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  1. #1301

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Peter
    How are you doing the raised panels, it almost looks like you applied thin styrene sheets to the fuse. I found a great website for needlepointers, thinking of joining after seeing you build


    Larry

  2. #1302
    peter w h's Avatar
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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Hey Larry,
    Needle point sucks, what you need is a good dose of AVENGER IN THE AIR to shake those thoughts.
    The raised panels are done with icing filler / hardener, it's a very fine slightly thinner than regular two part putty filler.
    Just apply masking tape where the line is to be and fill one side, use a stiff applicator and press against the tape edge, a very light sand and then pull the tape off, presto instant panel raised edge with no over spray.
    Make sure you plan it out, a basic easy way to remember which order to do them in is to think as if you where shingling a roof (bottom to top and back to front for the fuse, trailing to leading outboard to inboard on the wings) but don't use nails.
    Peter
    P-47 Brotherhood # 31

  3. #1303

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Perfect! Thanks for the explanation.

    I will likely order another cowl from Charlie and re-work my installation... down the road, that is. I think that after the 2013 season of flying, it might be time to perform a refurbishment on my Avenger. I fly it all the time (which requires transporting, naturally), and it's got a fair amount of hangar rash as a consequence. Last year, on our way to the Indiana Warbird Campaign event in Muncie, Indiana my Avenger broke loose from its tie-downs in a trailer and tore-up the underside pretty badly (crushed rudder, broken counterbalance on elevator). 50lbs bouncing around the inside of a trailer for a few hours is not good!

    Noah

  4. #1304
    peter w h's Avatar
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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Noah,

    Now that's just nauseating.

    You have painted a picture in my mind of the Avenger bouncing around in the trailer, that image is almost as bad as seeing Keith Richards in a Speedo, it's just wrong.

    Peter
    P-47 Brotherhood # 31

  5. #1305

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Peter,
    Thanks for the info, will come in handy for the Trojan build, the good part about having a build partner is that you have someone to bounce ideas off of, not to mention sharing the cost. The bad is compromise on the finishing. Oh and the other thing is I get custody when I finally move to Arizona.

    Noah, don't know if you have room in the trailer but if you build a cradle ala Charlie and put some kleets on the floor to hold it in position it might solve the breakaway problem. The other option is to wrap plane in LARGE bubble wrap , seriously though the cradle idea works for building fixing and transporting. I think I sent Chic a drawing of harpies cradle.. PVC pipe a few couplers and fini, let me know if you would like me to send you the drawing

    Larry

  6. #1306

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Noah you brought up my worst fear of having the models in a trailer. I ordered my first trailer which should be here in three weeks. I am very worried about getting to an event and opening the trailer to find a pile of balsa. I am thinking of getting one of the "backup cameras" and installing it inside the trailer so that I can check on things after going over a big bump. I am hoping to be able to transport three planes stacked vertically in the trailer.

    Sorry to hear about the damage to your Avenger. It is easy to look at the finished plane forget that they are as fragile as they are. I have had some of my helpers forget it too. One time one put his thumb through the rudder moving the Avenger in the pits. Another kneeled on the wing while helping to unloading the van. Stuff happens.

    Charlie

  7. #1307

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Here's how I did it.

    Grover
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  8. #1308

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Yeah, that was gut-wrentching to open the doors of the trailer in a McDonalds parking lot half-way between Iowa City and Muncie and see the Avenger sitting 4 feet from where it once sat in the trailer.

    The problem was that my friend (who owns the trailer) and I decided to use small bungee cords wrapped around the axles of the mains and tail of our planes. That failed. His Byron AT-6 stayed in place, but my much-heavier Avenger tore loose and bounced all over the top and alongside his model, and presumably rolled forward and back everytime we braked or accellerated. Sickening.

    The solution was to use bailing wire wrapped around the axles of the mains and tail gear, and then passed through heavy eye-bolts screwed into the trailer decking. Problems solved!

    We were both VERY luck in that the damage to both planes was more-or-less cosmetic. He masked and re-painted some of his model in the pits at the event, and I was able to make field repairs to the rudder and elevator, thanks to the kind and generous offers of balsa, CA and a covering iron from several participants at the meet. It would have been VERY sad to have travled 500 miles to only be a spectator at one of the premier events in the Midwest!

    NB

  9. #1309

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Charlie,

    Congrats on the new trailer! Someday I'll get something of my own suitable to haul my planes. Currently, I have a junky Chevy Lumina minvan with all seats (except the driver's, naturally) removed. Even then, I can only fit either the Avenger or the Tigercat, but not both.

    I'm selling the minivan before I leave for OKC to a current clubmate. Once I get settle down there in OKC, I hope to be able to find another "beater" van to haul the planes. I'm trying to avoid a trailer, partially for the reasons outlined above, but also storing the trailer could be an issue when it's not in use, depending on where we live. Also, I will eventually be commuting into work, so I need a smaller car that gets reasonable mileage... and such a car would not handle a trailer.

    I hope to get a solid, used, over-sized cargo van once I get down there for use during weekend trips to the flying field! Steve or Boyd, if you're listening, keep your eyes peeled!

    NB

  10. #1310

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Noah,

    Will do. My problem was solved by restoring a 1985 Chevy C-10. I don't recoemend this becuase it became a money drain. I can't believe I did this. I still have the interior to do.

    Boyd.

  11. #1311
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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Hey Boyd , welcome to the club, I do it all the time, check it out.

    www.howemotorworks.com

    ORIGINAL: maser

    Noah,

    Will do. My problem was solved by restoring a 1985 Chevy C-10. I don't recoemend this becuase it became a money drain. I can't believe I did this. I still have the interior to do.

    Boyd.
    P-47 Brotherhood # 31

  12. #1312
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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Noah,
    I know where there is an old ugly big blue van. Primarily used on weekends, but has been known to carry heavy loads of other stuff, and it has only 360+ thousand miles.
    Really I could not part with it because it has been “old blue” for the past 15 to 16 years to me.

    However there are two very nice looking conversion vans between Mustang and Yukon on Hwy 92 south of where you were staying while here. I can check prices if you would like. I bought mine as a conversion and stripped it to what you saw here, except for the ulgy part. The only thing I kept and slightly modified was the external power cord receptacle. I am able to plug a cord into the side of the van externally and from an internal outlet charge everything from with-in the van. Just remember to unplug before you drive off or use an extremely long cord.[X(]

    I to have been considering a trailer and yes there are some additional measures you should take.

    1. Buy with or modify the leaf spring to remove the stiffness from the suspension. Remember most trailers are sold with axels capable of carrying weight hundreds of pounds greater that what we will ever place on them fully loaded. Doing the mod or buying one with light duty leaf springs will allow the shock loads to be absorbed by the springs and not the contents of the trailer.

    2. Do not transport the models on the landing gear for long durations. Save the wear and tear on them for landings like mine. Bill has had very good results using foam cradles beneath the fuselage and using light duty bungee cords over the tops. I have also seen wide Velcro straps used. Either way place foam rubber between the straps.

    Also, I was at the airport again today and all is well. Sorry you could not be here this weekend for the Sooner Squad Jumbo IMAA event. Great flying weather, and my little helper put his first IMAA event flight there buddy boxed up with me flying his US Army T-41.
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    WARBIRDRCER:
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  13. #1313

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Oh, my, goodness.... "committed to excellence in both detail and performance" is NO joke, Peter!!!

    VERY, very cool...

  14. #1314

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Thanks for the offers of help identifying a plane hauler, Steve and Boyd.

    I think I hold off on committing to any purchase until I'm down there and settled. One thing at a time!!!!

    Noah

  15. #1315

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    I love hearing all you guys talk "AVENGER" talk. Really enjoy hearing and learning from you guys. By the way, Charlie, the jet guys taught me to not use bungy cords to tie down models in trailers, but rather, strap the model in cradles with VELCRO only. The bungy cords allow the models to float about while bouncing along the roads, whereas the velcro secures the models firmly to the floor, to the cradle, etc. I use velcro in my trailer and Ford Epedition EL with great success. I saw Grover's TBM, well done, well done Grover. Larry, needlepoint, almost agree with you myself after viewing Pete's stuff. What a builder, what a builder. But as I did with you and Noah, I am going to school off of him also. Have alot to learn from all of you. Peter, what kind of paint will you use? Noah, hope the repairs are not tooooo involved? I'm sure the French Avenger will return to flying missions soon. Stay well everyone, stay well. Ebay or Target for the Snoopy shirt. Especially if you are flying that dog house. Chic
    Never Has So Many - Owed So Much - To So Few.
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  16. #1316

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Peter,

    Nice web site. I'm sure you can imagine the cost involved with this type of work. I had the professionels do all of the work. My freind Steve (Warbirdrcer) started by changing the 304 to a crated 350. When he got done, the interior of the engine compartmentlooked brand new. He's to blame for the remaining restoration. I could not have the engine compartment looking better than the rest of the truck.

    What's icing filler? Is it sold in the auto departments?

    Boyd

  17. #1317
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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Hey guys,

    Boyd,
    One thing looking better than the rest is called the "snow ball effect".

    Icing filler is an automotve product and is just what the name implies, it is a finishing filler that can be applied very thin as a last fill before priming.
    It spreads out easier than regular 2 part putty , it's sort of a scaled down version if you will.
    http://www.uschem.com/index.cfm?page...il&id=57&pid=1

    Hey Redtail, long time no hear.
    Have you started back on the beast yet?

    I will be using Klass Kote paints / hardener and a flatening agent, their out of the can product has a little too much sheen for my taste.
    http://www.klasskote.com/


    Peter


    ORIGINAL: maser
    Peter,

    Nice web site. I'm sure you can imagine the cost involved with this type of work. I had the professionels do all of the work. My freind Steve (Warbirdrcer) started by changing the 304 to a crated 350. When he got done, the interior of the engine compartmentlooked brand new. He's to blame for the remaining restoration. I could not have the engine compartment looking better than the rest of the truck.

    What's icing filler? Is it sold in the auto departments?

    Boyd
    P-47 Brotherhood # 31

  18. #1318

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    That's impossible! No way could I have would I have knelt on your Beechcraft wing.
    The dog pushed me!
    You did say it was the Beech right???? Or did I just incriminate myself?

  19. #1319
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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu3w...e_gdata_player

    ran across this and thought you guys might enjoy it

    Casey
    Fliteskin, Sierra, Nelson Hobby, MICKO aircraft, Getstencils, Holman Plans, VicRC, Castle Creations, Addicted to Luft, BestPilots.com

  20. #1320

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Cool video, Casey. Thanks for sharing.

    By the way, I finally broke down and clicked on one of the Zeno's Warbird Drive-in links, and came across the original military flight training films for several fighters and bombers. I should have clicked on the links sooner! Really cool stuff. (congrat's to the management at Zeno's Warbird Drive-in!!!)

    Here's a link to a training film for the TMB/TBF Avenger. Flight sequences are really cool. Amazing how properly trimmed Avengers basically fly themselves from the ground on take-off in what is essentially a 3-point attitude. Goes against everything I was taught about flying taildraggers!

    Enjoy:

    http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/TBF.html

  21. #1321

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    OK all you Avenger pilots, you heard the spokesperson on Casey's video, no hard flying manuevers or other silly shananagans (sp) with this airplane, it is meant to fly smoothly. Great video. You guys who are flying the airframe, are you taking off without elevator or letting it 3 point itself into the air. Well Noah, how are your new digs? Chic
    Never Has So Many - Owed So Much - To So Few.
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  22. #1322
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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Chic, I received the Snoopy WINGMAN shirt today, Thanks! I will look for my next opportunity to pass along a good deed to a fellow modeler.

    Noah, thanks for the Avenger training video. Now that I am checked out on systems and procedures I will ask my buddy here if I can take his for a flight.

    Speaking of Avengers, yours is just fine. I saw it again today while at the airport. I will be totally moved from El Reno and into the new hanger by close of business tomorrow.

    glazier808, thanks for your video too.
    WARBIRDRCER:
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  23. #1323

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Hey guys,
    Great video not sure I would have been comfortable trying to lock the wings. With everything they had to do to start the beast I'm surprised they ever got them in the air.
    Noah are you settled in yet?
    Chic, how's the build coming or are you spending all your time drooling over the red tail you took the picture with.
    Started the other half of the wing on the Trojan, and finally 3 weeks to first flight of the the P-38, all balanced, next week one more engine run up to get the engines synced and a taxi test and then will be ready for it's maiden flight..
    No work on the avenger last week or this coming week though we are hoping to have it all ready for our club warbirds fly in July 16th, more pix in 2 weeks.
    Peter how did you like the craftmanship of the metal planes I emailed you and the guys, someone definitely has way too much time on his hands.

    Larry


  24. #1324

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    glazier808, thanks for the video link.

    Chic, I have watched numerous full scale Avengers takeoff and land from the three point stance. The guys making the three point takeoffs have an airspeed indicator. Without it I am not ready to try it. The Avenger model brings the tail up all by itself and will fly off with a click or two of up trim. Same thing for landings. I always wheel land the model. Trying to hit the three point landing requires working very near the stall point.

    Charlie

  25. #1325

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    RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

    Chic,

    Thanks for checking in... pack date is June 25, load and depart June 26. So, still in Iowa City, Iowa right now, and for the next 16 days.

    Don't try to 3-point the landing... I have tried 4 times and each was horrible. Charlie of course knows best, but I can back it up. It's just too difficult to get it to stall just right (1-2 inches above the runway). If you're too high, even any higher than 6 inches, you're in for trouble. Just fly it to the ground with a bit of power. When the mains make contact, chop the throttle and the tail will settle on its own. Opposite with take-off. you really only need rudder, while leaving elevator completely neutral. Tail will lift on its own... Let tail lift, keep smoothly applying power, then gentle back pressure on elevator will get her off smoothly once you've gone to full-power.

    Noah


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