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Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

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Old 12-01-2008, 10:27 PM
  #176  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Noah, my God, I forgot to talk about the dogs. Luv them. Ex-racer and Redbone, now those are names. I have a Double Vision by Chip Hyde done up in REDBONE BBQ logo. That is the name of my fictious BBG business that I will never ever go into. The name just sounds cool. To find good BBQ, the bones had better be reddish in color. We have an English Springer Spaniel. Her name is Dusty Satin Brown, she is tri-color. Thank goodness, she does not like to eat balsa but she will certainly lay in a pile of balsa dust when in the shop. Then I catch you know what from Shirley when she has to clean her up. I'm beat, time to hit the rack. Chic
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:38 PM
  #177  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Boy I tell ya, Frank Tiano is very responsive. The photo shows his 9" diameter simulated engine I just purchased from him to put in my Mk. III Tarpon. Again, following Charlie's lead. The inside diameter is approx 1 3/4" in diameter. I set it on the Avenger Walk Around Book to give you an idea of its size. It is going to be cold and blustery this weekend, so I'm turning up the heat in the workshop and completing a wing center section. Talk about turning up the heat, I just had the furnace/ac unit replaced (approx $7K) within the last two days, so I am now throughly broke, poor, empty handed, or whatever you wish to call being without a damn dime. Those things always crash at the right time (winter). I knew it was coming so you can see why I purchased everything for the Avenger upfront and quickly. [:-]
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Old 12-04-2008, 09:29 AM
  #178  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Chic, don't hesitate to call if you have questions on the center section.

I have been chipping away at the outer panels the past few days. I should have the left fitted and finished and the right fitted by Sunday.

I'll post more pictures then.

Talk to you soon.

Noah
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Old 12-06-2008, 07:38 PM
  #179  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

OK guys, I'm finally officially onboard. The center section has begun to take shape. I'm so glad I listened to Noah, Frank, Gibb, and Charlie and took the time to dry fit, trim, dry fit, trim, and dry fit some more. Most of the trimming was to W-3. I really opened up the landing gear mount holes in ribs W-2 and W-4 to allow considerable adjustment fore, aft, and vertical. I will cut pieces of ply to fill the gaps in W-2 and W-4 when I Hysol the whole center section together tomorrow. I'm studying all of your photos on finishing the securing of the landing gear with that moveable piece off of the rear arm of the l/gear. My gear sits just below 3.5" off of the building surface. I'm going with Noah on this one, both sides are just a pinch below 3.5" so I'm calling it good. [>:] Need to spend some time with the wife and the dog. Back to the shop tomorrow. Chic
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Old 12-06-2008, 08:11 PM
  #180  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Chic, howya been? I feel for you, with the furnace replacement. It's bad enough trying to keep the tank full and the old one I have running, and I seriously dread the day I have to replace mine.

Are you using the 9-cyl dummy because you can't find a 7-cyl? The Wright R-2600 Cyclone that the TBM/TBF used is a 14 cylinder engine, twin rows of 7 each. The P&W R-2800 is an 18 cylinder twin row, but not used in the TBM/TBF

1st pic is the R-2800 (full scale) 2nd pic is the R-2600 ( a machined model scaled to 7-1/4 inches diameter)
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Old 12-06-2008, 10:43 PM
  #181  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Thanks Ken, I had not even given it a thought. I just wanted to do what Charlie did. You are certainly correct, my dummy engine should be a 7 cylinder (front row). I understand that some company (Aerotech or something like that) has 7 cylinder engines in 8" or 9". I'll go check that out. Again, you have saved my butt. Would hate to show up at a scale contest and be downgraded for having too many cylinders in the front row. Good catch, my friend, glad you got my back covered. Keep looking out for me. Anyone need a 9 cylinder resin cast engine - cheap. Chic
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Old 12-07-2008, 11:42 AM
  #182  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Save the 9-cyl for a future P-47 project

Aerotec does make a 7-cyl kit. Sort of pricey, is resin cast, but looks good and can be nicely detailed. That is what I used on my UMF Waco. Remember, when you mount the engine, there should be a cylinder straight down at the bottom. Twin row engines count from the rear bank, #1 cylinder would be on the rear at the top, so front row is offset and #11 would be at the center bottom. The only thing to prevent a perfect simulation would be not seeing the offset rear bank in between the cylinders of the front bank. How far do you want to go?

here's what the Aerotec dummy looks like, before and after detaling:
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Old 12-07-2008, 12:28 PM
  #183  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Ken, you are toooo awesome and a real friend. Thank you for the pictures. These are the first I have seen. You would not "BELIEVE" how much time and trouble I have spent and had with this problem this morning. All morning as a matter of fact. I saw on the Aerotec site that they have a 7 cylinder engine, but no pictures. OK my friend, what do you think about, slacking off a couple of my wife's Xmas presents, and buying two of Aerotec's engines and cutting and mounting a second row of cylinders to the back of the front row. I could somewhat hollow out the cylinders to lower the weight. I could mount the 2nd row cylinders a fraction of the inch behind and between the front row cylinders. If I intend to compete with this puppy, do I have a choice? Any suggestions from you and the other devoted readers? The furnace, hummmm, well at least it will be a warm Xmas, what a blow. With God, it too will pass. By the way, I still have the 1/3 Pup waiting here for ya. Chic
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Old 12-07-2008, 06:46 PM
  #184  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

I had to remove some of the rear of the cylinder material on the dummy to clear the G-26, it grinds out easily with a burr on a Dremel tool. Did you see the price of the Aerotec stuff? If you want to buy two of them, go for it[sm=tired.gif], but that kind of $$ would look good hanging on your wife's ears or around her neck on Xmas morn.

I think they would look awesome staggered like that, very realistic. Would the weight make a difference, or the thickness be a problem for engine clearance? I know they don't have as much detail, but have you considered the vacuformed dummies that Top Flite has? Maybe they aren't the right size, though. What diameter do you need, and I'll keep my eyes peeled for alternatives to the aerotec product.

While we're talking engines, check out this site and admire this guy's work. It is where I found the pic of the model Cyclone engine above. I only wish they ran. They do, apparently move (internals).

http://www.barronaviation.com/Defaul...abid=130&pid=0
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Old 12-07-2008, 07:19 PM
  #185  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Trust me Ken, girlfriend does well each year. As an example, I rebuilt her bathroom, clawfoot tub, italian tile flr, and all. Since then, for me to use her bathroom, 1st level, she charges me $1. I thought it was funny at first. This is how I decided to give her, her Xmas money. However, last year, she counted $625 in ones from her money collection basket in her bathroom. I started hanging a gallon jug around my neck in order to save enough money for me to participate in this hobby. [>:] Well guys, let me add to the lose of money for me this month. After the furnace replacement and the wife, I now find out that I can not use the Glennis brakes I purchased. Don't get me wrong, there was nothing wrong with what "Dennis" of Glennis Wheels did or the products he makes. As a matter of fact, he is probably one of the best after sale customer support people in our hobby. He has always been very responsive and professional during this build. Due to the landing gear mounting and wing construction, I just don't have the necessary clearance I had before the brakes were added. I'm still happy to be using the Glennis wheels, just without the brakes. Maybe I can use them on another future project. Chic
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Old 12-07-2008, 09:21 PM
  #186  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

OK, back at it this weekend.

As I did for the left outer panel, I started by framing up the right panel over the plans with the washout shim in place. Be sure to keep the structure weighted to avoid distortion, especially when adding the vertical grain 3/32 balsa shear webbing. No new pictures there, as everything is identical to the left panel.

My methods for joining the left outer panel to the center section worked pretty well, so the right went much faster. I'll run through it once more so all is clear, because I think it's a pretty simple and straightforward approach.

I started by taping the right outer plan to the center section plan, again maintaining register using the leading edge lines and the wing tube drawn on the plans. Also very important to verify the 54" half span dimension. Once that was done, the center section was set over its plan, pinned and weighted down so it would not get bumped and shifted around.

To mate the right panel to the center section, I began by tacking on a dihedral brace to the bottom of W-19 (balsa stick measuring 4 5/16" ). Then I trimmed the bottom main spar (on an angle to match W-6) using measurements taken form the taped-up plans. The top main spar was trimmed as well. To do this I used the 62 degree alignment template. Make sure the dihedral brace is in place and then just set the template even with the cut on the bottom main spar. Transfer the line to the top spar and trim cut (also on an angle to match W-6). I should say that when making these cuts, it's critical that you do not trim too much of the spar away. So whenever in doubt, just remove small amounts of material as you go.

Now that the main spars were trimmed, I used a carpenters square to verify that the leading edge of the outer panel was always over its plan (see photo). Slide the outer panel up to the center. The rear balsa spars and the 1/4 x 1/4 leading edge spar will hit W-6. So, cut or sand those as required (always on an angle to match W-6) until the outer panels slides all the way up to W-6 (i.e. the top and bottom main spars meet W-6). Most important here is that you always keep checking that the outer panel is over the plan (using a square as shown in the picture).

You know you are there when all spars mate evenly against W-6 and the wing panel (with dihedral brace attatched) is still over its plan.



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Old 12-07-2008, 09:59 PM
  #187  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Now that the spars have been trimmed, it's now time to breakout W-7. Clamp a flat bar to W-7 and trial fit this piece to the spars in the outer panel. Remember that W-7 is cut oversized so don't panic if it looks like it's too big.

If all spars were flush with W-6 (as determined above), then a flat W-7 (clamped to a bar) should align nicely with the spars. Importantly, some or all notches in W-7 may have to be trimmed (opened or re-cut). Trim the notches as required and trial fit again. When the flat W-7 fits flush with all the spars, remove W-7 from the outer panel (and the flat bar) and now clamp W-7 to W-6 (the whole assembly should still over the plans). Now slide the outer panel up to W-6 again, this time working the spars into the notches in W-7. You may have to unclamp and wiggle W-7 around a bit to get it all to line up. But once it's lined up and the spars are in their notches (i.e spars are protruding through W-7 and again resting flush with W-6) re-clamp W-7 to W-6.

Still over the plan? Never stop checking that.

With everything aligned, and W-7 clamped to (and flush with) W-6, tack W-7 to the outer panel spars with thick CA and some accelerator. Once dry, unclamp. Now W-7 is perfectly aligned on the outer panel. Use more CA or epoxy to strengthen the bond between W-7 and the outer panel spars.
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Old 12-07-2008, 10:15 PM
  #188  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Now it's time to incorporate the wing tube. Cut the aluminum tube to length and place the wing tube in the center section.Now slide the outer panel back up to the center section again, this time relieving the wing tube holes in W-7, W-8 and W-9 as required. I used adhesive-backed, coarse-grit sandpaper wrapped around a 3/4" dowel to do this. Be sure to only remove a little material at a time so that the ribs fit as tightly as possible on the wing tube. Make sure the dihedral brace is still in place and that W-7 still fits flush against W-6.

Once the panel fits on the wing tube, remove it. Find the W-7 through W-9 doublers and reinstall the outer panel on the wing tube with doublers loosely in place next to their respective ribs. Re-clamp W-7 to W-6. When everything is aligned, epoxy (I used hysol) the doublers to the ribs, the top and bottom spars, and to the wing tube.

Once dry, remove the outer panel. Now the wing tube is permanently installed in the outer panel, the panels slide together perfectly and everything is still aligned over the plans.

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Old 12-07-2008, 10:27 PM
  #189  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

That's basically all I have done so far. I have the outer panels framed and fitted to the center section.

I still need to use a razor plane to shave down W-7 to match W-6 before I sheet the bottoms of the outer panels. I also need to install the alignment dowels towards the leading and trailing edges. I still have a fair amount of work remaining on the wing, but I feel like most of the tricky stuff is out of the way.

I just realized today that PCK sent me 36" lengths of 3/32 for wing sheeting, but the outer panels are about 42" wide. I have never tried to both edge glue and then butt glue sheeting together. Now I might have to send away for some 48" sheeting. I don't know, maybe I'll give the shorter stuff a try and see if butt-gluing works out. Anyone try this?

I also need some 1/2" cardboard tubes for the wiring... anyone know where this can be purchased?

Alright, that's it.... Some more photos below.

Hopefully by the end of the week I can start to get the wings buttoned up and I can begin framing the fuse.

Regards,

Noah
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Old 12-07-2008, 11:12 PM
  #190  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Butt gluing balsa sheets together just doesn’t work. No matter how good the joint is, it is never as strong as a continuous sheet. Don’t sacrifice the strength you get from being skin stressed. Also, the effective density of the wood at the joint is entirely different than the adjoining sheets. This won’t have any effect if the sheets are used flat but since you are trying to achieve a smooth curved surface, the sheet won’t bend uniformly along its length. Go with the longer sheet. Love your build. Dan.
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Old 12-07-2008, 11:29 PM
  #191  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Thanks for the confirmation, Dan.

I'll get some more wood on order

Man, I got a huge stack of 36" sheeting now!

Maybe the dogs will want it.
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Old 12-07-2008, 11:32 PM
  #192  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Noah, your leading the way for me. Glad to see your build is really going well. Now that you worked out my landing gear problem, my center section should now be a snap. Thanks my friend. Chic
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Old 12-08-2008, 09:45 AM
  #193  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Chic:

Where's the fit problem with the brakes? They were right up against the gear weren't they?

Dennis
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:45 PM
  #194  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Chic,

I hope that you and Dennis can sort out the brakes. Prehaps you can also add some hardwood shims (spacers, basically) between the retracts and the mounting rails in order to further lower the gear and get some more clearance.

Good luck and keep me posted.

Noah
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Old 12-08-2008, 11:10 PM
  #195  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Thanks Noah, I hope this weekend to have my center section done. You and Frank are moving so quickly but it is serving as a plan book for me to simply follow. Dennis, Glennis Aircraft, asked for the wheels and brakes to be sent back to him for a look ceee. They will be in Tuesday's mail to him. Meanwhile, I will put an 1 5/8" balsa block on the landing gear where the wheel would be located and secure the gear housing in W-2 and W-4 using the 3.5" restriction. I'm behind and I do not like it. Dennis said, the Pacific Battle is not over. I believe him but I can not hold up construction any longer. Chic
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:46 AM
  #196  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Great work Charlie! I'm a few days late discussing the dummy engines, but I've had pretty good luck with the Williams Bros. Pratt & Whitney scale radials. I put a pair of them in my Ziroli D18. I have full circle cylinders except for the bottom two in order to clear the coil on the G-38's. They are all black plastic coming out of the box.......... Hope you enjoy ....Rick
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Old 12-09-2008, 07:13 PM
  #197  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Rick, really great looking scale engine. Did you use the Williams Bros cylinders and made your own mount for each or is that how the whole assembly built out? I'm trying to figure out how to do a double row or is that necessary for me to do? Chic
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Old 12-10-2008, 12:33 AM
  #198  
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Chic, thanks for the complement. The P&W kits come with the nose piece and crankcase as you see. Check their website to see if you can buy individual clylinders (14), or two complete engine kits. They can tell you the total engine dia. and whatever scale it is , but go by the dia. you need for a scale fit in the cowl. Doing a double row of 7 cyl. is possible, but you will have to fabricate you own crankcase from a 7 sided block of balsa. Figure out what the cyl. centerline measurement back from the front cyl. centerline to the rear cyl. centerline, and make sure you will have the depth needed to clear the flywheel on your engine. I had to get prop exstentions for the G-38's on my D-18 from Seirra, but it was worth it. You may be able to use the Areotech crankcase nose piece, if it's the right size. It's smooth where the pushrods go thru it, so you can drill your own holes where they belong. The Williams Bros. nose already has 9 pairs of pushrod bosses, so you would have to file them down and drill for seven pairs. Remember that you are going to cut the airflow to the engine by 90% with a double row dummy. Now, like the Hellcat, the cowl should have a lower inlet scoop below the round cutout. You WILL have to make a baffle to route whatever airflow that comes thru it directly to the engine cylinder (inverted ofcorse). This may possibly be the only sorce of airflow.....so be prepared for potential overheating issues on warm days.... a single 7 row dummy engine maybe more practical....atleast you will have all the cowl flaps opened for an adequate airflow exit. I used K&S tubing for all the pushrods and round sparkplug wiring loom. I drilled holes in the center of the spark plugs 1/16", 1/8" deep, and used 1/16" dia. solder with small shrink tubing. Only use the soldergun to shrink the tubing. Small brass nuts drilled 1/16" and squeezed onto the solder just tight enough not to slip=no glue joints. Hope this helps....Rick Simmons
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Old 12-10-2008, 09:45 PM
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Rick, will put all those tips to use, hope my engine looks as good as yours. Thanks. Speaking of engines, the muffler builder (Bold Muffler) needed me to mount the engine and cowl as they would be sitting in the airframe. So I constructed the engine box, mounted it to the firewall, securely, doweled the box to the firewall and to the hardwood triangular pieces. I then tiled the firewall with the 1 and 1/4" balsa blocks. I used the aileron stock to aid with circling the firewall. Investigating indirectly the mounting of the cowl that butts up to the balsa block ring. Trying to look at the plans to see if there is a noticeable gap between the firewall and cowl when it is butted to and mounted to the balsa ring. Thanks Noah, Frank, Gibb, and Ken for being there. Chic
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Old 12-10-2008, 09:46 PM
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Default RE: Charlie Kellogg's TBM Avenger Build

Of course, I will sand it all smooth and consistent when dry.
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