and expenses that it takes to manufacture wook kits, but TF has been doing it for years at a price ($150) that has stayed relatively unchanged in 13+ years.
Still, with all that said, I absolutely sulk when a hobby retailer/manufacturer has to close their doors. It's too bad.

Tommy_Gun

If you weren't in the position to know what it takes financially to produce a kit such as the Skyshark lineup,
How in the heck can you even begin to expect them to drop prices?

Do you think that they should receive no reimbursement for the time they spend producing, marketing and supporting the product line they have?

Do they exist for the sole purpose of providing us all with cheap kits that they should make no profit on?

Comparing Skyshark to Top Flite is another total mismatch in the area of financial backing.

Skyshark is as I understand a family owned and run small business. Top Flite is a corporate business giant comparatively speaking.

We have become a nation of instant gratification for the lowest price consumers and it is taking it's toll on hard working folks here at home.

rustypep

My Feedback: (6)

I totally agree. Also, many corporations with multiple revenue streams can continue to let an underperforming line keep going for a while until it begins to drag the overall profit down. This is a luxury that the smaller kit makers don't have. A 5% margin is a 5% margin but if the whole company had to operate on it than it could be a different story. The fact that the only new thing TF has released in tha last few years are ARF's should be an indicator of where they see the greatest profit potential. It certainly won't be to revamp a kit line that is quickly becoming obsolete to a growing part of today's market. Everyone seems to want Axis fighters now but they haven't traditionally sold well in the US but maybe that will change. Frankly, I am still surprised TF continues to discount thier GS P-47. That is still a good deal, as is the T-34. I believe the FW190 was the last kit TF discontinued due to lack of sales. I am sure Skyshark could have been competitive with TF if they wanted to reduce what they included in their kits. ABS parts, etc. but they were trying to do better and give us another option. I guess the bottom line is there is still a large group that doesn't want to pay more than $150 for a kit, regardless of how many parts get replaced/upgraded/added during the build process and they are entitled to hold that position.

rustypep

My Feedback: (6)

I have to edit what I said on recent kits. The Piper Arrow and and the update to the Contender are more recent from TF.

LDM

My Feedback: (15)

Come on now , lets all keep it real , I will start ....[X(]I totally respect the guys who simply said the quality is great but too steep for my wallet or for my perception of Value . This is not about China , America , cheap labor and or profit , its about choice and you , yes many of you who are now did not buy when you had all the time in the wolrd . Just like the post on Pica kits , you know the one "is Pica out of business " , I have gone to that post , told people about kits on sale on RCU , Ebay ect and guess what , they dont buy them !!!
Skyshark is gone because we , you , me ect as consumer did not choose to buy there kits , now we (well not me because I am a realist ) are crying , if you feel that bad do what some of the guys said , call them and buy a kit or put your name on a list or find the guy in NewEnland who had a ton of kits a month ago .
PLease dont be offended but we use these post for every possible political venue but TRUTH and FREEDOM , both of those cause the end of skyshark--- your ability to live in a great country that allows freedom of choice and survival of the fittest . If you guys love Mike and his company ---you should have chosen to buy a kit every 6 months or so to keep him in business , that is what he needed , not a long "I am sorry there gone post " I did not buy there kits , no time to build so I have no regrets , because the business world cycles , and soon enought if kits are in demand , they will be made , its that simple .

I run a company that now employs more high paid americans then when we made all our products in the USA . We now import 80% of our goods , changeing the line every two years too meet the ever changeing demands of the US consumer . If we invested in machinery to make the goods we would be out of Biz by the time the lines were set up because the trends change that fast .
We had a choice , and the best choice is constant change , dont ever get attached to a line , a brand or a trend , because it will all change , usually withen two years , that my friends you can take to the bank

herm

You cant compare a laser cut kit to a die cut kit in terms of cost.. die cutting may take all of a few seconds, while it may take a complex kit about 45 minutes to be laser cut.. that really limits the production rate and thus you either buy more $15000 laser machines or just live with a low production rate cottage industry. Anyone knows how long it took to laser a Skyshark kit?

The part I dont understand is how come all the cheap arfs are laser cut?.. they must be buying their lasers really cheap. The laser tubes also have limited life, they burn up after several thousand hours and are not cheap to replace.

LDM

My Feedback: (15)

herm , I agree 100% , they are lasor cut and they(many arf companies ) have the funding , I think the arf guys realized that they can save in labor cost because the factories can assemble the planes faster , and we all know lasor kits with good cutting will fly together very fast .

herm

The arf companies use lasers because they need the precision.. they assemble all the laser cut wood parts inside a steel mold (with a special glue) they close the mold and apply ultrasonic vibrations.. this heats up the glue and makes it set, plus the steel mold guarantees alignment.. and out pops out a perfect fuselage or wing section. Apparently the vibrations dont heat up the wood, just the glue.

da Rock

So why wouldn't their website mention this?

Could you point us to the announcement?

butlern

My Feedback: (15)

It's detailed in post #5.

Mike and Angie have posted on rcscalebuilder.com, too.

I have no idea why their website dosen't mention this.

OldScaleGuy

My Feedback: (2)

It is a shame another kit manufacturer is driven out of business. If any one wants a kit from any manufacturer they had better get it and stop procrastinating. Our dragging our feet to buy this kit or that kit has not helped the kit makers at all, it only makes them shuts their doors sooner.

Regards,
Ex co-owner
Jack Stafford Models

busarider29

My Feedback: (4)

Ok, relax buddy.

All I was doing was throwing out some ideas. I don't know all of the details but I do know that the Skyshark and TF kits are much the same compartively.....ie same relative scale....same style of building and instruction booklet. It really looks like Skyshark originally tried to model their kits from TF and then add some other things to set themselves apart. The kits are not produced the same way though...Skyshark kits are lazer cut.....TF are die cut. There's an example right there on how Skyshark might have been able to cut cost and increase revenue. Do away with the lazer cutting and die cut the kits. Yeah, it decreases overall kit quality somewhat but if thats what it takes to keep it going, thats what you do. TF kits are die cut and they are still selling. 20-30 minutes lazer cutting (educated guess) versus 2-3 minutes die cut. I'm going to take a wild guess that you could produce a hell of a lot more kits at far less cost, in far less time using a die-cut process versus lazer cutting.

Yes, TF is a much larger operation than Skyshark, but you do realize that TF was a very small business at one time too, dont you? There are a handful of things Skyshark could have done to keep in business and stay competitive in the kit manufacturing market....at least stay above water until the trend ramps back up toward kits again. Maybe to change a lot of their processes to stay competitive and keep with the changing trends just wasn't worth the hassle for them, I don't know.

Do I think they should not receive reimbursement for their work in producing a quality kit?? Of course not. TF is selling their kits at $150 a piece and they are still in business and get this....are making a profit on every kit they sell at that price, even with the growing trend of ARFs. If TF were not selling enough kits and/or making profit on them, they would discontinue their kit line. So how can TF be so successful with their kit line and Skyshark struggled, even with Skyshark producing the more quality kit??

If financial backing is an issue for Skyshark, then find avenues that will provide financial backing. Like I said in a previous post, better marketing could have helped them tremendously I think....ie...Tower Hobbies, etc... along with different manufacturing methods. However, if they were to sell kits through a large online hobby retailer such as Tower, there is no way in hell they would be able to keep up with a lazer cutting process.

skull1971

Here's a point that most of you all have seem to have missed. Mike and Angie DID NOT say they were going out of business!!! They said that they were not going to offer kits anymore, but were still going to supply quality hobby products.

Now, even I wrote, in the first 10 posts or so, that "The writing is on the wall." I am very sorry to see the kits go away, I had a FW-190 on my to do list someday, but i'm young and been around r/c all my life. I got the news letter from SS too, and Mike is a member of RCU, so I'm waiting to hear from him as to what the future holds for them, and us, the loyal customers.

da Rock

Maybe because they aren't going out of business.

Maybe they're just dumping the kit business.

But if they were into customer service bigtime, you would think they'd mention something in their own website. You know, inform their customers.

rustypep

My Feedback: (6)

I highly doubt Tower would carry Skyshark due to the relationship with Great Planes (aka Top Flite). Although Horizon might have been an option since they don't sell warbird kits. Hmmm....but then again the profit margin in it might not be attractive enough for them now.

Horizon has made a killing selling 60 size warbird ARF's while Tower watched that ship sail right out of the harbor.

OldScaleGuy

My Feedback: (2)

Sure Tower would carry Skyshark, or any other kit manufacturer they could get. For example they carry Goldberg and Sig. As long as they can buy low and sell high.... why not?

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Hmmm, did the BMW dealer sell you a car or a scale model of a Mercedes Gull Wing...but with Yugo wheels?

If I am going to pay a premium price for a "discriminating enthusiasts" scale model, the correct scale accessories should, at the very least, be available.
Its one thing to go out and buy a sport ARF (m3), and decide to Hop it up with after market bling (spinny wheels), its another to buy a "discriminating enthusiasts" scale kit and not be able to get the correct scale accessories without paying almost as much as the kit.

The BMW dealer gave you some options for your sport ARF. I wonder, if you had to go out and contract someone to custom machine the wheels you wanted, at 50 to 75% of the cost of what you just payed for the m3, would you have said "great deal, best way to go", or would you say "hmmm, no, for that additional cost I can get car with alot more features and wheels I happen to like"?

For me, if I am going to pay for a Ferrari, I expect more than an M3, say at least a Viper or a Corvette.

Nakajima

Last I checked, Skyshark offered scale (or close to scale) spinners. Apparently, you wanted a specialty 3 blade spinner instead of the industry standard 2 blade. Much like BMW offers industry standard wheels and radios with their vehicles. After all, they are in the business of manufacturing fine automobiles - not radios or custom wheels.

Your issue really has nothing to do with the quality of the kit. Most people use 2 blade props on their glow and gas engines and that seems to be what Skyshark provides with their kits. The real issue here is that you are too cheap to contact a custom spinner company and have your specialty spinner made for you. You really can't blame anyone but yourself for that!

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Actually, my issue was with the cost of the kit (after the increase). I said I don't think they were worth it. Others here tried to say that you have to pay a premium price for a premium kit. I simply pointed out the flaw(s) in that logic.


Much like the flaw in a two blade spinner being industry standard for a 3 blade scale bird.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that one will pay more for a quality product, I simply think they priced themselves out of the market.

I appreciate being called cheap however.

(by the way, I did contact an after market spinner manufacturer, thats how I know the 50-75% cost of the original kit cost )

LuftwaffeOberst

I Second that P-51B. I too believe they pushed themselves right out of the market with the prices. I however hope they continue there ARF and Parts Market. [sm=cool.gif]


Luftwaffe Oberst
Radio Aero Modelers Club
AMA District II
Pulaski, NY

Messerschmitt

My Feedback: (28)

I left my rubber waders somewhere ..... so I'll let it go on this one, but there is one thing from the conversation that I had with Mike Grey that I forgot to mention, he IS CONSIDERING doing special runs on kits, so CALL HIM, let him know what you want.

Fili

My collectors item Skyshark ME109g is now for sale for $1000, Take home today, fly tomorow. Act now so you dont forget, it slices, it dices, it even scales fish......

I built my SS last year and completely enjoyed the build. Right up to the price increase, I intended to build another SS kit. There were a few things that couldve been inproved, but she's great flyer and I'm very happy to have her in my hangar. It is a shame more folks dont, wont, or cant build, it's a great part of our hobby these folks miss out on. And now they wont get to enjoy a SS build.