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Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

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Old 05-25-2009, 07:37 PM
  #276  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Mike, I know what you mean about "fitting" these planes in to various places... I amnowcurrently shopping for a beatervan in order to get the Avenger out to my field. The Bf109 barely fits in my car, and there's no way the Avenger is even going to come close to fitting in my compact wagon... the Avenger is much too long, with no way to get the that big cowl between the seats!

Got the stringers in place, will start sheeting and planking tonight. Hopefully the fuse will be buttoned up by the end of the week (with the exception of the bomb bay).

Be in touch again here soon.

Noah



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Old 06-06-2009, 10:44 PM
  #277  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Chic, Frank, Charlie, and all other Avenger fans.

I have some more updates.

I finally received the piano hinges for the bomb bay doors last week, so it's back to the Avenger tomorrow. In the meantime, here's what I have accomplished since the last update:

Last time I posted I was just about to install the stringers on the bottom of the fuse. This was all pretty straight forward. Although, as I found on the top-side, a few of the notches needed to be re-cut. Again, not hard to do with a razor saw and a knife.

After the rear stringers were in place, I started installing the 1/4x1/4 hardwood that delineates the bomb bay area. This installation went rather slowly, because accurately setting the hardwood stringers is critically important to ensure that the bomb bay doors will pivot nice and smoothly.

The first thing I did was to install the formers on the bottom surface of the wing, spacing them as drawn on the plans. Then I used a long straight edge to verify that the top (bottom) of the formers were even with F-3 and F-9. I also used some brass wire stretched tightly to check the alignment of the notches for the hardwood stringers. The1/4x1/4 hardwood stringersare where the bombbay doors are hinged, so getting them appropriately spaced and perfectly in line (in both the vertical and horizontal planes) is very important. I spent some time adjusting a few of the formers, but it was not too bad overall. Those hardwood stringers were then glued to the airframe using methacrylate (no CA here!). Once the hardwood was in place, the tops of the formers were cut out with a razor saw. I cut them off becase I have a fiberglass lay-up of the bomb bay doors (normally the wood that gets cut away serves as the framework for the doors).
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Old 06-06-2009, 10:51 PM
  #278  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Once the stringers were installed, it was on the the strip planking. I noticed that Jim (Gibb) and Frank (via pictures he sent me) used much wider strips. I found anything wider than about 1/2 inch was difficult to conform to the compound curves (1/8 inch balsa sheeting being used here). So, 1/2 inch strips were basically what I used across the bottom of the fuse. There were a few places here and there where I fit larger pieces of balsa. It's all glued securely to the framework and the adjacent strip, so I have no worries about it being weak. I also brushed in some wood glue into any small gaps.

It obviously still needs to be sanded and shaped, but that's pretty easy work. I'll likely wait until after I fit the bomb bay doors before I start the finish sanding and filling.
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Old 06-06-2009, 10:54 PM
  #279  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Before Iplanked the front-bottom of the fuse, I drilled some holes and pinned F-1 through F-4 with hardwood dowels. I still worry a bit about the weight and torque of the motor, but I think pinning the formers together (and not just relying on the crutch and the stringers) will go a long way towards keeping the fuse from flexing too much. Once the holes were drilled, the dowels were glued in with methacrylate.
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Old 06-06-2009, 11:04 PM
  #280  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Once the pins were dry, the ends were flush-cut and then I went to planking the wing saddle area and bottom of the front of the fuse. Tried to use single large pieces for this.

Now the fuse is all planked soit's onto the bomb bay doors. I have all the material that I need (piano hinges, air cylinders, brass tubing and 0.064 brass sheet), just need to start laying it out. Before Itrim the bomb bay door fiberglass lay-up into four pieces, I'll first likely do a little finish sanding in that area to ensure that the fit will be correct. After the four individual glass doors are cut, I'll start installing the actuating arms and install the cylinders using measurements taken from Charlie's plans.

Hopefully I can make good progress on this work tomorrow.

Until the next update,

Regards,

Noah
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Old 06-07-2009, 05:48 AM
  #281  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Hi to everyone of you Avenger fans. I can only say what a great build Noah is providing for us. Well guys, its true. There are one armed bandits. Unlike theone armed bandits of Vegas, I only have use of my left hand/arm. As of this week, my right arm is tightly strapped to my body, the surgeon said there was much damage done and I can not even start doing rehab physical therapy for three weeks, in order to let the surgery measures heal. Only then, will we start the actual rehab of the shoulder.

Noah, I'm so glad to see you pressing on, you makeit so I truly do not feel completely left out of this build. Your build looks fantastic as I knew it would. I will certainly follow your lead and as we use to say on the block, "go to school offof your accomplishments"when ever I get actual use of both hands/arms again. Of course, once I begin some of the steps you have alreadycompleted, I'll be calling you with a million questions. But first, tell me about the f/g gear doors, have you built them yet? I know we talked about the size of them once before over the phone.

Shirley, my wife is doing fine, the cancerous kidney has been removed and she seems well on her way to a full recovery; I know this because she is walking about more easily, giving orders to me to do stuff like help with the dishes, taking out garbage, and of course, she is seriously thinking about going shopping again, etc.. Heck, she must get better,who is going to take care of me, who is going to help me pull my pants up, put my shirts on, comb my hair, etc.? Thanks guys again for your kind words, Noah, I know I can only watch, but you make watching an adventure. Chic
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Old 06-07-2009, 05:55 AM
  #282  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Noah, forgot to ask you what brand/type of "Methacrylate" are you using. I'd like to order the same stuff now so that I will have it to use later. Chic
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Old 06-07-2009, 06:43 AM
  #283  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

HI, Chic.

Glad to hear that Shirley is feeling better! Wishing you both speedy recoveries.

I have not given any consideration to the gear doors lately. I did decide NOT to use plywood material, and I will just lay-up some glass cloth to make the doors. I actually have a picture or two from Charlie showing his gear door details. When I get to work this morning I can forward you those pictures (they're on my computer at work).

Regarding the methacrylate, I order from On-Hand Adhesives (http://www.gluguru.com/).It's ITW Plexus methacrylate. I get it by the case of 12 (the only way that On-Hand Adhesives will sell it). Because I get it "in bulk," it only about $10 per 50mL tube... At least that's what I paid last year when I placed my most recent order. I recently looked at a tube of Aeropoxy, and it was listed for $15! I would bet that the price of methacrylate has risen since I last ordered from On-Hand Adhesives, but I'd also bet that it's STILL one of the cheapest sources. If someone checks, let me know. I would be interested to hear. Of course they also have all the mixing nozzles, and guns, too. 12 tubes is a lot, but I provide it to other members in my club, too (kind of like a group order).

After work today, it's onto the engine/firewall/firewall balsa ring and bomb bay doors.

Will post again soon with another update.

Best,

Noah
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Old 06-07-2009, 06:53 PM
  #284  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Noah, first Shirley said you legs are cool, she wanted to know are you a past running back or a hockey player with those great calves?Ok, ok. your the gru-ru here so help me out with this. I have been using Loctite 9462 (Hysol Expoxy) as my mix in a mixing nozzle/gunglue. Now your telling me about this ITW Plexus Methacrylate. By my reading, am I to understand that this glue is not an expoxy and has better adhesive characteristics then expoxy and that I should stop using the Loctite 9462 and switch to the ITW stuff? I checked the website you gave me and there must be over 20 different products listed under the ITW Plexus Methacrylate heading. What is the set time on your glue? Which of the ITW Plexus Methacrylate productsare you specifically using. Heck, I'd order what you have and also keep the Loctite Hysol that I'm currently using. What specifically are you using the methacrylate on (construction). I'm using the hysol for firewall, landing gear mounts, etc. Which glue is the better one to use or should I have them both for different purposes? Chic
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Old 06-07-2009, 08:05 PM
  #285  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Hey Chic,

Aeropoxy (sold by Bob Violett Models) and some of the Hysol stuff (sold by Loctite) and the ITW Plexus (stuff that I use) are all essentially the same: methacrylate adhesive. Loctite Hysol has so many product numbers that I could never keep them stright. But if your Hysol says it's epoxy, then you're correct... it's likely not methacrylate. It should say methacrylate somewhere on the tube. Methacrylate will not run or sag (can put it on vertical surfaces) and depending on the formulation, it generally sets in about 15 minutes. Un-breakable in about 30 minutes. I know for certain that the Aeropoxy is methacrylate adhesive. Lots of places will sell the stuff, but often it's sold and packaged under different names (and very different prices). But it all looksthe same, and smells horribly the same, and they are all tough as nails! Just like you, I use it where strength and durability are critically important.

I will dig out my invoice for my last order that I placed with On-Hand Adhesives. Their website is goofy, so when I order I just call. They're located up closer to me, just outside of Chicago.

Tell Shirley that she got me blushing!

No work on the Avenger today, clouds lifted when I was leaving work this afternoon, soI packed up the Byron P-47 and flew around with my friend and his TF giant Mustang. Wing tip to wing tip! Lots of fun.

Be in touch soon.

Noah

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Old 06-07-2009, 08:45 PM
  #286  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Chic, I just looked though my records; I ordered Plexus Methacrylate Adhesive, MA310, 50 mL tubes.

If you try to shop on line at gluguru.com, you'll be directed to another manufacterer's methacrylate (Aldarite, or something like that). If you do order on line, then you'll want the Aldarite 2022, I think. The price for Aldarite methancrylate is about the same as Aeropoxy, which is why it might be worth callingOn-Hand to ask about the Plexus stuff. Looks like you can buy 6 tubes, too, if you go with Aldarite.

Anyone else got an inexpensive source for methacrylate?

Anyway, Chic, If you get a price let me know. When I was shopping for the stuff originally (about 2 years ago), the stuff that I got through On-Handwas the least expensive I could find. It would be interesting to know if there's a better deal on this rather spendy adhesive.

Best,

Noah
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:56 AM
  #287  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Noah, just ordered the Aldarite 2022 thru the alternate site I was sent to. Price is about the same as BV's Aeropoxy ($13 & chg). I ordered the six tube package. We will see, but I was told that the same dispencer gun I am using for the Hysol will work with the Aldarite, both have a 1:1 mixing ratio. Therefore I did not order the gun, just cartidges and mix nozzles. I won't hold my breath. At least in my condition, I'll be able to recover and order the gun specifically for the Aldarite cartridges during my surgery recovery time prior to when I'll need it. Thanks for the tip on glue. I think I'll use the remaining Hysol on structure (wings, tail feathers, etc.) and the Methacrylate on firewalls, fuse front ends, L/gear supports, etc.) Chic
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Old 06-08-2009, 10:06 AM
  #288  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Hey guys, forgot to include the following: the Methacrylate glue from www.gluguru.comis listed for $12.22 each and can only be purchased in 12 cartridges per case (about $147)plus shipping versus theadhesive from the alternative site,the Aldarite 2022 at $13 &chg(about $84) plus shipping for 6 cartridges. Bob Violett's Aeropoxy is about $13 & chg also but it is an expoxy base glue.
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Old 06-08-2009, 12:04 PM
  #289  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Now I'm confused. Maybe Aeropoxy from BVM is not really methacrylate. Lord knows what the Hysol stuff is.

I was first turned onto methacrylate by Wayne Siewert of Aerotech Models (http://www.aerotechmodels.com/). I got their glue gun special, which consisted of a gun, 2 mixing nozzles and 2 tubes of adhesive. When I spoke with him on the phone about it, he said that the stuff would bond anything to everything, and it's tougher than anything he has ever seen before. So, I ordered, and I would agree that it the good stuff. I have repaired landing gear plates for friends that chronically ripped them out of their wings... and the glue held! Bad landing after bad landing! 

Anyway, when I ran out of the stuff I got from Wayne, I started shopping around for alternative, less expensive sources... that's how I came across the Plexus stuff at On-Hand.

You should compare your Hysol to the methacrylate when you get a chance, Chic.

Speak with you soon.

Noah


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Old 06-08-2009, 08:26 PM
  #290  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build



Small update. Not a ton of progress made, but rather than accumulate a mass of unlabeled photos, I thought I would try to update the thread more often.

I started work on the bomb bay door actuating arms/torsion tubes. Got some good hints from some members here on RCU for cutting brass sheetscleanly and safely. But, even with that advice, I have still come to the conclusion that cutting 0.064" brass sheet is not pleasurable task. Should have maybe just used carbon rod and G-10 linkage arms, but I have the brass finished, so I'll just give it a go for now.

Taking measurements from the plans (also shown in the photo) I traced, punched, drilled, cut and then filed smooth the 6 arms that comprise the linkage between the torque tube/air cylinders and bomb bay doors. Those have now been placed onto the torque tubes (also brass). In all this took about 30 minutes of work. Not too bad.

The next step will be to dry-fit the linkages into the airframe and then determine what angle is required between the two adjacent arms located toward the front end of the tube. I think this next step will take a bit of time: testing fitting, adjusting, etc... Once the rods have been appropriatly located in the fuse, and the angles finalized, the arms will be soldered to the tube.

When I get it fitted to its final resting place, I'll post again with a description of how I did it all, Chic.

Be in touch soon.

Noah

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Old 06-14-2009, 07:33 PM
  #291  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Did a little work on the plane today. I had hoped to get the bay doors fully installed, but I could not get my hands on any suitable hardware(#1 1/4 inch screws)to secure the hinges to the spruce spars along each side of the bomb bay. So, I just focused on other bits, like working to finish the actuating arms for the bomb bay.

The bomb bay doors are driven by a brass torque tube. The ends of the tubes need to be secured to F-1 and F-9, and positioned appropriately so that they operate the doors smoothly and reliably. I intended on drilling holes in the wood and inserting some bushings, but Charlie had a great suggestion:solder the bushings to some brass "flats." See pictures.To make them, I firstmarked, drilled and then cut the flats from the 0.064 inch sheet. The bushings are 9/64 brass tubing which just slips right over the 1/4 torque rod tubing. For the bushings attached to F-9, they were cut and soldered on an angle to match the slope of F-9.

Using this approach, the rods can be "tacked" in place with a coupleof screws and then firmly secured once the position of the brass torque tubes has been finalized.
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Old 06-14-2009, 07:40 PM
  #292  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Once the rods were installed, I moved onto cutting the bay door fiberglass lay-up.

To ensure a good fit, I tacked a few "stops" around the bay door opening so that the glass would have something to rest against as I marked the lines. Once the lay-up was cut to fit the entire opening, it was set aside. Eventually, this piece will be divided into 4 equal strips. I'm going to wait to cut the individual doors until I have the hinge mounting screws in hand.

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Old 06-14-2009, 07:48 PM
  #293  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Then I tried to get on with some final sanding. Naturally, I'd forgotten howmuch Idislikesanding and shaping sometimes. Today I was not much in the mood, so I didn't get as far along as I could have. But I got a few high-spots knocked off the back of the fuse.

So, I stopped the sanding and wentonto fitting the motor. For those who have been following along, recall I made some pretty major modifications to the front end of the fuse to accommodate the motor. Now it was time to see if all my math and measurements worked out.

I started by drilling and mounting F-0 (my false firewall) to F-1. Once my predetermined marks were aligned, I drilled and secured F-0 to F-1 with eight 1/4-20 bolts and blind nuts.
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Old 06-14-2009, 07:56 PM
  #294  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Since I had the airframe outside for the sanding and drilling, I thought I would grab all the sub-assemblies and mock it up to get a feel for how it's shaping up.

Every part of the Avenger still needs some sanding and shaping before Imove onto fiberglassing, but was pretty pleased with how it looked in the back yard today. It's a beast!

Still need to work on the ball turret area, and none of the balsa along the cockpit has yet been trimmed or shaped. I also need to cut the leading edge slots in the top if the wing sheeting (the bottom slots are already cut). Most importantly, I still need to mount the horizontal stab and vertical fin one of these days. I'll probably wait until after the bay doors are in before I permanently mount the tail section. I have put it off mountng the tail assemblies because it's much easier to flip the plane around in my shop without the stabs attached. But, it's getting close to time to mount it permanently and be done with it.

Overall, I really have some major work to do, but it's always refreshing to put it together and look at the airframe all mocked up from time-to-time.

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Old 06-14-2009, 07:58 PM
  #295  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Lastly, since Iplaced F-0 today I thought I should at least bolt on the 150cc radial and see how it was looking... The F-0false firewall worked perfectly, and it was very easy to install the motor while it was attached to F-0. The 8 bolts that secure F-0 to F-1 are all placed such that it's easy to work around the cylinders and the exhaust collector ring.

Looking forward to firing this motor for the first time!

But I have soooooo much left to do...I need to make a balsa cowl ring, and fit the cowl, and baffle the engine, fit the flaps, cover the control surfaces, canopy, ball turret, fill, sand, fill, sand, fiberglass, fill, sand, fill, sand, and so on, and so on....Pretty sure thatmy statment that I hoped to"have it in primer by July" was totally unrealistic!

Oh, well. That's about it for today.

Will post again when I get the bomb bay doors in place, Chic.

Hope all is well.

Regards,

Noah

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Old 06-14-2009, 09:29 PM
  #296  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Wow, nice Noah.  Looks impressive put together.  Again, the timing seems foreboding with your nice pics posted today, as I was out sweeping the drive today and a full scale one flew over my house.....twice...The Avenger seems to have my name on it.  The one I saw resides at my local air field here in town, and I'm planning on going over and getting a walkaround of it tomorrow.  If I get over there, I'll put my pics on the thread here.
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Old 06-14-2009, 09:37 PM
  #297  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build



Hi, Mike.

I have always had a thing for the Avenger, but honestly I've actually never seen one in the air! The Quad Cities Air Show in Davenport, IA, generally has an Avenger in attendance, but I have never had the opportunity to see it in flight. I wonder if it's the same Avenger.

Post some pictures if you're able.

Best,

Noah

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Old 06-18-2009, 07:52 PM
  #298  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Hey Chic, Frank, Charlie and all other Avenger fans.

I don't really have much new to share, but again rather than accumulate a bunch of pictures I'll continue to update the thread as often as possible.

I did finish building the balsa cowl ring (forgot to shoot a picture of it in the finished state),and Istarted trimming the canopies and the wood surrounding the cockpit/ball turret areas. I now have to think about cowl mounting. Waiting to hear back from you, Chic. Sent you a few questions the other day regarding your cowl mounting. Also, before Igo crazy with the saw and knives in the cockpit area, I really needto sit down and study the portion of the plans that detail the installation of the sliding canopy. I think that once I make sure Iknow what I'm doing it should go pretty fast.

I still have not permanently mounted the stabs. I want to be basically finished with the bomb bay before Igluethe stabs in place.Today I did finally get the hardware to mount the bomb bay doors. So, with any luck, and depending on how smoothly the bay door installation goes, Ishould be able to get the bay doors working and mount the stabs this weekend.

Then it's onto filling and sanding as Iprepare the airframe for fiberglass. Also need to map out radio installation, cut hatches for hidden access to air fill chucksand fuel dots. I think that I'm going to hide the radio switches in the cockpit, concealed by the sliding canopy. Lots of thinking and planning left to do.

I have some reasonably big planes, but this thing is truly a turkey! Fat. Very fat.

Be in touch again soon.

Noah
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Old 06-18-2009, 11:04 PM
  #299  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

 Noah,

            She is definatly a big girl.... keep up the good work!  It looks very nice... congrats!!

      Regards,

             Flakbait
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Old 06-19-2009, 05:34 AM
  #300  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Noah, your work is beautiful and inspiring. I'm typing with one finger, I can not get close enough with this sling/harness on to use both hands. I used brass inserts mounted in the ring to secure the cowl. I figured since I had a long T-handle wrench to stick through the front of the cowl and reach the bolts screwed thru the cowl mounts and into the brass inserts, the inserts would be an excellent way to mount the cowl. Hope to get back in the shopby mid July. Shirley and I are both mending nicely. At least that is what our doctors are telling us. Noah, she really looks sweet. Keep taking me to school, you are making the lives of other Avenger builders easy. I'll talk to you laterabout cutting the brass for the bombay doors. Chic
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