Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
07-26-2007, 01:02 PM
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Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
Seeing Carver Tripp's great looking Top Flite GS Mustang in this thread [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/post.asp?do=reply&messageID=6159093&toStyle=tm]Carver Tripp's Mustang[/link] with his modified and much improved cowl shows that this area is the least accurate of an otherwise reasonably scale appearing Mustang. There are a couple of other areas that could be improved (the horizontal stab location, the canopy and the thickness of the top of the dorsal fiin), but they are not nearly so obvious as the cowl.
Late last year I started on the mold for a new cowl for the TF GS Mustang. The objectives were to (1) remove the droop and make the top cowl profile closer to scale (2) use a 5-1/2" spinner which is much closer to scale (3) improve the chin scoop appearance and (4) incorporate the cowl bulges over the forward valve covers. The cowl was designed to use the stock firewall although the engine would have to be raised 1/4" over the kit location.
I had originally hoped to have the cowl end just ahead of the windshield and break along the actual cowl lines so that iit could be fitted to all the GS kits - ARF / ARC and kit. The aft part of the cowl layup would be light transitioning to heaver over the engine bay. However I later discovered that the shape of the existing lower fuselage behind the firewall means the cowl will have to extend back past the leading edge of the wing. This unfortunately means it would be more than just a slide on accesssory for the ARF, thus reducing the sales potential.
I estimate this new cowl would add 4-6 ozs wt vs the TF cowl (I've been molding and kitting in fiberglass since the 60's so I think that's a reasonable estimate). The air filter hole locations would be molded into it as well as the major panel lines and the outline for the manifold cut outs.
About the time I found the problem with fairing the cowl into the fuselage I had foot surgery which kept me out of action until just recently. Now I need to decide if I want to go further with the project or not.
So my question is ... how many of you would be interested in a more to scale replacement cowl? If there isn't enough interest there's not much incentive in going ahead. I think the cost (with a custom fitted set of my scale exhaust manifolds) would be around $100 plus shipping. Perhaps a bit more.
If you have an interest, PM me. There's no obligation ... I just want to get a feeling for how much interest there is. At the same time feel free to post any suggestions or comments here
(The picture below shows the current state of the cowl plug which has the foward portion of the cowl plug roughed in - the extensions over the fuselage have yet to be added.)
Tony
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
Late last year I started on the mold for a new cowl for the TF GS Mustang. The objectives were to (1) remove the droop and make the top cowl profile closer to scale (2) use a 5-1/2" spinner which is much closer to scale (3) improve the chin scoop appearance and (4) incorporate the cowl bulges over the forward valve covers. The cowl was designed to use the stock firewall although the engine would have to be raised 1/4" over the kit location.
I had originally hoped to have the cowl end just ahead of the windshield and break along the actual cowl lines so that iit could be fitted to all the GS kits - ARF / ARC and kit. The aft part of the cowl layup would be light transitioning to heaver over the engine bay. However I later discovered that the shape of the existing lower fuselage behind the firewall means the cowl will have to extend back past the leading edge of the wing. This unfortunately means it would be more than just a slide on accesssory for the ARF, thus reducing the sales potential.
I estimate this new cowl would add 4-6 ozs wt vs the TF cowl (I've been molding and kitting in fiberglass since the 60's so I think that's a reasonable estimate). The air filter hole locations would be molded into it as well as the major panel lines and the outline for the manifold cut outs.
About the time I found the problem with fairing the cowl into the fuselage I had foot surgery which kept me out of action until just recently. Now I need to decide if I want to go further with the project or not.
So my question is ... how many of you would be interested in a more to scale replacement cowl? If there isn't enough interest there's not much incentive in going ahead. I think the cost (with a custom fitted set of my scale exhaust manifolds) would be around $100 plus shipping. Perhaps a bit more.
If you have an interest, PM me. There's no obligation ... I just want to get a feeling for how much interest there is. At the same time feel free to post any suggestions or comments here
(The picture below shows the current state of the cowl plug which has the foward portion of the cowl plug roughed in - the extensions over the fuselage have yet to be added.)
Tony
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
07-26-2007, 03:10 PM
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RE: Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
Gary, I appreciate your comments ...
But have you actually seen one of my exhaust kits up close ? They're more accurate than anything else I know of on the market. It would take someone of at least your skills to replicate them as well.
There's a couple of reasons for the additional cost over and above the exhaust kit. Most of the commerical cowls are quite a bit shorter than this one. And those I've seen from the suppliers have a less sophisticated layup than I would want to use. Carefull layups and bigger pieces take more time. And I don't see this cowl as having a large market.
There's a also significant investment - both time and money - making the plug from scratch and making molds, creating and having laser cut any extra parts (like a support eyebrow at the top of the firewall), writing instructions, billing costs, answering all the e-mails, etc. All of that has to be amortized into the final cost.
On the other hand if it's too expensive so that not enough modelers are interested - well, that's what I need to find out. Sounds like a 'no' from you - right? <grin>
Tony
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
But have you actually seen one of my exhaust kits up close ? They're more accurate than anything else I know of on the market. It would take someone of at least your skills to replicate them as well.
There's a couple of reasons for the additional cost over and above the exhaust kit. Most of the commerical cowls are quite a bit shorter than this one. And those I've seen from the suppliers have a less sophisticated layup than I would want to use. Carefull layups and bigger pieces take more time. And I don't see this cowl as having a large market.
There's a also significant investment - both time and money - making the plug from scratch and making molds, creating and having laser cut any extra parts (like a support eyebrow at the top of the firewall), writing instructions, billing costs, answering all the e-mails, etc. All of that has to be amortized into the final cost.
On the other hand if it's too expensive so that not enough modelers are interested - well, that's what I need to find out. Sounds like a 'no' from you - right? <grin>
Tony
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
07-26-2007, 05:02 PM
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RE: Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
Tony I have a question. When I built my GS TF P-51 I modified the top and sides of the front of the fuse. I had to redraw the plans and make new formers to bring it to a better scale look. Do you do any such thing with your new cowl? Thanks.
07-26-2007, 05:18 PM
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RE: Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
Bob
Good question ...
The idea was to have an extended cowl create all the contour changes. A small C shaped eyebrow support on the top and bottom of the existing firewall would support the cowl at those locations (the cowl is the same width as the existing fuselage). As I envisioned it, the cowl could either be permanently attached to the fuselage with a hatch cutout for access to the engine or it would be removed as a single piece.
Probably the best looking would be to fasten it down and fair it into the fuselage.
I'll upload a diagram shortly that may make more sense.
Tony
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
Good question ...
The idea was to have an extended cowl create all the contour changes. A small C shaped eyebrow support on the top and bottom of the existing firewall would support the cowl at those locations (the cowl is the same width as the existing fuselage). As I envisioned it, the cowl could either be permanently attached to the fuselage with a hatch cutout for access to the engine or it would be removed as a single piece.
Probably the best looking would be to fasten it down and fair it into the fuselage.
I'll upload a diagram shortly that may make more sense.
Tony
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
07-27-2007, 11:01 AM
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RE: Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
I'd be interested. I've been wanting to build a TF GS Mustang RTC, but the cowl has always put me off. $100 isn't too unfair IMO. And if your still looking for opinions, I like your idea to build the cowl into the fuse and have an access hatch fo the engine. I think that's what I understand from one of your earlier posts, anyways.
07-27-2007, 11:48 AM
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RE: Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
You've got it right. Making the engine hatch the builder's responsibility seems at this point to make more sense since there are so many engine / muffler options to accommodate. At least that's my thinking at this point.
Tony
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
Tony
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
07-27-2007, 08:23 PM
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RE: Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
HEY TONY I WOULD BE INTERESTED , I HAVE A COUPLE TOP FLITE MUSTANGS ALREADY DONE BUT I WOULD PURCHASE ANOTHER JUST SO I COULD USE YOUR COWL. MAKE IT AND THEY WILL BUY!!!!
THANKS BOB
THANKS BOB
08-02-2007, 11:50 PM
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RE: Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
ORIGINAL: tony-howard
About the time I found the problem with fairing the cowl into the fuselage I had foot surgery which kept me out of action until just recently. Now I need to decide if I want to go further with the project or not.
So my question is ... how many of you would be interested in a more to scale replacement cowl? If there isn't enough interest there's not much incentive in going ahead. I think the cost (with a custom fitted set of my scale exhaust manifolds) would be around $100 plus shipping. Perhaps a bit more.
Tony
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
About the time I found the problem with fairing the cowl into the fuselage I had foot surgery which kept me out of action until just recently. Now I need to decide if I want to go further with the project or not.
So my question is ... how many of you would be interested in a more to scale replacement cowl? If there isn't enough interest there's not much incentive in going ahead. I think the cost (with a custom fitted set of my scale exhaust manifolds) would be around $100 plus shipping. Perhaps a bit more.
Tony
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
As is typical with good ideas, people think of them at the same time. I started the exact same project about 2 years ago and then ran into some work related challenges on my day job and didn't get it on the market. It is back to the front of the list and I will likely introduce it this fall. From the pictures you can see that the cowl plug needs just one more primer coat and then a wet sanding before it is ready to make the mold. It is built to the 5.5" spinner and has a much more scale intake and more pronounced bulges at the top for the engine rocker covers. I spent a long time contemplating the scale split line locations and multiple thickness of laminate as you describe. I finally settled on that approach being expensive and not practical for the TF level model. This design will fit-up flush to the existing firewall of both ARF and ARC TF Kits. It will have a knotched back edge with a glassed on plywood perimeter that will be permanently bonded to the firewall. Engine access will be a removable access panel from the bottom that will be stepped in much like the Yellow Spitfire Cowl Conversion Kit I make today. To do this compromises had to be made to mesh-up with the dead flat side walls and the bottom blend moving down toward the wing has a slightly uncomfortable transition to it, but it works. Let's not lose sight of what we are doing here. We are dressing-up a TF Mustang. So it will always be less than perfect. We are not building a $2,700 Aero-Tech. In addition to the cowl I am doing a drop-on "A", "B", "C" style razor back made of fiberglass that works with the stab moved up to scale position. So all in all we are on parallel paths here. I've already made the decision to do it. So if you go for it as well then we will just cut each others volume in half, or you could possibly do the longer extended version you mention to pick-up the scale split lines and more properly shaped lower portion thus our products would be differentiated from each other. It is your choice. I can tell you that I have no plans to do any exhausts, so I should probably scribe the cut-outs to match the exhausts you make. I did talk to Calvin over at KELEO about scale exhausts, but now I have gone a little cold on that because of the complications it presents and the need to cut out part of the firewall near the back to get them installed correctly. I cannot see many TF type modelers doing that. So it will be very interesting to see what you think. The best to you in your pursuits. This certainly is a good idea.
Leo Spychalla
Spychalla Aircraft LLC
08-03-2007, 12:13 PM
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RE: Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
Leo
Shortly after I started thinking about this project I came across your cowl threadl. Very nice – thanks for posting the pictures of your cowl plug.
We are – as you say – on different paths for improving the cowl appearance. I realized early on that projecting the fuselage lines forward of the firewall can only result in a partial scale improvement, particularly in the area of the lower half of the cowl. I ultimately decided after a lot of sketching and mock-ups that making the cowl a slip-on unit extending aft past the firewall is the only way bring the forward cowl profile lines and contours as close to scale as possible. Raising the thrust line in addition to the larger spinner then removed any suggestion of that awful TF 'hooked nose'. (Now if we could only get the spinner makers to make a truly scale Mustang spinner.)
The question of what improvements model builders are willing to pay for is the issue. When I look at the number of online thread postings showing the interest in scale modifications, it appears there is a definite interest by some in improving the scale appearance of the Top Flite GS Mustang. And I've had a number of PM's showing interest in my cowl. The number of exhaust kits I've sold to the TF GS Mustang seems to support that conclusion as well. So I think there is at least a limited market.
I will make my decision next week whether to proceed or not. I have one other advantage and it's that I'm retired. So I have control over my priorities – at least when my wife doesn't provide me with some!
Let's keep in touch. And good luck to you.
Tony Howard
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
Shortly after I started thinking about this project I came across your cowl threadl. Very nice – thanks for posting the pictures of your cowl plug.
We are – as you say – on different paths for improving the cowl appearance. I realized early on that projecting the fuselage lines forward of the firewall can only result in a partial scale improvement, particularly in the area of the lower half of the cowl. I ultimately decided after a lot of sketching and mock-ups that making the cowl a slip-on unit extending aft past the firewall is the only way bring the forward cowl profile lines and contours as close to scale as possible. Raising the thrust line in addition to the larger spinner then removed any suggestion of that awful TF 'hooked nose'. (Now if we could only get the spinner makers to make a truly scale Mustang spinner.)
The question of what improvements model builders are willing to pay for is the issue. When I look at the number of online thread postings showing the interest in scale modifications, it appears there is a definite interest by some in improving the scale appearance of the Top Flite GS Mustang. And I've had a number of PM's showing interest in my cowl. The number of exhaust kits I've sold to the TF GS Mustang seems to support that conclusion as well. So I think there is at least a limited market.
I will make my decision next week whether to proceed or not. I have one other advantage and it's that I'm retired. So I have control over my priorities – at least when my wife doesn't provide me with some!
Let's keep in touch. And good luck to you.
Tony Howard
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
08-03-2007, 12:56 PM
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RE: Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
Tony,
I think this is all good. I agree with you regarding what it takes to make a truly scale nose on the TF Mustang. You essentially have to cover the whole thing up well back onto the fuse. As you know, that's just not my goal. What I am creating will make the nose look say 80% better than it does, what you are after is a full 100% improvement. So we move forward. I will send you an e-mail and order some of your exhaust pipes so they can be considered as an option in the installation of my cowl.
Leo
I think this is all good. I agree with you regarding what it takes to make a truly scale nose on the TF Mustang. You essentially have to cover the whole thing up well back onto the fuse. As you know, that's just not my goal. What I am creating will make the nose look say 80% better than it does, what you are after is a full 100% improvement. So we move forward. I will send you an e-mail and order some of your exhaust pipes so they can be considered as an option in the installation of my cowl.
Leo
08-03-2007, 04:12 PM
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RE: Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
Tony and Leo, I love my Mustang and as long as T/F keeps making the RTC, I will always have one. I'm on my second one now. I was even thinking about building another one just so I would have two of them. (at the same time)
I don't care much for the stock cowl either . So yes, I would be intrested in a new cowl.
And Leo, the B conversion will be nice also. Any plans on a reno style canopy and turtledeck.
Probubly wouldn't be much intrest in that. (but, I would buy one.)
I don't care much for the stock cowl either . So yes, I would be intrested in a new cowl.
And Leo, the B conversion will be nice also. Any plans on a reno style canopy and turtledeck.
Probubly wouldn't be much intrest in that. (but, I would buy one.)
08-10-2007, 03:13 AM
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RE: Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
Heeeeeeeeyyyyyyyyy,Tonyyyyyy, so whats the word ,have you decided to go ahead with the cowl? Because you know I want one.
And if you read this Leo,Any time frame on that fiberglass razerback section? Will the section be long enough to put the elevators in the right position? Or will it stop at the last former.
thanks guy's
Joe
And if you read this Leo,Any time frame on that fiberglass razerback section? Will the section be long enough to put the elevators in the right position? Or will it stop at the last former.
thanks guy's
Joe
08-10-2007, 11:05 AM
#16
RE: Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
Hi All
With all due respect:
I think optional parts should give the option to purchase what one may want, and not make additional accessories part of the main item, which results in added cost..
Imagine, if your cowl takes damage, does one have to buy another set of headers if they want the your cowl again. The spinner and cowl are one of the most damaged of all items on our models.
Just my opinion
Steve
With all due respect:
I think optional parts should give the option to purchase what one may want, and not make additional accessories part of the main item, which results in added cost..
Imagine, if your cowl takes damage, does one have to buy another set of headers if they want the your cowl again. The spinner and cowl are one of the most damaged of all items on our models.
Just my opinion
Steve
08-10-2007, 11:17 AM
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RE: Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
Joey - I have decided to go ahead with the cowl development. I've done a bit of work on it the last couple of days in between working on other projects.
Steve - a good point and one that I should have thought to mention. Yes - the cowl alone will be available.
Tony
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
Steve - a good point and one that I should have thought to mention. Yes - the cowl alone will be available.
Tony
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
08-11-2007, 08:45 AM
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RE: Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
Ken
It's too early to set a firm timeframe yet. The unknown is finishing the plug. Once that's done I'll have a better idea of when I can start turning out cowls. I'll post pictures here as I progress.
Keep prodding me and I'll keep pedaling as fast as I can!
Tony
It's too early to set a firm timeframe yet. The unknown is finishing the plug. Once that's done I'll have a better idea of when I can start turning out cowls. I'll post pictures here as I progress.
Keep prodding me and I'll keep pedaling as fast as I can!
Tony
08-22-2007, 02:41 PM
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RE: Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
Scalebirdman
You might want to contact Leo directly - I'm not sure how often he looks in here.
If you do get one of his cowls, let me know if you need a good scale exhaust system for it. Leo has offered to send me a cowl to make up one of my exhaust kits specifically for it.
FWIW my Top Flight GS Mustang cowl plug is in the final shaping stages prior to glassing and final detailing.
Tony
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
You might want to contact Leo directly - I'm not sure how often he looks in here.
If you do get one of his cowls, let me know if you need a good scale exhaust system for it. Leo has offered to send me a cowl to make up one of my exhaust kits specifically for it.
FWIW my Top Flight GS Mustang cowl plug is in the final shaping stages prior to glassing and final detailing.
Tony
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
09-27-2007, 03:00 PM
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RE: Improving the TF GS Mustang Cowl
Finally I'm getting close to getting plug for the new cowl done. It's taking much longer than I expected due to a set back or two and other commitments. In the pictures below is the cowl with its first coat of primer. With a single color now the areas that need improvement are easier to see than when the cowl was multiple colors. And there are a couple of areas that need work - including around the lip of the intake where it meets the underside of the spinner. Overall it's showing promise of what I had in mind.
(One of the major delays is less painful now than it was at the time. I was sanding the bare foam filler areas with the fuselage next to my bench. I reached over to get a different piece of sandpaper and knocked over an open can of acetone ... some of which splashed onto the bare foam. The result was truly ugly. It took a day to get my cheerful disposition back so I could start patching the new holes (there were a lot of them!). You can bet as soon as I could the foam areas got glassed. AND I now put all my solvents away when I'm done with them.)
Still no time frame for kits ... I'm working on it most every day.
Tony
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
www.pacific-scaled-aircraft
(One of the major delays is less painful now than it was at the time. I was sanding the bare foam filler areas with the fuselage next to my bench. I reached over to get a different piece of sandpaper and knocked over an open can of acetone ... some of which splashed onto the bare foam. The result was truly ugly. It took a day to get my cheerful disposition back so I could start patching the new holes (there were a lot of them!). You can bet as soon as I could the foam areas got glassed. AND I now put all my solvents away when I'm done with them.)
Still no time frame for kits ... I'm working on it most every day.
Tony
Pacific Scaled Aircraft
www.pacific-scaled-aircraft