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Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures

Old 09-04-2007, 06:11 AM
  #1  
Johnnie Red
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Default Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures

Dear all,

On Sunday I have made a flight with my Giant TF P-47. It is powered by a ZDZ60 with Binks carb. Everything went all right in the preflightchecks but unfortunately the bird (weights 35 pounds) had suffered engine failure and was forced to a quite heavy landing. This resulted in breaking 3 blades of the 4 blade Soloprop and one destroyed robostrut. I suppose that it is a minimal damge if you think that the engine failure happened downwind and thank god I landed it by applying the flaps and retracts litterally the last minute...
Did any body else faced problems with the ZDZ and the Binks carb? One think to mention is that the carb is not setting up like the rest of the gassers (walbro etc.) The setting is as follow: The high RPM valve is almost closed and the other valve is 2 turns from full open.
Did anybody replaced the carb with another one? Or the ZDZ is not working properly?
I am a user of 3W, US41, and I didn't face any troubles at all up to know. I am looking of your help in decimating my problem the best way possible.
Best regards to all
Johnnie Red.
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Old 09-04-2007, 06:34 AM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures

beautiful plane especially with the 4 blade solo props. Is this your 1st flight with that ngine and prop combo?
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Old 09-04-2007, 07:57 AM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures

Hey Ram-bro,

Thanks for your comment. Yes it is the first time that the plane flies with the Soloprop. The solo's work fine with other planes and engines so I think that this is not the issue. The ZDZ 60 that I own has a Binks carb, and I think that this is the problem. While it is running ok on the ground - and this is something that the engine did before turning a zinger 22X10 2 blade, - stops, just stalls in full throttle suddenly in flight....This is a frequent habbit of the ZDZ....she did it more than 5 times now with different props...So we thought that it might be a problem on the custom exaust so this time we have opened a bigger exaust for thye fumes....I suppose that this was not the problem simply because the engine stalled again.....and sent me directly to "change my pants" LOL.....Anyway...I hope for a cure or I will swap to a 3W 80cc.
BR
J.R.
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Old 09-04-2007, 01:06 PM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures

Hi Jonnie,

Off topic I know but I wanted to compliment you on your craftsmanship, WOW, what a beauty! How long did the build take you? Oh yeah, and by the way good luck finding the answer to your problem.
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Old 09-04-2007, 05:55 PM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures

Are you running the engine without a cowel so it gets enough air to cool correctly? Usually the reason a engine quits in the air is lack of fuel. I might change out the carb to one you know functions correctly.
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Old 09-04-2007, 06:39 PM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures

You may be getting pressure pulses inside the cowling. They can mess up the pump on the carb since it works by having a pressure differential from inside the engine to ambient. If ambient keeps changing it won't work right. There is a fix shown somewhere, can't remember where, to use a fitting attached to the vent hole on the carb and routinga piece of tubing into the fuse where there will be no pressure changes. Aparently this can happen to any pump type carb under the right conditions. There are many things that could have gone wrong just one more thing to check.
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Old 09-04-2007, 07:50 PM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures

maybe a velocity stack maybe needed. That maybe an inexpensive try 1st
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Old 09-05-2007, 01:06 AM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures

I've never heard of a Binks Carb, so I can't help there, but it sounds to me like it's overheating.
Maybe from being lean or not enough air getting out of the cowl. Make sure you have 3 times the air out as in.
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Old 09-05-2007, 06:53 AM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures

Binks carbs are not quiet as reliable as Walbro or Tillotson in my experience. The needle valve settings you describe would lead to an overheating problem. The Hi speed needle being too lean. Try opening the Lo speed out 1 1/2 turns and then do the same for the Hi speed... That's a good place to start. If you get too far off from these settings (say 1/2 a turn open on the Hi) then there is a problem with the carb that needs to be examined.
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Old 09-05-2007, 09:35 AM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures

that is too nice a bird for a balky motor put a zenoah g62 in it you will be happy. i never touched the needles in 3 years. Velocity stack may help. what i do is have a hatch right over the carb thats magnetic. When flying i remove it to work the choke and fly. You cant see the small hole in the air and the carb will get enough air
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Old 09-05-2007, 01:07 PM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures

I'd recommend moving this thread to the gas engine forum and also doing a search there on the Binks carb. I think there have been prior threads on this carb that may have helpful information. Also, having the high needle almost all the way in and the low needle at 2 turns does not sound right. I believe that Ralph and others have stated generally that the high needle shouldn't be less than one turn in. Perhaps set both at 1.5 turns and try re-tuning. There are many ways of tuning and I do not profess to be an expert at it, but the following has worked well for me: starting with both needles 1.5 turns out, start the engine and let it warm up for a minute at various rpms. Then I set the throttle so that the engine is running about 2500-3000 rpms and lean the low needle until the rpms peak. Then I return the throttle to idle and check the transition from low to middle/high rpms. Sometimes I need to lower the throttle trim a click or two because it will idle higher after leaning the low needle. Then I put the engine to full throttle, peak the high needle to max rpm and back off a very slight amount. Then I check the engine response at various rpms to make sure everything is ok. Make sure to let the engine get warm and run a little on the ground and double check the transition from low rpms to higher rpms. If it hesitates or dies, the low end can be richened a tiny amount and try again. The last thing you want is for the engine to die if you apply power on landing to go around.

Hope this helps. Let us know how it works out.

Ed B.
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Old 09-06-2007, 06:54 AM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures


ORIGINAL: blueline

Hi Jonnie,

Off topic I know but I wanted to compliment you on your craftsmanship, WOW, what a beauty! How long did the build take you? Oh yeah, and by the way good luck finding the answer to your problem.
Hey blueline,

Thanks a lot of your nice words. The project took 8 months to be finished. Looking foreword to hearing from you with your nice projects!
BR
J.R.
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Old 09-06-2007, 07:02 AM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures


ORIGINAL: Taildrager

Are you running the engine without a cowel so it gets enough air to cool correctly? Usually the reason a engine quits in the air is lack of fuel. I might change out the carb to one you know functions correctly.
Hey Taildrager,

Thanks for your tips. It must be the carb that ZDZ is using. The needle valves are not functioning properly. I'll change the carb to a brand new Walbro and I'll keep you guys posted.

BR
J.R.
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Old 09-06-2007, 07:04 AM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures


ORIGINAL: lrb75

You may be getting pressure pulses inside the cowling. They can mess up the pump on the carb since it works by having a pressure differential from inside the engine to ambient. If ambient keeps changing it won't work right. There is a fix shown somewhere, can't remember where, to use a fitting attached to the vent hole on the carb and routinga piece of tubing into the fuse where there will be no pressure changes. Aparently this can happen to any pump type carb under the right conditions. There are many things that could have gone wrong just one more thing to check.
Hey lrb75

I must admit that this is a very logical explanation. I'll check on this and I'll come back to you with news.

BR
J.R.
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Old 09-06-2007, 07:10 AM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures


ORIGINAL: Ram-bro

maybe a velocity stack maybe needed. That maybe an inexpensive try 1st
Hey Ram-bro,
You are right that in most puzzles the answer is there and still I am looking elsewhere!!
Thanks for the tip mite! Checked..still the problem is there. I must admit that I 've been unlucky so far to eliminate it. I'll try a Walbro and if the problem insist then I' ll look into the matter with the perception of lrb75. Thanks for everything man!
BR
J.R.
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Old 09-06-2007, 07:12 AM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures


ORIGINAL: Thunderbolt47

I've never heard of a Binks Carb, so I can't help there, but it sounds to me like it's overheating.
Maybe from being lean or not enough air getting out of the cowl. Make sure you have 3 times the air out as in.
Hey Thunderbolt47

The carb is BING's ... The problem is in the mix...and I think that I will solve it pretty soon by using a new Walbro. I'll keep you posted.
Thanks for the tip.
BR
J.R.
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Old 09-06-2007, 07:20 AM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures


ORIGINAL: BobH

Binks carbs are not quiet as reliable as Walbro or Tillotson in my experience. The needle valve settings you describe would lead to an overheating problem. The Hi speed needle being too lean. Try opening the Lo speed out 1 1/2 turns and then do the same for the Hi speed... That's a good place to start. If you get too far off from these settings (say 1/2 a turn open on the Hi) then there is a problem with the carb that needs to be examined.
Hey BobH

I'd agree to that! Bing's carbs are not as reliable as the Walbro's....! I have tried all the possible settings but the carb worked correct on the ground, only with the settings that I have mentioned. In the ordinary settings the engine stalled because it did'nt have good mixture while I was applying more throttle. As a result I think that the needle valves aren't accurate and in the system must be a drain ...so air is coming in from the valves...
I have come to the idea to use a new Walbro so I think that the problem will be overruned. Thanks for the tips my friend!
BR
J.R.
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Old 09-06-2007, 07:30 AM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures

ORIGINAL: timothy thompson

that is too nice a bird for a balky motor put a zenoah g62 in it you will be happy. i never touched the needles in 3 years. Velocity stack may help. what i do is have a hatch right over the carb thats magnetic. When flying i remove it to work the choke and fly. You cant see the small hole in the air and the carb will get enough air
Hey timothy thompson
First of all I would like to congradulate you for your very nice work on your F4U! Well done my friend!!!!
You are right about the Zenoah G62.....I have one at my Byron Hellcat. Zenoah is using a Walbro carb. (That is the reason that you do not go around with a screwdriver on your hand!) LOL..! The reason that I have put a ZDZ is that it is more powerfull and would turn a 22X10 4blade Soloprop in 4000RPM which is enough power for my 35 pounds P-47. I think that I have made a mistake now, cause even with the ZDZ I do not have enough thrust....( I need more speed), and later I am thinking to put a 3W 80cc which will turn easier 24X10 4 blade solo and will have more scale looks together with better handling ( with a little more speed, when needed). The Idea for the small hole is very nice. Thanks for the tip with the magnetic hatch.
Stay well
J.R.
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Old 09-06-2007, 07:35 AM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures

If your engine is overheating, or you don't have enough cooling air, you may be experiencing vapar lock. I had a Zenoah G62 that quit twice on me, and that was the culprit. So do change out the carb, but don't forget to check to see that you have adequate airflow over the engine and out of the cowl!
Sam
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Old 09-06-2007, 07:39 AM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures


ORIGINAL: Flyfast1

I'd recommend moving this thread to the gas engine forum and also doing a search there on the Binks carb. I think there have been prior threads on this carb that may have helpful information. Also, having the high needle almost all the way in and the low needle at 2 turns does not sound right. I believe that Ralph and others have stated generally that the high needle shouldn't be less than one turn in. Perhaps set both at 1.5 turns and try re-tuning. There are many ways of tuning and I do not profess to be an expert at it, but the following has worked well for me: starting with both needles 1.5 turns out, start the engine and let it warm up for a minute at various rpms. Then I set the throttle so that the engine is running about 2500-3000 rpms and lean the low needle until the rpms peak. Then I return the throttle to idle and check the transition from low to middle/high rpms. Sometimes I need to lower the throttle trim a click or two because it will idle higher after leaning the low needle. Then I put the engine to full throttle, peak the high needle to max rpm and back off a very slight amount. Then I check the engine response at various rpms to make sure everything is ok. Make sure to let the engine get warm and run a little on the ground and double check the transition from low rpms to higher rpms. If it hesitates or dies, the low end can be richened a tiny amount and try again. The last thing you want is for the engine to die if you apply power on landing to go around.

Hope this helps. Let us know how it works out.

Ed B.
Hey Ed B.

You mention that you are not an expert in tuning the engines but in my opinion is that you are, or at least you know what you are doing. Yes that is exactly how I tune my engines as well! Thanks for the tip cause I couldn't say better than you have stated all the necessary for the finest tuning. I will change the damned Bing's carb and I'll let you know how it will be. I'll come back with more pics, or maybe a video at youtube.
Thank you very much for your tips and your time. You are also right about the reliabitlity that we all need for an aborted landing and a go around pattern.
B.R.
J.R.
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Old 09-06-2007, 07:43 AM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures


ORIGINAL: DaddySam

If your engine is overheating, or you don't have enough cooling air, you may be experiencing vapar lock. I had a Zenoah G62 that quit twice on me, and that was the culprit. So do change out the carb, but don't forget to check to see that you have adequate airflow over the engine and out of the cowl!
Sam
Hey DaddySam,

That is obviously something that has to be also checked!
Thanks for the tip. I'll come back to you with the first results this weekend.
B.R.
J.R.
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Old 09-06-2007, 07:19 PM
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Default RE: Giant Top Flite P-47 Thunderbolt frequent Engine failures


ORIGINAL: Johnnie Red


ORIGINAL: Thunderbolt47

I've never heard of a Binks Carb, so I can't help there, but it sounds to me like it's overheating.
Maybe from being lean or not enough air getting out of the cowl. Make sure you have 3 times the air out as in.




Hey Thunderbolt47

The carb is BING's ... The problem is in the mix...and I think that I will solve it pretty soon by using a new Walbro. I'll keep you posted.
Thanks for the tip.
BR
J.R.

See I told you I had never heard of them. Hope you find the problem.
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