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New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

Old 12-17-2007, 11:41 PM
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sevans16
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Default New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

Has anyone seen or heard of this plane? I see it coming soon on Tower and I am able to add it to the cart on the Sig site? I like it. It is nice to see something a little different as this one does not have the bubble canopy like most Mustang ARF's.
Old 12-19-2007, 02:25 PM
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mike early
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

Not sure how new it is, but it looks like a great plane.
It appears the retracts come pre-installed.

The B version has the standard cockpit canopy....the later models had the bubble.
Old 12-19-2007, 04:32 PM
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

I have one on order. They are not due out until mid January. The P51A through C models all used the older P40 type canopies. They were later changed the the bubble in the D and later models. Visibility was the only means of finding your enemy back then without radar, so the bubble was a huge advantage for our pilots. I still like the old style canopies
Old 12-19-2007, 05:44 PM
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

Actually thats not true. The B and C models were also fitted with the Malcolm Hood style canopies.
Old 12-19-2007, 06:46 PM
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

That's true, kind of in between the two types. Some of the B's and all of the C's I think.
Old 12-20-2007, 01:31 AM
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bmustang
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

The "Malcolm Hood" was not installed at North American Aviation's factories, it was a field modification done by the ground crews in Britain. (If it were American, it would be called a "canopy"; "hood" is a British term.) The British Malcolm company manufactured them originally as an "after market mod" for the Mustang III (RAF version of the P51B/C) and some found their way into American hands (I've even seen a pic of an earlier Allison-engined Mustang that got one) but the Malcolm company did not have the production capacity to outfit the large number of American AND British Mustangs in service, thus it fell to the manufacturer to do something about this. NAA basically went them one better and developed the bubble canopy with full 360 degree visibility.

Jmohn, I favor the earlier style too - for my modeling purposes, there is no particular point in doing the "latest and greatest" version of what is a vintage airplane anyway. I simply like the old greenhouse style better. Perhaps it just strikes me as more evocative of the style and era of the propeller driven figher where the bubble seems to be already looking ahead to the jet age. I've pretty much decided that, while there are more Mustangs in my future, I've done my last bubble version.
Old 12-20-2007, 11:24 AM
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

bmustang,

I also like the early WWII fighters. The P40, P39, P51B and Hurricane are my favorites. I also like the Hellcat, Corsair and others, but they have been done to death Something cool about those bird cage canopies!
Old 12-20-2007, 01:11 PM
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oriole
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

I emailed Tower Hobbies to see if they would be selling and they they replied with the following:


"We do have an order pending with Sig to receive the P51B ARF, but we do not know when the item will be coming into stock."

So you maybe able to do better in price ordering through them, using their ad coupons.

Oriole
Old 12-20-2007, 02:09 PM
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Evil_Merlin
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

it really doesn't matter if they were not fitted at the factory or not. The whole point is the B/C models got the Malcolm Hood and it a rather good quantity at that. Many 8th and 9th Air Force P-51B/C fighters got the hood. In fact the Malcolm hood was so common on the Mustang III that the Brits actually released a Flight Manual Pilots Notes on it, AP 2025G (& H)-PN from June of 1944

What most people DON'T know is the Malcolm Hood fitted Mustangs are/were considered to be the best dog fighter of all the WW2 Mustangs. Other than the gun jamming issue (caused by the mounting of the twin .50s per wing), the P-51 B/C with the Malcolm hood offered better visibility, lower weight, slightly faster, slightly better handling and suffered from none of the structural problems which impacted the D due to the modified wing design. The P-51 B/C was also more forgiving when flying close to the edge of the flight envelope and was easier to recover when it departed the envelope.

Let us not forget the Brits actually gave North American the idea of fitting the tear drop to the back of the D, when they fitted the canopy from a Hawker Tempest to the 'Stang.
Old 12-24-2007, 01:58 PM
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bmustang
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

Jmohn, I also prefer the razorback Thunderbolt to the bubble version and I've flown just a couple of P40s but both flew really well. The design seems to lend itself to a really nice flying model.

I am too slow a builder to do one of every airplane I like, so I pick my absolute favorites to work on and then vicariously enjoy watching the ones others build and bring to the field!

Merlin, I liked what you wrote about the Malcolm hooded B/C version's dogfighting abilities, and there is some strong support for that point of view. Kit Carson of the 357th FG said in his book, "Persue and Destroy" that he preferred the "B" for the very reasons you mentioned and Lee Archer of the famous Tuskegee Airmen hung on to his "C" until his commander, Col. Benjamin O. Davis, ordered him to get rid of it. The Tuskegee Airmen in the 15th Air Force in Italy did not even have access to the Malcolm hoods and Archer still liked the C better. Both Archer and Carson felt the B/C was a more stable gun platform and Carson also pointed out that four 50's was quite adequate for destroying an enemy aircraft and if you couldn't hit him with 4 guns, 6 wouldn't make your aim any better.

One additional snippet about the cockpit visibility problem came in a "pilot report" in one of the popular full-size aviation mags some years ago when the writer, who had time in P51D's, had an opportunity to fly one of the rare B's that had recently been restored to flying condition. He said the seat was about 6" lower than in a D making the viz even worse than just the obstruction from the small windows and large framing made it. A seat cushion would not help either, since his head almost touched the top of the canopy anyway. I don't know if that 6" dimension was an actual measurement or if that was just his off-the-cuff impression, but I'm sure it's true that the seat was noticably lower. The original design team was striving for minimal frontal area in keeping with their design goals of maximum efficiency.

There were some mysterious fatal crashes of some of the early D models to arrive in-theater that turned out to be caused by a bug related to the revised wing design. Once found, it was promptly corrected. There are a number of subtle differences between the B and the D besides the obvious ones of the canopy and rear fuselage; the wing leading edge extensions (crank), and the gear doors, for example. It seems to me that the wing changes must have been related to an increase in the thickness of the airfoil among other things, in order to allow the guns to be mounted upright instead of canted like in the B/C wing. I never came across a mention of a different airfoil, yet NAA must have had to change it for the guns.

BTW, most of the folks reading this thread probably know this already, but just in case any missed this item, the P51B and P51C were really the same airplane, built to the same spec; they were given the different sub-variant designations only based on where they were built, the B at the Inglewood, Ca plant and the C at the Dallas Tx plant. About the only reliable way to tell a B from a C is by the serial number. Yes, there were some slight variations in the published performance data (speeds, etc.) as each version went through its own test flight program but probably no more difference than you would expect from individual examples coming off the same assembly line.
Old 01-03-2008, 05:42 PM
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jmohn
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

Just got an e-mail from Sig. They will be shipping the P51B tomorrow or Monday. Can't wait to get it!!!
Old 01-03-2008, 05:46 PM
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

Damn Now I'm going to have to order one...
Old 01-04-2008, 06:15 AM
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

Hey Guys, enjoyed the little history lesson. I've never really been up to speed on the B/C version. However, I still prefer the D.

Nice change/plane. Wish it were bigger.

Mustangs rule!!
Old 01-07-2008, 04:46 PM
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Mike Gretz
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

I really enjoyed the history lesson too. It's good to know that there are R/Cers out there who appreciate the old P-51 B/C and it's role in winning WWII.

Attached is a pdf file of four pages of P-51B history that I wrote for the instruction manual that will be included with the new SIG P-51B ARF ... just to fire you up a little more.

BTW, she flies GREAT! After a number of years of flying slower 4-strokes and electrics, it felt really good when I flew the SIG prototype for the first time. It felt as comfortable as an old shoe ... like one of those great old pattern planes I used to fly in the 1970s-80s. On rails!! In fact, it flies just like the best airplane I ever flew! No kidding.

Low flybys with the wheels up are a real gas! No wonder Don Gentile couldn't resist (read the article).
As an old flying buddy used to tell me; "Put the wheels up and kick her in the a**s!"
That's Mustang flying at its best.

Mike Gretz
SIG Mfg Co
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
By76576.pdf (317.4 KB, 17 views)
Old 01-07-2008, 04:58 PM
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jmohn
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

Mike,

That's a great article on the P51B and Don's exploits. Very cool piece of history!

Can't wait to get mine. I am planning on putting an E-flight Power 60 in it. It should be plenty of power at 1200 to 1400 watts. What retracts are recommended for the plane? I was thinking about some Spring Air mains, but could go with mechanical if they work well?

Did you guys start shipping them


Jeff
Old 01-07-2008, 05:54 PM
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

This is a beautiful bird!!

I would go electric as well with a AXI 4130/16 6S LiPo setup. (since I already have the stuff on hand)
Just wondering why it's being refered to as a 90-100 size when the weight is down around what would be a .60-.75 size setup. Is the .90-100 referencing a 4 stroke?
Old 01-07-2008, 05:54 PM
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

I too love the early model birds with the birdcage canopy. I was really interested in the new Top Flite P-51 untill I saw this one. I like this one MUCH better. I just wish SIG would put thier manuals online so you could better prepair for a build.
Old 01-07-2008, 06:06 PM
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jmohn
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

I have used the Power 60 in planes up to 10 lbs. with good sucess. I currently have one in my 10 lb. Tucano and it's great. I am getting 1400 watts peak using a 16-12 prop. I am pushing the motor a little, but it should be fine as long as I don't hold full throttle for too long. Otherwise a 16-10 prop is just perfect with a 6S pack. I get 1200 watts which is plenty for an 8 lb. plane like the P51B. It won't be a speed demon, but it will have plenty of power.


Jeff
Old 01-07-2008, 09:17 PM
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tony-howard
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

If one of you lucky guys who has one of these kits that would be interested in one of my scale exhaust manifold kits, please contact me. I'd like to make a custom set to fit this kit. So I'll make the first one to take me up on this an offer you can't refuse!

No gimmick or scam here - I just need some dimensions from the cowl to fit a kit to it.

PM me if interested.

Thanks
Old 01-08-2008, 02:05 AM
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Whistling Death
 
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

They have to hit the stores first, but I think I am getting one so I'll talk to ya.
Old 01-08-2008, 05:38 AM
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

Hey Mike, Enjoyed that.
Old 01-08-2008, 10:01 AM
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

Hi Gang,

Just a quick heads up. The P51B started shipping today. They should arrive at the dealers soon.

Happy Landings.

Mike
Old 01-08-2008, 12:30 PM
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Mike Gretz
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

All-
I have the SIG P-51B instruction manual in pdf format. It's approx. 1.5mb, so I am not going to upload it to this web site. If anyone wants it, just send me [email protected] or Mike Lee [email protected] a private email here at SIG, and we will send it right out to you.

jmohn and haze_b -
I am very interested in hearing how your electric versions turn out. Please keep me posted. I have one more prototype unassembled here at SIG, and I am seriously thinking about putting it together with an electric motor for next summer.

Regarding the engine size listing-
The #1 prototype I flew with an older Saito 91 4C. It performed great. All anyone would ever want for a Mustang. Perfect power IMO.
The #2 prototype, the one that was shown at the Chicago show in October, has a new Saito 1.00 4C. Naturally it also performs fantastic because it is very close in power and weight to the older 91.

The engine size spec in the advertising was arrived at by looking at all the engines available on the market in the correct power range, and then narrowing it down by engine weight. I have no doubt that many will be stuffing 1.20 4Cs in the airplane, but they are awfully heavy IMO and will have balance problems. Smaller engines, like a Saito .80 have the right weight range, and would probably fly the Mustang OK, but they might not be all that the customer is looking for in a Mustang engine ... you don't want an underpowered Mustang!

IMO the Saito 90 and 1.00 turned out to be ideal. Really sweet! Any other engine or electric motor in their ballpark should do equally as well. I would consider the Saito 90 - 1.00 specs as the yardstick.

Jmohn-
The retracts supplied in the kit are OK MODELS mechanical units. Almost all of the retracts I had used in 30+ years of RC flying were air operated, so I was slightly skeptical when asked to try the OK MODELS units. Well I gotta tell ya that they installed easy and have performed perfectly. I'm driving mine with a Hi-Tech HS75BB Retract Servo (92 oz of torque). They have never failed me once, except when one of the wire gear legs came loose from the right unit in flight. So now the inst. manual says to be sure to Lock-Tite the gear legs into the units before flying. I understand your favoring air retracts .. normally I'd be right with you .. but I gotta say these mechanical units have not given me any reason to make a change.

Mike G
SIG Mfg Co


Old 01-08-2008, 12:50 PM
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Mike Gretz
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

Tony-
WOW! I just looked at your web site for the first time. Man, you know your Mustangs! I was especially impressed with this page http://pacific-scaled-aircraft.com/P...w_projects.htm

You are right on about the shape of the Mustang nose. Few kits have ever gotten it right. Some are so far out as to be gross and cartoon-like. Whenever a new Mustang comes out, my eyes go first to the top of the nose to see how they handled that.

I have an extra cowling here that I can send you Tony if you want it to develope your aftermarket product for our kit (it came in painted the wrong color). FYI - the kit cowling is fiberglass and already has exhaust stacks molded right into the sides. Will yours go right over the top of the kit stacks? Let me know if you want this cowl.

I'd like to be able to tell you that the new SIG P-51B nose is 100% right on, but it's not perfect (as a 5-time competitor in the scale world championships, I think I have a good eye for scale). But it's closer than many .. I might even go so far as to say closer than most P-51s on the market. It does have the proper valve cover bulges at 11:00 and 1:00 o'clock that most efforts ignore. But it also has a tiny bit more curve to the top line of the cowl than I would have liked (you can send the Chinese ARF manufacturer the drawings, but they do the actual carving). Also, whenever you put a molded cowl over the top of the forward fuselage, instead of inset and flush, you are going to have a little non-scale ledge in the contour. But all in all, I think the cowling is pretty good, and I am very happy with this airplane as a sport scale Mustang. Like I said it's better than most.

We did work hard to get all the general outlines of the airplane correct. The top line of the turtledeck for instance ... it should have a slight curve, flowing right into the back of the canopy, without too much of a hump there. The #1 prototype we received (the one in most the pictures you are seeing) was a straight line. That's been corrected in the final version and looks really good IMO. Also the tail surface outlines of our airplane are excellent, except for the lack of the small elevator counterbalance portions.

FYI - most of the pictures of the SIG P-51B that you all are seeing in various magazines are of the #1 prototype with the early outlines. The #2 prototype shown in the Chicago show pictures has many improvements to the scale outlines. The differences are subtle, but noticable to anyone with an eye for P-51s.

Here is a picture of the final airplane.

Mike G
Old 01-08-2008, 12:51 PM
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Mike Gretz
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Default RE: New Sig P-51B 90-100 size??

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